Sun-Spots-Request@RICE.EDU (William LeFebvre) (08/30/88)
SUN-SPOTS DIGEST Monday, 29 August 1988 Volume 6 : Issue 205
Today's Topics:
Introduction to this issue
Re: Sun OS and 4.3 Networking
Sun monitor/keyboard extensions -- summary
SunOS source license (academic) -- summary
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Date: Sun, 28 Aug 88 15:46:15 CDT
From: William LeFebvre <phil@Rice.edu>
Subject: Introduction to this issue
This issue is a little different. There is one message that could be
considered loosely related to Sun-Spots and there are two messages that
are summaries of queries made earlier in this forum. The summaries are
rather long, but the information is important to those who might need it.
Some people may wich to skip this issue altogether. Enjoy!
William LeFebvre
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Aug 88 20:21:26 EDT
From: scs%lokkur.UUCP@umix.cc.umich.edu (Steve Simmons)
Subject: Re: Sun OS and 4.3 Networking
I'm not sure this is grist for Sun-Spots, but since it started here...
doug@icase.arpa (Doug Peterson) writes:
>I've seen a lot of negative comments about Sun's unwillingness to port
>(incorporate) 4.3BSD networking capabilities into their operating system.
>...
>It strikes me that the time is near for such individuals to converge and
>produce the Berkeley equivalent of an OS for a distributed computing
>system....
A good idea, and possibly even doable. If you look at the more successful
software distributed on the net, almost every piece has some central
person or group who all users regard as "the moderator". This person
keeps track of releases, co-ordinates the patches, manages the discussion
groups, and so forth. As examples, look at MIT for X, Dave Taylor for
elm, and the Free Software Foundation for gcc.
There are two problems with BSD networking and this sort of publicly
supported software. First, there is no obvious candidate to do the job.
Lots of folks (more than 10) are probably technically qualified, but no
*obvious* candidate. Second, someone has to support the supporter. It
takes a lot of time and effort to do this stuff, and if your employer
wants you to do "productive" work (they're funny like that) it can be too
much to handle.
So -- I have a radical proposal. We should try to get a funded position
or positions for someone to do the work on a regular basis. The
position(s) should be placed with an institution already recognised in
networks and/or research and exist for the sole purpose of producing and
supporting PUBLIC DOMAIN (as opposed to restricted redistributable)
networking code.
One obvious candidate for funding such is DEC, but there are lots of
others. Nor is any company *required* to carry the whole thing; a
consortium of four or five companies could do it very well. Obvious
places to put it are UCB, C-Mellon, or even my own employer (ITI/Univ. of
Michigan).
So -- you folks who work for corporate entities should get out there and
start pushing. Those of us who work for research places should get out
and start pulling. Maybe between us we can actually pull this off.
Steve Simmons
Systems Support Manager
Industrial Technology Institute
Ann Arbor, MI. 313-769-4086
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 88 14:15:23 EDT
From: Daniel R. Ehrlich <ehrlich@blitz.cs.psu.edu>
Subject: Sun monitor/keyboard extensions -- summary
Attached are the responses I have recieved to date regarding extending Sun
monitors and keyboards. Thank you to everyone who responded to my
original request.
--Dan Ehrlich
=> From: "Doug Arnold" <dna@emmy.umd.edu>
=>
=> Here is a submission on the same subject from an old Sun-Spots
=> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
=> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 87 07:12:24 EST
=> >From: crepea@spam.istc.sri.com
=> Subject: Re: Sun consoles and keyboards
=>
=> > From: John L. Shelton <jshelton@ads.arpa>
=> > To: crepea@spam.istc.sri.com
=> > Subject: Your request about Sun consoles and kbds
=> >
=> > We regularly run Sun color consoles 100 feet away with ribbon cable
=> > extensions for the keyboard, and normal RG-59U coax for the video. You
=> > should be able to go to 1000 feet on the video, but I haven't tried. (If
=> > necessary, you can get low-loss coax.)
=> >
=> > I suspect the keyboard can be extended further if you build some gauge 20
=> > cables to do the job. Make sure you get low capacitance cable.
=> >
=> > =John=
=>
=> John,
=>
=> We have successfully remoted the keyboard 500` with 22g shielded pair
=> cable. The voltage drop was less than .4v for the 5v line.
=>
=> We used 500` rolls of Belden 8281 cable to remote the video. The picture
=> was fair, but slightly blurred. We are going to look at better connectors
=> for both the monitor/cpu and the cables. We are also looking at some
=> video compensation amplifiers on the market. These are EXPENSIVE.
=>
=> Ken C.
=>
=> ------------------------------------------------------------------
=> This pin definitions may also be useful to you:
=> Pin definitions for keyboard and video.
=>
=> Keyboard pinout
=>
=> pin signal
=>
=> 1 RXD0(keyboard)
=> 2 GND
=> 3 TXD0(keyboard)
=> 4 GND
=> 5 RXD1(mouse)
=> 6 GND
=> 7 TXD1(mouse)
=> 8 GND
=> 9 GND
=> 10 VCC
=> 11 VCC
=> 12 VCC
=> 13 OPEN
=> 14 VCC
=> 15 VCC
=>
=>
=>
=> Video pinout
=>
=> pin signal
=>
=> 1 Video+
=> 2 Open
=> 3 HSync
=> 4 VSync
=> 5 Open
=> 6 Video-
=> 7 Gnd
=> 8 Gnd
=> 9 Gnd
=>
=> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
=> Hope this is of some help.
=>
=> -- Douglas N. Arnold (dna@emmy.umd.edu)
=> From: Roger Hartmuller <roger@TIS.COM>
=>
=> We have the same need to extend out monochrome monitor and keyboard
=> about 50-75 feet. I am told that monochrome is mnuch more difficult
=> than color or grayscale. Anyway, Sun now sells two cables that will
=> supposedly do the job, as follows:
=>
=> CBLVIDMON50FT - $175
=> CBLKYBD50FT - $200
=>
=> I have ordered them, but was quoted a 60-day delivery time. If I get
=> them, and they work, I'll let you know. If you come up with a cheaper
=> solution that works, could you let me know? Thanks.
=>
=> Roger Hartmuller (roger@tis.com)
=> From: Roland Schneider <sch%ee.uofm.cdn%ean.ubc.ca@RELAY.CS.NET>
=>
=> We have been running our Sun systems (3/160's, 3/260's) with 100 ft
=> video and keyboard cables for a long time. We just made up a bundle of
=> four RG-59/U coax cables for the video and a 15 conductor stranded cable
=> for the keyboard and held them together with wire ties. Of course, you
=> have to put connectors on the ends of the coax and solder 15 pin D connectors
=> on the keyboard cable. Hint: don't be tempted to use ribbon cable with
=> insulation displacement connectors for the keyboard -- the conductors are
=> too thin for that distance (too much voltage drop: it may or may not work)
=> and the wire is too sensitive to abrasion damage.
=>
=> Roland Schneider
=> University of Manitoba
=> Canada
=> From: John L. Shelton <jshelton@ads.com>
=>
=> We have extended keyboard 50+ feet using ribbon cable extension
=> cords, and more than 200 feet using ordinary gauge 22 wire.
=> We have extended monochrome video over 40 feet using 22 gauge wire
=> (twisted pair), and color over 200 feet using RG-59/U coax. We
=> haven't tried extending monochrome further; it could be done using
=> coax, I suspect.
=>
=> No active components are needed to do this.
=>
=> =John=
=> From: okunewck@gondor.cs.psu.edu (Phil OKunewick)
=>
=> In theory it couldn't be done, which is a darn good reason to try it.
=>
=> The console for Sol4 is now located in 323 Whitmore, by the door to 321.
=> There is a 75 foot cable connecting it. There appears to be no loss
=> of video resolution! (I made sure to run the video signal on a twisted
=> pair.)
=>
=> ---Phil
=> From: owens@shire.cs.psu.edu (Robert Michael Owens)
=>
=> there is still a chance you will blow a [ttl] driver quicker.
=>
=> owens
=> From: brian@ucsd.edu (Brian Kantor)
=>
=> Just use low-loss 75 ohm cable (such as RG6/U, which is standard for
=> cable-TV work) to extend the video. Clarity drops off with distance
=> because the high frequencies are attenuated and edges become softer.
=> We've run over 100 feet of cable and had an acceptable picture.
=>
=> Extending the keyboard/mouse is similar, except that the keyboard and
=> mouse derive their 5-volt power from the cable and a long run will
=> suffer from too much voltage drop. We ran more than 100 feet of cable
=> and the mouse and keyboard wouldn't work until we disconnected the
=> 5-volt supply from the cable and put a little 5-volt power supply at the
=> keyboard itself - about $30 from the campus physics stockroom. The
=> cable we used for this was standard 6-pair telephone inside wire so just
=> about anything would work.
=>
=> It's been working just fine for over two years now.
=>
=> Brian Kantor UCSD Office of Academic Computing
=> Academic Network Operations Group
=> UCSD B-028, La Jolla, CA 92093 USA
=> brian@ucsd.edu ucsd!brian BRIAN@UCSD
=> From: cinelli!beaty (steve beaty)
=>
=> Dan,
=> lots of people have been asking this question recently so you should
=> post your results. we did it here because we had a machine room available
=> and have a hot and noisy 260 to put in it. my desk is ~40 feet from the
=> room so we made two 60' cables. one is for the keyboard that is 15
=> conductor (i think) wired straight through to 15 pin Sun keyboard-style
=> connectors. the other is simply four lengths of RU58 A/U coax wired
=> in the same fashion as Sun's short monitor cable (we took the cover off
=> one end of the Sun cable to see how it's wired). it was pretty straight
=> forward (mostly straight through except the shielding went to pins 7&8 or
=> something). make sure you use coax for the monitor cables, it's ugly but
=> it works. if you have any questions, let me know
=> steve
=>
=> beaty@handel.colostate.edu
------------------------------
Date: 6 Aug 88 22:41:46 GMT
From: "P. Ashton" <paul@cantuar.uucp>
Subject: SunOS source license (academic) -- summary
A few weeks ago I posted a request for information on academic SunOS
source licenses. My main interest was in establishing the AT&T Unix source
license requirements for SunOS source. I had two replies from people in
the UK - both reported that getting a SUNSRC license took a very long
time. While we are still in the process of getting a license it has been a
very drawn out process to date. Maybe Universitites in the US get better
response.
The following is a summary of what I received - many thanks to those who
replied.
--From: guy@Sun.COM (Guy Harris)
For releases prior to 3.0 - System III, at the very minimum, and possibly
System V (unknown release).
For 3.x - System V Release 2.0.
For 4.0 - System V Release 3.1.
--From: shannon@Sun.COM (Bill Shannon)
for 3.2 -> 3.5 you need SVR2.
for 4.0 you need SVR3.
for 4.1 you'll probably need SVR3.2 (different from SVR3).
(yes, in each case there is non-BSD code from that SV release in SunOS.)
moral: you want to be on good terms with AT&T...
--From: mcvax!minster.york.ac.uk!forsyth Fri Jul 22 20:03:51 1988
We have a sun source licence. It took very nearly a year to get all the
source, even though we had all the other licences we needed and Sun had
agreed to give us source as a condition of sale. The experience of other
sites here was similar (with one exception). Note that ``Sun source''
(SUNSRC) doesn't actually include all the source: you don't get the source
for the assembler, C compiler, pixrect, f77, pascal, etc. Be sure to ask
for each of those items you think you will need, otherwise you might have
another long wait. (It's worth your life to get the C compiler source
from them, although it's mainly a hacked pcc.) Each bundle cost us 1000
pounds or so. Try to get a source maintenance agreement, or you will have
to pay the full amount for each new release. Very expensive.
--From: mcvax!minster.york.ac.uk!forsyth Wed Jul 27 20:02:18 1988
Apparently the source upgrade was part of a hardware/software package
proposed by Sun for our student computing system. In short, Sun still has
no sensible policy about supplying upgrades to source.
With the SUNSRC package, you get most of the kernel, and all the
utilities, including the C shell, but excluding the source for the
compilers and /usr/lib/libpixrect.a. Each compiler is a separate package.
It's true that you can configure a kernel, but only because they give you
object code for the missing bits. These are:
Network Disc (not required if you use SunOS 4.0) Kernel
Pixrect operations (basically a subset of libpixrect.a).
You can change the kernel, but there are restrictions, mainly because
ufs_nd.c is missing. For instance, you cannot change the size or layout
of many of the Vnode structures (since ufs_nd.o relies on them). This was
a real nuisance when I was putting my 9th edition style `streams' into the
SunOS kernel. I managed to work round it, but only by disabling UNIX
domain sockets. (I needed to add a new pointer to struct vnode.)
Fortunately, streams are a better replacement, and UNIX domain sockets are
so unreliable that few distributed programs use them. Why not pay the
extra to get ND? Unless Sun changed their policy recently, they refuse to
distribute it!
Still, there is enough source to maintain the kernel & commands, and even
add or modify system calls. Even the absence of ND can be got round (one
could write a replacement driver, using a different protocol). We were
mainly interested in the kernel source, since we simply transferred all
our locally fixed/modified command source from the Vax to the Sun.
Actually, we ran a ``standard'' Sun system on one machine for a little
while, until the sceptics who thought we ought not to change things had
discovered how many pleasant things had been local inventions or changes.
(Eg, working versions of `refer' and `grep -i'.)
--From: William Armitage <mcvax!cs.nott.ac.uk!wja>
We found things rather slow in Europe too.
We currently have Sun 3.4 sources. It proved sufficient to have a AT&T
System 5 Release 2 license with at least one of the suns sited on the
license. It took sun 6 months from order date for Sun to decided we
needed the sun cpu on the license. It took another 6 months for AT&T to
upgrade one of the cpu's on our license to a Sun and another 6 months for
sun to ship the goodies. One year later we still don't have the compleated
licenses returned.
I have just investigated 4.0. It seems we need an AT&T System 5 Release 3
license to get this. Gloom!. AT+T have just sent us details of 3.2 but it
will probably take ages to get this through. We could still be running 3.4
with selected parts of 4.3tahoe this time next year!.
William.
PS. Sun have also not returned our compleated NFS source license either.
--
Internet(ish): paul@cantuar.{uucp,nz} JANET/SPEARNET: p.ashton@nz.ac.canty
UUCP: ...!{watmath,munnari,mcvax,...!uunet!vuwcomp}!cantuar!paul
NZ Telecom: Office: +64 3 667 001 x6350
NZ Post: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand
------------------------------
End of SUN-Spots Digest
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