jms@brahms.udel.edu (John Milbury-Steen) (05/31/91)
I have been interested in the discussion about whether the birds "know who is feeding them." Are you sure they are not simply doing a mechanical Pavlovian response, such as "presence of this guy" means "food is on the way"? It may be even more simple-minded, since they apparently will not recognize you without the right jacket: "sight of red jacket" indicates "food is on the way." Of course we all like to be loved, and it is normal to project gratitude onto our bird friends, but a little positive conditioning could simulate affection, could it not? It is quite a leap from this statement: "when the birds see my red jacket, they wait for food" to this conclusion: "the birds know that I am feeding them" or even more radical conclusions: "the birds are grateful to me and love me." (I know this is provocative and don't mind a lot of flames.) -- | John Milbury-Steen (302)451-2698 jms@sun.acs.udel.edu | | Office of Academic Computing and Instructional Technology | | University of Delaware Newark DE 19716 | | "Intelligence goes senile, repentence lasts forever." |
drintoul@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (David A Rintoul) (06/01/91)
In article <21828@brahms.udel.edu> jms@brahms.udel.edu (John Milbury-Steen) writes: >I have been interested in the discussion about whether the birds "know >who is feeding them." > >Are you sure they are not simply doing a mechanical Pavlovian response, >such as "presence of this guy" means "food is on the way"? It may be >even more simple-minded, since they apparently will not recognize you >without the right jacket: "sight of red jacket" indicates "food is on >the way." > >Of course we all like to be loved, and it is normal to project gratitude >onto our bird friends, but a little positive conditioning could simulate >affection, could it not? > >It is quite a leap from this statement: > >"when the birds see my red jacket, they wait for food" > >to this conclusion: > >"the birds know that I am feeding them" > >or even more radical conclusions: > >"the birds are grateful to me and love me." Absolutely right. A classic case occurs in colonies of nesting birds. I don't remember the source, but several years back I heard about a person doing research in a gull colony on the Farallon Islands. He always wore a specific stocking cap, and the gulls responded by mobbing that stocking cap, no matter whose head it adorned. When the same person appeared without the stocking cap, he was not treated so viciously. It is a real stretch to think that "your" birds recognize you as the source of "their" food, and appreciate you for providing it. They might recognize certain aspects of your face, if it is truly memorable, but it is unlikely that you would be picked out of a crowd by any of the birds that hang around your feeder.... -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Dave Rintoul drintoul@matt.ksu.ksu.edu Biology Division - KSU id2418 on TCN Manhattan KS 66506-4901 FAX: (913)-532-6653 (913)-532-5832 or 6663 -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Speed is more important when you are skating on thin ice...
gwynne@milton.u.washington.edu (Kristan Geissel) (06/01/91)
In article <21828@brahms.udel.edu> jms@brahms.udel.edu (John Milbury-Steen) writes: >Are you sure they are not simply doing a mechanical Pavlovian response, >such as "presence of this guy" means "food is on the way"? It may be >even more simple-minded, since they apparently will not recognize you >without the right jacket: "sight of red jacket" indicates "food is on >the way." > >Of course we all like to be loved, and it is normal to project gratitude >onto our bird friends, but a little positive conditioning could simulate >affection, could it not? > You're right, of course, as I pointed out in my story about the crow. But the first coot that I adopted went through stages of not recognizing the different coats to recognizing me - period. Also, it was the only one to respond to "Is that my coot?". I am not being facetious when I ask this: at what point does a Pavlovian response stop being that? Was it when we got past the different "feathers" or was it when it started recognizing my voice? Did I turn into an outsized, funny looking coot to it, with a different call or was it still merely fine tuning it's mechanical response to a higher scale? I still haven't been able to figure that out even having fed it now for three seasons. And regardless of it being a Pavlovian response or not, I will always treasure sitting on an old boat house with my coot snoozing at my feet. Any bird psychologists out there who could answer the question posed above? :) Kristan Geissel
e343gv@tamuts.tamu.edu (Gary Varner) (06/06/91)
In article <1991May31.195256.4285@maverick.ksu.ksu.edu> drintoul@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (David A Rintoul) writes: >I don't remember the source, but several years back I heard about a >person doing research in a gull colony on the Farallon Islands. He >always wore a specific stocking cap, and the gulls responded by mobbing >that stocking cap, no matter whose head it adorned. When the same person >appeared without the stocking cap, he was not treated so viciously. In NATURAL HISTORY magazine for 6/88 Larry Spear, researching gulls on the Farallon islands argues that they recognized his FACE not his characteristic CAP. After extensive banding of the birds by him caused them to fly in histeria above the rookery everytime he appeared (making it impossible to continue his research on nesting behavior) he tried: 1) wearing different clothes and a mask, 2) wearing a mask but different clothes, and 3) wearing different clothes but no mask. In scenario (1) no reaction occurred, in scenario (2) none, but in (3) there was the usual bedlam; from which he concluded that they were recognizing his FACE. He ended up wearing a painted-on clown's mask to cntinue his research. What you may be remembering is that when, under scenario (2), he wore his characteristic cap, "a mild distress response ensued" (p. 8). But because bedlam ensued when he went out dressed entirely differently (and in fact walking with a limp) but without the mask, he concluded that they recognize FACES. _________________________________________________________________ | | |____ Gary Varner "I just don't have much use | | ___| | Philosophy for people who stand around | | \ * | Texas A&M in coats and ties | | \/\ / e343gv@tamuts.tamu.edu and sip sherry" | |_____\___/_______________________________________________________|
drintoul@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (David A Rintoul) (06/06/91)
Gary Varner (e343gv@tamuts.tamu.edu) writes: >In NATURAL HISTORY magazine for 6/88 Larry Spear, researching gulls >on the Farallon islands argues that they recognized his FACE not his >characteristic CAP. Mea culpa. I should have known better to try to remember this factoid without looking up the reference. Thanks for straightening me out. I hope to do better next time. Dave Rintoul drintoul@matt.ksu.ksu.edu Biology Division Kansas State University, Manhattan KS 66506-4901