blue@cam.nist.gov (Jim Blue) (02/07/91)
Various books and pet stores have different opinions on clipping the wings of parrots and other cage birds. This sounds like a topic that should have generated heated discussion in the past. If so, does anyone have a summary? If not, feel free to comment. On general principles, it seems a practice to avoid, but perhaps there are convincing reasons.
fleming@acsu.buffalo.edu (christine m fleming) (02/07/91)
>Various books and pet stores have different opinions on clipping the >wings of parrots and other cage birds. This sounds like a topic that >should have generated heated discussion in the past. If so, does >anyone have a summary? If not, feel free to comment. On general >principles, it seems a practice to avoid, but perhaps there are >convincing reasons. MOST and practically ALL books/magazines/etc. tell you TO keep your bird's wings clipped. This is for safety reasons: ie.: your bird could fly out an open window and never come back, he could fly into a closed window and never recover, etc. I have mixed feelings on the subject myself. 2 of my 3 birds are UNclipped. Since they are so small, and because i live in a complex in which they would have NO chance of getting outdoors, they do what they want. They were clipped once and they never stopped trying to fly. (They were sad as far as i can tell...) But, these two birds came from another home, and had never been groomed/handled in their lives. They sit on fingers and shoulders now, and that much affection from them was hard won and is appreciated. The other bird has had CLIPPED wings for all his life. He is larger, and if he had full wings, would CRUISE. He's sort of a clutz, and i would expect him to bump into walls and whatnot if he went flying. So, unless i get another (larger) place where he has less chance of coming to harm, he will stay clipped. If you have a larger bird you may wish to keep him clipped for saftey's sake. OR, some keep them "half-clipped" because the bird becomes lethargic without the exercise flying provides. The list goes on and on, pro and con. Yes, some have heated opinions on the subject: the "I could never wound the beauty and NATURE of my birds" and the "You are a FOOL if you do not clip your bird, and he may get HURT" schools are out there. A path between the two (like in most things) is best. ...jones --
mm@lectroid.sw.stratus.com (Mike Mahler) (02/07/91)
In article <7022@fs2.cam.nist.gov> blue@cam.nist.gov (Jim Blue) writes: >Various books and pet stores have different opinions on clipping the >wings of parrots and other cage birds. This sounds like a topic that >should have generated heated discussion in the past. If so, does >anyone have a summary? If not, feel free to comment. On general >principles, it seems a practice to avoid, but perhaps there are >convincing reasons. Jim, Why do you think it's a practice to avoid? I feel the contrary is true. I'd like to mention that my personal philosophy is to let your avian vet (would you go to a gynecologist for a foot problem?) do the wing clipping at least twice a year. Most vets who have regular customers seem to charge a one time records fee/office visit for clippings and then a small charge for each visit that's only for a clipping. By letting the vet do it you will get the bird seen as often as it should be seen (ie: on a regular basis) by an avian vet. Of course, if you have many birds it could become expensive but then so can lab tests if it's ill and not taken care of quickly. PS: Did anyone catch the special on that show "911" about Angel Memorial last night? -- -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Support Our Troops: Check your tire pressure when you fill up! -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
duane@cbnewsj.att.com (duane.galensky) (02/07/91)
In article <7022@fs2.cam.nist.gov> blue@cam.nist.gov (Jim Blue) writes: >Various books and pet stores have different opinions on clipping the >wings of parrots and other cage birds. This sounds like a topic that >should have generated heated discussion in the past. If so, does >anyone have a summary? If not, feel free to comment. On general >principles, it seems a practice to avoid, but perhaps there are >convincing reasons. well, it certainly is an issue with interesting moral connotations. for clipping: every source i've encountered has always endorsed wing clipping for all pet birds, in fact, some almost militantly. the fact of the matter is these animals are pets, and they face almost certain mortal peril if they escape. also, some birds improve their temperment dramatically when they are unable to fly. most psittacines get ample exercise from climbing, walking, and playing (if their owners are responsible enough to make the proper provisions for this.) against: birds fly. it's their essence, their distinguishing characteristic. one can never be sure a clipped bird won't just fly away anyhow: some birds are very strong fliers and don't need many feathers to get airborne. the clipper therefore robs the bird of its birthright with no guarantees. my view: no question: clip your bird. i do not live in a jungle, and therefore cannot make the bird's life as it would be naturally. i make every attempt to make the bird as comfortable as possible given the circumstances, those circumstances being that it is a captive animal for whom i am totally responsible. escape is one concern, and it's true that clipping does not pose a guarantee, however, i check mine periodically and make necessary revisions. but even flying around the house can be very dangerous: stoves and other appliances pose constant threats. keeping the bird clipped keeps it with me long enough to let me change my mind about it: not clipping may not give me another chance. samantha has a cage the size of a refrigerator, and gets frequent opportunities to hoof it around the house and climb on the curtains, but always under my direct and constant supervision. i think she's a very happy cockatoo. duane
gbell@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Greg Bell) (02/07/91)
In article <7022@fs2.cam.nist.gov> blue@cam.nist.gov (Jim Blue) writes: >Various books and pet stores have different opinions on clipping the >wings of parrots and other cage birds. This sounds like a topic that My experience is limited (two parakeets) BUT I can't see why you wouldn't clip your beastie's wings: 1) You spent $800 and you really DON'T want him/her flying to the highest tree in your neighborhood. Besides, what if you said "I really hate Al" a lot, and your bird learned it, and Al's your neighbor who has the highest tree in his backyard :) ? 2) Birds can fly into mirrors, windows, stoves, and sharp objects around your home. 3) Its not like you paralyze them by clipping their wings - they can still climb and walk around. But you can keep an eye on them and catch 'em if need be. There. GBell gbell@ucsd
bsp@hpfcso.HP.COM (Bruce Spence) (02/08/91)
On the subject of clipping: Our three bird friends (a cockatiel, a
green-cheek conure and a white-front amazon) are all fully flighted by our
conscious decision. They are caged when we are away, and are closely
supervised when out. (Sometimes I wonder who is supervising whom! ;-} )
The green-cheek flies very little, and then only short distances; I suspect
s/he would suffer little from *being* clipped. One of the main reasons for
not doing so is the trauma associated with the clipping process. I am
unwilling to put my friends through this.
The cockatiel, on the other hand, being a nomadic beast by nature, flies a
great deal and seems to love it. I would hate to take this away from him
once he has gotten used to it. The amazon also flies only short distances,
though quite often, especially to find one of us when out of the room
momentarily. This has provided a lot of enjoyment for all of us, and seems
to have positively impacted our bonding, particularly with my wife.
A bit of training was necessary for the cockatiel to acquaint him with
windows, but the amazon voluntarily won't go near them.
I wouldn't imply that this is necessarily the 'right' way (I am coming to
doubt that there is one) but I believe it is right for us.
Bruce Spence
Hewlett-Packard
Fort Collins, Colorado
hpfibsp.fc.hp.comhelen@argosy.UUCP (Helen Kastner) (02/09/91)
just another opinion on clipping. First, my moloccan cockatoo is just too big to fly in my apt. Windows scare him, his wingspan is too big for hallways and doors, and he's a klutz, trying to land on picture frames. regarding trauma: He stands on edge of door, I lift and extend one wing, and start clipping away, using gardening pruning clippers, as scissors aren't heavy enough to cut the feather shaft cleanly. He shakes everything back into place when I'm done. I can see what I'm doing, and it doesn't bother him. Main trauma is I won't let him chew on the clipper handles. There's a big flock of mixed Amazons living in a park in San Francisco; I bet all those former owners wished they'd clipped a wing or two. hk helen@maspar.com MasPar Computer Corporation "Resistance is useless!" Sunnyvale, CA
cjqx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (02/09/91)
I, too, have elected not to clip my Umbrella Cockatoo's wings, although I certainly don't subscribe to this philosophy in general. Kala was imported at a fairly young age (3 months??) and is very friendly, but also quite timid. In addition to Kala, I have a dalmation and a siamese mix, so she rarely likes to leave the security of her cage. I have decided not to clip her wings, because the only places she has *ever* tried to fly are from her cage to the couch and back, or from the couch to the dining room table. She does not feel comfortable walking around on the floor, given the menagerie that usually hang out there. She doesn't appear to fly for the sake of flying, but to get to a specific location that she otherwise wouldn't feel safe going to. If she were a more outgoing bird, that was interested in exploring the house and flew very much, or if she felt safe walking around on the floor, I would reconsider. kate loomis
freds@legs.UUCP (Fred Sieg) (02/09/91)
in article <7022@fs2.cam.nist.gov>, blue@cam.nist.gov (Jim Blue) says: > > Various books and pet stores have different opinions on clipping the > wings of parrots and other cage birds. This sounds like a topic that > should have generated heated discussion in the past. If so, does > anyone have a summary? If not, feel free to comment. On general > principles, it seems a practice to avoid, but perhaps there are > convincing reasons. We keep our two cockatoos, Chantee and Zachary, partially clipped for safety. They are both free to roam in the house, so chances of getting hurt while flying are, IMHO, high. They also both go outside with us so we want to be sure they don't fly away. We have noticed that the only time they make any attempt to fly is when something frightens them. When we first got Chantee, we took her to a pet store for clipping. They clipped down too far and she got hurt falling. We now do it ourselves, clipping only enough to keep them from gaining altitude. Depending on the tameness of your bird, doing it yourself can be easy or a real chore. Chantee will hold her wing out with only a little nudge and clip, clip, clip. Zachary has to be occupied by one of us while the other "does the deed". When doing it yourself, be careful of blood feathers and experiment by clipping a few of the flight feathers at a time until your bird can still glide down gracefully but not be able to flap up. You can always clip some more but you must wait months for regrowth. We leave the two outermost flight feathers intact and clip the following half dozen or so down to the tips of the next layer. This doesn't seem to hurt their appearance when the wings are tucked in either. Have never noticed any psychological effect on either of them. They don't really seem all that interested in flying anyway. Fred -- Fred Sieg | freds@ast.com -or- ...!uunet!legs!freds AST Research Inc. | Fax: (714) 727-9358 Tel: (714) 727-8465 If any opinions were expressed, they are my own and not those of my employer (who would NEVER express an opinion).
freds@legs.UUCP (Fred Sieg) (02/10/91)
in article <1991Feb6.231825.29272@cbnewsj.att.com>, duane@cbnewsj.att.com (duane.galensky) says: > > In article <7022@fs2.cam.nist.gov> blue@cam.nist.gov (Jim Blue) writes: > > every source i've encountered has always endorsed wing > most psittacines get ample exercise from climbing, > walking, and playing (if their owners are responsible enough > to make the proper provisions for this.) My cockatoos excercise their wings by holding on to cage/perch/me and flapping away. Clipping has never interfered with this behavior. > against: > > birds fly. it's their essence, their distinguishing characteristic. > one can never be sure a clipped bird won't just fly away > anyhow: some birds are very strong fliers and don't need many > feathers to get airborne. the clipper therefore robs > the bird of its birthright with no guarantees. > As I stated in another followup, my observations have been the only time they try to take flight is when they are frightened by something or because they lose their balance/grip. In the former case, you want to be sure that the bird can't fly off in a panic and get lost and/or unreachable. In the latter case, you want to provide enough flight ability to serve as a safety net. > i think she's a very happy cockatoo. Sounds it. I know both of mine are. Fred -- Fred Sieg | freds@ast.com -or- ...!uunet!legs!freds AST Research Inc. | Fax: (714) 727-9358 Tel: (714) 727-8465 If any opinions were expressed, they are my own and not those of my employer (who would NEVER express an opinion).
susans@cfi.COM (susans) (02/13/91)
In article <3215@legs.UUCP> freds@legs.UUCP (Fred Sieg) writes: >in article <7022@fs2.cam.nist.gov>, blue@cam.nist.gov (Jim Blue) says: >> >We leave the two outermost flight feathers intact and clip the following >half dozen or so down to the tips of the next layer. This doesn't seem >to hurt their appearance when the wings are tucked in either. > Please note that this will NOT work on a cockatiel. Notoriously strong fliers, mine need only one flight feather on each side to fly across my (large) livingroom. Particularly if you plan (don't) on taking your cockatiel outside, you really need to clip ALL the flights. One of my birds is obsessed with me, and when I decided to (just once) let his wings grow in, he flew across the room, landed on my friend's face, and started to peck at his eyes--he was giving me a goodbye hug at the time. It was terrifying for all of us. Needless to say, Flipper will NEVER fly free again. -- Susan S. (susans@cfi.com) Another Friend of Bill's
stewartw@cognos.UUCP (Stewart Winter) (02/13/91)
In article <3215@legs.UUCP> freds@legs.UUCP (Fred Sieg) writes: >We leave the two outermost flight feathers intact and clip the following >half dozen or so down to the tips of the next layer. This doesn't seem >to hurt their appearance when the wings are tucked in either. It should be noted that birds clipped in this manner often can get lift if they are in a breeze and can travel several miles very quickly. If you lived in a downtown area (where buildings can create a wind-tunnel effect) or in a rural area, it really is better to cut the last two primaries. Stewart -- Stewart Winter Cognos Incorporated S-mail: P.O. Box 9707 VOICE: (613) 738-1338 x3830 FAX: (613) 738-0002 3755 Riverside Drive UUCP: stewartw%cognos.uucp@ccs.carleton.ca Ottawa, Ontario The bird of the day is .... Illiger's Macaw CANADA K1G 3Z4
linco@eng.umd.edu (Sam C. Lin) (02/15/91)
My cockatiel is an avid flyer - he is simply breathtaking the way he zooms about my house. It is a shame that just as soon has he reaches top speed, he has to turn away from the wall. I have clipped him a few times, because of his reluctance to return to his cage, and it has upset him a great deal not to be able to fly well (he can fly even with fully clipped wings, although not very well). I would never think of fully depriving him of his flight again - it seems that flying is the pastime which brings him most pleasure. He never flys into windows - he's too smart for that - but he does tend to chew up all my books. on the other hand, I had a lutino cockatiel who would fly blindly into walls and windows, and was clearly going to break her neck, so I kept her clipped. Unfortunately, clipping has its dangers, too. She could still launch herself, clipped wings and all, into crevices behind bookcases or onto my cactus. In fact, my goffin's cockatoo (who is clipped) often hurts his feet when he jumps onto my hard stone floors. I sometimes see him limping a little after a particularly bad fall. Therefore, I am going to try letting him grow his flights back (he was clipped when I bought him, and I am waiting for his first molt). So clipping should be considered on a case by case basis. My belief is that it is cruel to clip a bird unless it is clearly going to hurt itself otherwise. This argument that birds will fly away is a crock of cow turds. If you are too careless to keep your windows and doors closed when the bird is out, maybe you are too careless to own one. And taking a bird outside even with clipped wings is stupid if the bird is of a species that flies particularly well. Any cockatiel with clipped wings can easily catch the slightest breeze, and disappear in seconds. Sam Lin
ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) (02/16/91)
In article <1991Feb14.165445.23866@eng.umd.edu> linco@eng.umd.edu (Sam C. Lin) writes: >So clipping should be considered on a case by case basis. My belief >is that it is cruel to clip a bird unless it is clearly going to hurt >itself otherwise. This argument that birds will fly away is a crock >of cow turds. If you are too careless to keep your windows and doors >closed when the bird is out, maybe you are too careless to own one. >And taking a bird outside even with clipped wings is stupid if the >bird is of a species that flies particularly well. Any cockatiel with >clipped wings can easily catch the slightest breeze, and disappear in >seconds. In my opinion, this is a highly simplistic attitude. Accidents DO happen. If bird ownership is restricted to people who never make mistakes and never have accidents, nobody would own birds. Having an opinion is one thing, but berating other people's opinions is not useful to this discussion. The fact is, accidents DO happen, and birds DO fly away. Every week, at least two birds are listed as "lost" in my local bird shop. Perhaps these people were "too careless", but more likely they made a mistake. *My* belief is that it is cruel NOT to clip wings unless you know for a fact that you are so perfect that you could never make such a mistake, AND you know for a fact that your bird will never harm itself flying in the house. All my pets are clipped. Mikki Barry Natural Intelligence Aviaries Home of the Electric Cockatoo
evelyn@uts.amdahl.com (Evelyn Mast) (02/16/91)
In article <1991Feb14.165445.23866@eng.umd.edu> linco@eng.umd.edu (Sam C. Lin) writes: > >In fact, my goffin's cockatoo (who is clipped) often hurts his feet >when he jumps onto my hard stone floors. I sometimes see him limping >a little after a particularly bad fall. Therefore, I am going to try >letting him grow his flights back (he was clipped when I bought him, >and I am waiting for his first molt). > >So clipping should be considered on a case by case basis. My belief > >Sam Lin I agree that wing clipping should be done on a case by case basis. It depends on the bird (both breed and temperament) and the living environment. We also have a goffin's cockatoo. We kept his wings clipped for the first 4 years that we had him, and occassionally would take him outside. A couple years ago we decided to go ahead and let his feathers grow out. We have a 2500 sq. ft. house, and no kids (yup - DINKs). He is really clever on the wing. The only time that he has bonked into anything is when startled, which has only happened a couple of times. He generally follows me around the house, and knows which rooms I'm likely to be in. He'll fly down the hall and hover at the end until he's had a chance to look both directions to see where I am. His favorite sport (aside from chewing all the toys we give him) is to buzz my head. He'll fly straight out across my head and lower his feet on my hair as he passes, then do a quick u-turn and land on my shoulder. So sometimes I tease him by ducking as he comes close. He's in his cage whenever we have guests, when we are in-n-out of the back door, and when we can't supervise him (either by eye or ear). Sorry for rambling. Evelyn -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Evelyn Mast evelyn@amdahl.com I didn't mean it - I swear evelyn@key.amdahl.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
linco@eng.umd.edu (Sam C. Lin) (02/16/91)
In article <27BC1320.3C83@intercon.com> ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) writes: >In article <1991Feb14.165445.23866@eng.umd.edu> linco@eng.umd.edu (Sam C. Lin) writes: >>So clipping should be considered on a case by case basis. My belief >>is that it is cruel to clip a bird unless it is clearly going to hurt >>itself otherwise. This argument that birds will fly away is a crock >>of cow turds. If you are too careless to keep your windows and doors >>closed when the bird is out, maybe you are too careless to own one. >>And taking a bird outside even with clipped wings is stupid if the >>bird is of a species that flies particularly well. Any cockatiel with >>clipped wings can easily catch the slightest breeze, and disappear in >>seconds. > >In my opinion, this is a highly simplistic attitude. Accidents DO happen. >If bird ownership is restricted to people who never make mistakes and never >have accidents, nobody would own birds. Having an opinion is one thing, >but berating other people's opinions is not useful to this discussion. >The fact is, accidents DO happen, and birds DO fly away. Every week, at >least two birds are listed as "lost" in my local bird shop. Perhaps these >people were "too careless", but more likely they made a mistake. > >*My* belief is that it is cruel NOT to clip wings unless you know for >a fact that you are so perfect that you could never make such a mistake, >AND you know for a fact that your bird will never harm itself flying in >the house. All my pets are clipped. Considering birds on a case-by-case basis is *not* a simplistic attitude. A simplistic attitude is to assume that all birds are too stupid to handle not having their wings clipped. Birds do not have arms so that they may fly; taking away their ability to fly is taking away one of their greatest enjoyments. More importantly, as I mentioned in my previous posting, my own experience is that some birds HARM THEMSELVES when they have clipped wings, by attempting to fly, and then losing their breath and crashing. My lovebird, whose wings I clipped recently, managed to fly 7 feet upwards, run out of breath, and fall, bouncing off her cage, a table, and onto the floor! She was very lucky not to have broken any bones, especially her neck! Therefore, *IMHO*, clipping birds indiscriminately can sometimes cause them unnecessary danger. There are far more dangers in a house that a bird is exposed to besides flying into windows and getting loose outside. A bird owner must carefully consider the circumstances of each bird in order to decide to clip or not to clip. Mind you, I agree that clipping is called for in some circumstances. Sam Lin
ooblick@intercon.com (Mikki Barry) (02/18/91)
In article <1991Feb15.233832.9126@eng.umd.edu> linco@eng.umd.edu (Sam C. Lin) writes: >Considering birds on a case-by-case basis is *not* a simplistic >attitude. A simplistic attitude is to assume that all birds are too >stupid to handle not having their wings clipped. Birds do not have >arms so that they may fly; taking away their ability to fly is taking >away one of their greatest enjoyments. More importantly, as I mentioned in >my previous posting, my own experience is that some birds HARM >THEMSELVES when they have clipped wings, by attempting to fly, and >then losing their breath and crashing. My lovebird, whose wings I >clipped recently, managed to fly 7 feet upwards, run out of breath, >and fall, bouncing off her cage, a table, and onto the floor! She was >very lucky not to have broken any bones, especially her neck! >Therefore, *IMHO*, clipping birds indiscriminately can sometimes cause >them unnecessary danger. There are far more dangers in a house that a >bird is exposed to besides flying into windows and getting loose >outside. A bird owner must carefully consider the circumstances of >each bird in order to decide to clip or not to clip. Mind you, I >agree that clipping is called for in some circumstances. I was referring to the contention that birds flying away is "a load of cow turds". THAT is what I consider to be a simplistic attitude. Even the tamest of birds can be startled into making for the highest tree. Mikki Barry
HCM100@psuvm.psu.edu (Hans C. Masing) (02/19/91)
When I clip the wings on my doves that I use for magic, I clip every other flight feather. This keeps the birds looking better than if all of the feathers were clipped, and limits the flying to a controlled glide. This is for their own safety. I often produce the birds from pans of flame (harmless to the birds, I assure you) and other places. Sometimes the audience reaction (I do magic mostly for Kids) can startle the birds more than anything. What would I do if they took of for the highest rafters in the school auditorium? In the case of my birds, as I believe in the case of most birds who are in possibly dangerous situations from flying, clipping should be considered on a case by case basis. My doves show no tendancy to fly away, but JUST IN CASE, I keep them clipped. Off season, however, in the summertime, I let the feathers grow (ie-after the spring moult) and keep them in a closed off area of my patio. They don't tend to fly too much anyway, so clipping in their case doesn't seem so bad. On a humorous note, and on a change of subject, I discovered that if I hold a deck of cards in from of the female dove, she will pull a single card from the deck. Very humorous, but will she continue this behaviour after she is done nesting? Is there any way to "train" doves to do this? Thanks, Hans. *-----------------------------------*----------------------------------* | INTERNET: HCM100 @ PSUVM.psu.edu | "In all things it is a good idea | *-----------------------------------| to hang a question mark now and | | Hans Christopher Masing | then on the things we have taken | | 3732 Beech Avenue | for granted." -Bertrand Russel | | Erie, Pennsylvania 16508 *----------------------------------* *----------------------------------*