[rec.video] Workstations that can record/play realtime video

milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) (11/10/89)

I'm looking for a computer/video workstation with the following capabilities.

1. Ability to record/playback video (at least VHS-recorder quality) and
   store the video on disk in DIGITAL form.

2. Ability to store about 1 hour of video.

3. Capability to do simple manipulations of video data in real-time.

4. Ability to do more complicated manipulations of data a frame at a time.

5. The ability to record video a frame at a time without undue wear.


What I'm interested in using it for is video production and editing, including
preperation of animations and composite video images.

I understand the Quantel "Harry" machine has capabilities like this, I'd be
interested in hearing more about "Harry" or about any other gadget that
can provide these capabilities.

Greg Corson
19141 Summers Drive
South Bend, IN 46637
(219) 277-5306
{uunet, rutgers}!iuvax!ndmath!milo
milo@ndmath
GEnie:  GCORSON

rick@hanauma.stanford.edu (Richard Ottolini) (11/10/89)

In article <1593@ndmath.UUCP> milo@ndmath.UUCP (Greg Corson) writes:
>I'm looking for a computer/video workstation with the following capabilities.
>1. Ability to record/playback video (at least VHS-recorder quality) and
>   store the video on disk in DIGITAL form.
>2. Ability to store about 1 hour of video.

VHS quality 24 bits x 640 pixels x 480 lines x 30 Hertz x 3600 seconds
is 100 gigabytes uncompressed.
Sun TAAC compresses digital video to 5-10%, but this is still a lot of
storage.
The now defunct company called PEL offered a system in 1980 with one minute
of video using a gigabyte disk farm.
The National Supercomputer Center uses an Abacus (spelling?) system for
digital video loops on the order of a minute.
The Connection Machine plus Data Vault can store hour long movies at this
resolution, but is expensive.   It is an impressive digital movie machine.

jonson@zorro.megatek.uucp (Henrik Jonson) (11/11/89)

FYI - follow comp.sys.amiga and -.tech, for 'low-cost' versions.

smp@sei.cmu.edu (Stan Przybylinski) (11/11/89)

Digital video interactive (DVI) from Intel can do this stuff but it
currently isn't low cost. 

*---------------------------------------*-----------------------------------*
*Stan Przybylinski (Prez-ba-lin-ski)	*These views do not represent those *
*Software Engineering Institute		*of Carnegie Mellon, the SEI, the   *
*Carnegie Mellon University		*DoD or possibly even the author.   *
*Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3890		*                                   *
*smp@sei.cmu.edu   (412) 268-6371	*All the fits, that's news to print.*
*---------------------------------------*-----------------------------------*

efo@pixar.uucp (efo) (11/14/89)

Currently, one of the few machines that can handle digital video-like
information at these rates is the Abekas A60 family ($60K). The Abekas,
as some posters have noted, can sit on the the ethernet, and you can
send stuff to it that way.  Note the spelling of "Abekas".
Note that most workstations (as such: Suns, Irises, etc.) either
in themselves or as hosts to accelerators or framebuffers (TAACs,
Pixar Image Computers) cannot do accurate real-time playback.  In those
few cases where they have enough bandwidth to handle, on average,
30 fps,  they cannot deliver a consistant 30 fps (due, usually,
to the scheduling of jobs under Unix.) For us this is a serious problem
and precludes their use for playback - for you this may not be the case.
Oftentimes, disk or framebuffer
bandwidth is a bottleneck, too, of course.

A cheap way to get low-grade single-frame NTSC with realtime playback,
as described, is with a Panasonic or similar write-once video disk.
These machines are in the $10K range, and can be controlled via an RS232
port. Even that's not so cheap.

The other option is a professional video setup (>$100K).

As you might imagine, this has been a serious issue for the animation group
at Pixar.  If there are new alternatives, we'd love to know more.
Eben Ostby

MJB@cup.portal.com (Martin J Brown-Jr) (11/19/89)

If you're talking $60k for an Abekas, why not just get a D2 digital 
recorder. A couple of years ago at a NAB(?) convention, a D2 machine was
about $80k, a bit more than 1/2 the previous year's D1 recorder. D2 
machines are getting popular at post houses here in Hollywood, and
maybe the price is even more reasonable (!?   :->  )

                                  - MJB -

wayneck@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Wayne Knapp) (11/22/89)

In article <24213@cup.portal.com>, MJB@cup.portal.com (Martin J Brown-Jr) writes:
> If you're talking $60k for an Abekas, why not just get a D2 digital 
> recorder. A couple of years ago at a NAB(?) convention, a D2 machine was
> about $80k, a bit more than 1/2 the previous year's D1 recorder. D2 
> machines are getting popular at post houses here in Hollywood, and
> maybe the price is even more reasonable (!?   :->  )
> 
>                                   - MJB -

This sounds very interesting.  Just what is a D2 machine and where
does one find more information.  Is is possible to use a computer to
write in memory of the recorder and then record that frame to video
tape.  What kind of format would be used? 

I've started to learn about digital video.  I'm really interested in 
recorder that a RAM frame buffer that could be written to by a computer
and sinlge framed on to video tape.  Also if the video from the frame
buffer could be displayed this would allow one to do animation with almost
any kind of computer.  Is this kind of thing even possible today?  Can
this be bought for less than $5000?

                                   Thank you,
                                     Wayne Knapp 

malcolm@Apple.COM (Malcolm Slaney) (11/29/89)

In article <24213@cup.portal.com> MJB@cup.portal.com (Martin J Brown-Jr) writes:
>If you're talking $60k for an Abekas, why not just get a D2 digital 
>recorder. 

Has anybody tried using a write once video disk?  Do any of the writer/readers
do single frame stuff?  I don't know anything about them but if they don't cost
very much you can throw away a lot of used discs for $60k.

We have both Abekas and D2's here on campus but we are limited by the network
interfaces.  I've had better luck writing images to a frame buffer and then
using a relatively slow Umatic deck to put it on video tape.

Cheers.

					Malcolm Slaney
					Apple Speech and Hearing Project

rick@hanauma.stanford.edu (Richard Ottolini) (11/29/89)

Some numbers from a Bay Area talk by Industrial Light and Magic today:
They work with film resolutions from 640 x 480 to 3200 x 2300 at 24
frames a second and 36 bit color.  They can store about 10-15 seconds per
2.2 GB Exabyte tapes.

milazzo@bbn.com (Paul Milazzo) (11/30/89)

malcolm@Apple.COM (Malcolm Slaney) asks:

>Has anybody tried using a write once video disk?  Do any of the writer/readers
>do single frame stuff?

I've used a Panasonic TQ-3031F (list price k$18) to do single-frame
animation recording; it's very easy.  I'm not completely happy with the
quality, though; occasional frames have one or two tiny, brightly-colored
specks.  I have a *very* early model of the recorder, and was using the
blank disc that came with it, so I might just have experienced early disc
manufacturing problems.

For the curious, I'll include a few TQ-3031F specs:

disc geometry:  54000 frames/side normal, 36000 frames/side hi-res
resolution:     >380 lines normal, >450 lines hi-res
video S/N:      >45 dB
audio S/N:      >70 dB
recording mode: luminance: FM    color: FM R-Y, B-Y line sequential
video inputs:   composite, S-video, RGB+sync, dubbing, sync, SC
video outputs:  composite, S-video, RGB+sync, dubbing
audio I/O:      stereo (~300mV unbalanced)
control port:   RS-232C, typical industrial videodisc command set

				Paul Milazzo <milazzo@bbn.com>
				BBN Systems & Technologies
				Cambridge, MA

good@pixar.uucp (The Ice Cream truck in my neighborhood plays Helter Skelter.) (12/01/89)

In article <36840@apple.Apple.COM> malcolm@Apple.COM (Malcolm Slaney) writes:
:
:Has anybody tried using a write once video disk?  Do any of the writer/readers
:do single frame stuff?  I don't know anything about them but if they don't cost
:very much you can throw away a lot of used discs for $60k.

We do single-frame stuff now and then.  Our Panasonic TQ-2026F Optical Disc
Recorder is at least pretty fast.  You get 24,000 frames on each 8" disc.
The machine is controllable via rs232, so it's pretty easy to make it dance.
The main drawback is the image quality: it really bites.  I mean, it makes
VHS look good.  Still, it's a useful tool for checking animation and is
a lot cheaper than an Abekas, which is why we have two of them.


		--Craig
		...{ucbvax,sun}!pixar!good

	Armed, you are a citizen.  Unarmed, you are a subject.

bio_zwbb@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (William Busa) (12/01/89)

In article <7925@pixar.UUCP> good@pixar.uucp writes:
>
>We do single-frame stuff now and then.  Our Panasonic TQ-2026F Optical Disc
>Recorder is at least pretty fast.  You get 24,000 frames on each 8" disc.
>The machine is controllable via rs232, so it's pretty easy to make it dance.
>The main drawback is the image quality: it really bites. 

	For those who need higher image quality, check out the Panasonic
TQ-2028F. It is a modified version of the 2026 discussed above, intended,
I guess, for medical and scientific applications. The resolution is 450
horizontal lines, S/N is 45 dB minimum. Best price I found was $12,500 via
Adco Aerospace, Ft. Lauderdale, FL. Quality is certainly better than VHS,
and the most important point is that it is particularly suitable for
single frame stuff, since single-frame playback displays NO flagging and
doesn't eat up the physical medium the way video tape is eaten by still
playback. THE CATCH: the increased resolution (vs the 2026) is due to the
fact that this machine records and plays MONOCHROME only.
-- 
Dr. William Busa, Dept. of Biology, The Johns Hopkins University, Charles
& 34th Sts., Baltimore, MD 21218              (301) 338-8207

bio_zwbb@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu                 uunet!mimsy!jhunix!bio_zwbb

berry@lll-crg.llnl.gov (Berry Kercheval) (12/08/89)

In article <36840@apple.Apple.COM> malcolm@Apple.COM (Malcolm Slaney) writes:
>In article <24213@cup.portal.com> MJB@cup.portal.com (Martin J Brown-Jr) writes:
>>If you're talking $60k for an Abekas, why not just get a D2 digital 
>>recorder. 
>Has anybody tried using a write once video disk?  Do any of the writer/readers
>do single frame stuff?  I don't know anything about them but if they don't cost
>very much you can throw away a lot of used discs for $60k.

The Panasonic TQ-3031 comes with a RS-232 port and a transcoder built in (!).
It will take RGB at NTSC rates directly.

I was able to interface it to our computers in about 2 hours, most of
which was spent figuring out that I needed DTR brought through the
null modem...

The disks cost from $200-$400 each, and are good for about 30 minutes.
The unit itself is in the  $20,000 neighborhood.

  --berry
--
bERRY Kercheval :: berry@lll-crg.llnl.gov