gildea@bbn.com (Stephen Gildea) (05/10/89)
The keyboard that Sun started shipping with the 386i and now ships with all machines, the type-4 keyboard, is a step backwards for an engineering workstation. The Delete key, which I use constantly, is way out in right field, where only the longest of pinkys can reach it. The Meta key, another one that gets full-time use, has shrunk. The | and \ key has also been moved to an unreachable position. A bit of good news: the Caps Lock is still out of the way so you are unlikely to hit it by accident. I recognize that good keyboard layout is difficult. Look at the mess DEC made of the VT220, for example. However, the desirable features have been understood for a long time. Symbolics has had a very nice design for about eight years. Why did Sun do this? If it wants to woo the IBM PC market by making a PC-style keyboard, Sun should offer a choice of keyboards (say, "IBM PC layout" and "engineering style") so as not to alienate the engineers, their existing user base. < Stephen
rta@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Rick Ace) (05/12/89)
In article <8905051752.AA03538@rice.edu>, gildea@bbn.com (Stephen Gildea) writes: > The keyboard that Sun started shipping with the 386i and now ships with > all machines, the type-4 keyboard, is a step backwards for an engineering > workstation. Agreed. The keyboard is *the* most personal part of the computer. Try as I did, I could never get accustomed to the VT220 keyboard. The new Sun keyboards are reminiscent of DEC's unfortunate VT220 decision. Sun, if you're listening, please offer customers the choice between the old and new style keyboards. Rick Ace ...!{sun,ucbvax}!pixar!rta [[ YEAH! It's not like that's hard to do or anything. Seriously! --wnl ]]
monty@delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu (Monty Mullig) (05/18/89)
stephen gildea writes:
The keyboard that Sun started shipping with the 386i and now ships with
all machines, the type-4 keyboard, is a step backwards for an engineering
workstation.
i agree. the placement of the delete key (and the uselessly large and
nearby backspace key) are very irritating. the meta key is miniscule.
also, the lights on ours (for cap lock, num lock, etc) don't work, which
makes the keyboard misleading. the only good thing about the new
keyboards is that they lable the "L" function keys with their sunview
function (in addition to the "L" number).
monty mullig
univ of chicago
biological sciences divisionrichard%aiai.edinburgh.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) (05/18/89)
I agree that the new keyboards are bad. Of course, *some* people will like them. Why can't Sun offer both? -- Richard
wbe@bbn.com (Winston Edmond) (05/19/89)
Stephen Gildea writes: > The keyboard that Sun started shipping with the 386i and now ships with > all machines, the type-4 keyboard, is a step backwards for an engineering > workstation. Rick Ace writes: >Agreed. The keyboard is *the* most personal part of the computer. Try as >I did, I could never get accustomed to the VT220 keyboard. The new Sun >keyboards are reminiscent of DEC's unfortunate VT220 decision. > >Sun, if you're listening, please offer customers the choice between the >old and new style keyboards. wnl adds: >[[ YEAH! It's not like that's hard to do or anything. Seriously! --wnl ]] Let me make it even clearer, in case Sun is willing to listen. I have been happy with the older keyboard layout (e.g., the one on my Sun 3/50). However, I, too, do not like the keyboard on the Sun 386i or the DECstation 3100, and this dislike was sufficient to cause me to cease considering purchase of these machines for my own use regardless of their other technical merits. The majority of engineers at my company that I have asked have expressed dislike for the VT-220/DECstation 3100 keyboard layout. Our company is aware of this preference and keeps this in mind when planning its equipment purchases. The only exception so far is that I find the SPARCstation 1 interesting enough that I'm considering it despite the report that it has this irritating keyboard (I haven't actually seen a SPARCstation 1 yet, but I'm assuming it has the same keyboard as the 386i). Why is a company that claims it's interested in selling *engineering* workstations switching from a keyboard that engineers like to one that more often than not isn't liked, without even offering the option of having the old layout? I assume it's related to trying to meet the European ergonomic standard for keyboards, but not offering a choice and thus losing sales in the U.S. seems a mistake to me. -WBE (Opinions expressed are my own, and not officially endorsed by BBN.)
jjd@bbn.com (James J Dempsey) (05/20/89)
Stephen Gildea writes: >> The keyboard that Sun started shipping with the 386i and now ships with >> all machines, the type-4 keyboard, is a step backwards for an engineering >> workstation. I couldn't agree more. I think the older keyboard had a much better layout. I too wish that Sun would offer a choice of keyboards. Does anyone know if you can actually plug an old-style keyboard into a new machine (like a SPARCstation-1 or 3/80)? --Jim Dempsey-- BBN Communications jjd@bbn.com (ARPA Internet) ..!{decvax, harvard, wjh12, linus}!bbn!jjd
mlandau@bbn.com (Matt Landau) (05/26/89)
In comp.sys.sun (<40172@bbn.COM>), wbe@bbn.com (Winston Edmond) writes: >Let me make it even clearer, in case Sun is willing to listen. Well, as long as we're entertaining the possiblity that someone from Sun's product design group is ever going to see these opinions, I suppose the more voices, the better :-) >been happy with the older keyboard layout (e.g., the one on my Sun 3/50). >However, I, too, do not like the keyboard on the Sun 386i or the >DECstation 3100, and this dislike was sufficient to cause me to cease >considering purchase of these machines Let me make a somewhat stronger statement. The Type-4 keyboard used on the Sun-386i and the SparcStation (and apparantly on new Sun-3's!) is a wretched abomination. Sun took something that worked very well in the Sun 3 keyboard, and broke it horribly. The Type-4's Return, Delete, and Backspace keys are poorly sized and placed, the keyboard feels "mushy", and it's virtually impossible to type on it without making tremendous numbers of typing errors if you're used to the old Sun-3 keyboard (which has, by the way, the best layout and feel of any keyboard I've ever used). >The only exception so far is that I find the SPARCstation 1 interesting >enough that I'm considering it despite the report that it has this >irritating keyboard (I haven't actually seen a SPARCstation 1 yet, but I'm >assuming it has the same keyboard as the 386i). I would also strongly resist buying any machine with a Type-4 keyboard, even a SparcStation, but the only price/performance competition at this point is from the DECStation-3100, and DEC VT-220 style keyboards are even WORSE than Sun's Type-4! >Why is a company that claims it's interested in selling *engineering* >workstations switching from a keyboard that engineers like to one that >more often than not isn't liked, without even offering the option of >having the old layout? I was told that the new keyboard was necessary for internationalization of the keyboard, and to make the DOS emulation work on the 386i, and subsequently on other Suns (via the DOS software emulation package that was announced last month). That's all well and good if you care about those things. I don't. I want a keyboard I can type confortably on, using SunOS, in English. Sun used to have such a keyboard. Not offering that keyboard on new machines is a serious mistake, and one that could cost Sun. (If Solbourne, for example, were to build a competitively priced SparcStation clone with a decent keyboard I'd choose it in a minute over the Sun.) Wake up and smell the coffee, Sun folk. You're alienating your existing customer base. That's not a good idea. . . >(Opinions expressed are my own, and not officially endorsed by BBN.) Yeah, what he said :-) -- Matt Landau Life is uncertain -- eat dessert first. mlandau@bbn.com
jgrace@porter-square.bbn.com (Joe Grace) (05/26/89)
Just to make sure everyone is clear on BBN engineers's thinking on
keyboards :-), I thought I would add my 2 cents.
To me, there are 2 families of acceptable keyboards, neither of which
corresponds to an ANSI standard or anything. Rather, they correspond to
"empirical" or practical standards.
The VT100 family. The older Sun keyboards fall under this category. This
layout has the (IBM) Selectric typewriter arrangement of keys, with
<control> where <caps lock> usually is, <escape> at the top left (just
above <tab>), and <delete> or <backspace> just above <return>. The older
Sun keyboards add <meta> keys to the right and left of the space bar, but
typically VT100 layout keyboards have no such keys.
The 'new age' or "enhanced" IBM PC keyboards. These are nicer than the
VT100 family keyboards in that there are _2_ control keys and _2_ meta
keys which basically become 2nd and 3rd <shift> keys. This layout
promotes high speed touch typing. I don't recall where the <escape> key
is on these keyboards, but I think it needs (via a PC layout program or
such) to be swapped with another key to get it in its "usual" top-left
location. This would be a problem except that a key exists in the
"proper" location, so the situation is easily fixable in software.
I just saw the new Sun keyboard today, and the biggest flaw I noticed is
that they shrunk the <return> key to squeeze in another key. OOOPS!
IBM did this sort of thing with their original IBM PCs to protect their
word processing DisplayWriter systems from being replaced with the less
expensive line. IBM pushed not only the <return>, but also their 2
<shift> keys out by a key. Basically, touch typists can't use the old PC
keyboards. Ditto for VT220 keyboards which are similarly broken. Sun
seems to be trying to kill their top of the line computers --- a little
backwards even by IBM standards ;-).
When the DEC salespeople demo'ed the 3100, I told them I thought the
computer was "broken". Seriously, no smiley. The 2 most important parts
of a computer are its screen (output interface) and its (you guessed it)
keyboard. If these are broken, the computer is busted.
The funny thing is, my DECcy friends tell me that DEC uses keyboards with
reasonable layouts *internally* but just doesn't sell them to customers.
Talk about stupid.
I hope Sun doesn't make a similar mistake. Sun, please, at least offer a
choice of keyboards.
Thanks for listening,
= Joe =
Joe Grace
ARPA: jgrace@bbn.com
UUCP: {harvard,husc6,decvax,etc.}!bbn!jgracechuck@trantor.harris-atd.com (Chuck Musciano) (05/26/89)
> Does anyone know if you can actually plug an old-style keyboard into a new > machine (like a SPARCstation-1 or 3/80)? Our Orlando sales rep brought the new machines by for a demo, and said that you could plug older type-3 keyboards into the new machines and they would work. I didn't actually try this, though. I, too, like the type-3 keyboards best. While I could be forced to get used to a new one, why can't Sun simply offer multiple keyboard options. Surely it can't be that hard to design a universal keyboard interface so that different keyboards all work correctly. They offer eight jillion different monitor/frame buffer options, why not a few different keyboards? My personal favorite keyboard of all time was the one attached to an IBM 3100 terminal. Just the right click and tactile feedback. A beautiful keyboard. Say what you want about IBM, they really understand good keyboard design (latest PC efforts notwithstanding :-) Chuck Musciano ARPA : chuck@trantor.harris-atd.com Harris Corporation Usenet: ...!uunet!x102a!trantor!chuck PO Box 37, MS 3A/1912 AT&T : (407) 727-6131 Melbourne, FL 32902 FAX : (407) 727-{5118,5227,4004}
casey@gauss.llnl.gov (Casey Leedom) (05/26/89)
| From: richard%aiai.edinburgh.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) | X-Sun-Spots-Digest: Volume 7, Issue 301, message 4 of 9 | | I agree that the new keyboards are bad. Of course, *some* people will | like them. Why can't Sun offer both? I wouldn't call them horrible, but I was certainly glad to find an old type-3 keyboard to trade for my new type-4 keyboard. I think it's fairly obvious why Sun doesn't want to stock multiple keyboards. It makes stocking and all sorts of other business-type things a lot easier and more cost effective. My major complaint is that they just don't seem to have really thought the keyboard out very well and certainly don't seem to have consulted anyone on the design. I've heard a few people complain about the feel, but that doesn't bother me nearly so much as the layout. The lower left and right areas of the central keyboard are far too crowded. For instance, why did they think that they needed *BOTH* "alt" and "meta" (now labeled with a diamond) keys on the lower left? To put both in they were forced to make both keys small and easy to miss. If they really felt they had to support PC users, just tell them that "meta"=="alt" for their PC applications. Heck, just put one big key where the two small keys are and label it with the diamond. The same could be said of the lower right region: what's "compose"? Is this some word processing key? Come on, context sensitivity works! You don't have to use two keys for two different context dependent actions. And the labeling on the left function key and right numeric/function key pads is so visually confused it's almost impossible to see anything through the clutter. (sigh) I could go on, but what's the use. I'm just going to baby this old type-3 I was able to finagle and hope it lasts until Sun comes out with the type-5 keyboards in some distant future. Maybe they'll have figured out that they should consult users on potential designs by then. Who knows, maybe they'll even take the daring step of being the first manufacturer to downgrade the caps lock key to an off the central pad position - somewhere on the underside of the keyboard is my preference, but heck, I'd be pleased if it were anywhere away from where my fingers accidentally hit it. Casey
edelheit%smiley@gateway.mitre.org (Jeff Edelheit) (05/30/89)
I am sure that this will start a real uproar, but I rather like the new keyboard. I think that it has a better touch than the old keyboard. I can understand Sun's unwillingness to keep to keyboards in stock, but if enough people indicate that they might like a choice, perhaps Sun might offer the old type-3 as an option. Regards, Jeff Edelheit (edelheit%smiley@gateway.mitre.org) The MITRE Corporation 7525 Colshire Drive McLean, VA 22102 (703) 883-7586
gnb@uunet.uu.net (Gregory N. Bond) (05/30/89)
Does anyone know if you can actually plug an old-style keyboard into a new
machine (like a SPARCstation-1 or 3/80)?
Well, the oposite seems to work - this is my brand new 3/60 and it came
with the Sun 4 keyboard. It is switch selectable tho, for SunOs3.x/4.0,
which indicates there are some incompatabilities.
Urk! The delete key is above the backspace key, and if I see the help
menu in emacs one more time I'll scream!!! and getting "`<newline>"
because the return key is the wrong shape! Alt keys are too small. But I
do like the feel of the new keyboard.
And what are Compose, Alt Graph, Alt, keys for (as the little diamond
thinggies seem to be the alt key...)
Greg (Who wishes he had a sparcstation-1 to go with his new keyboard).
--
Gregory Bond, Burdett Buckeridge & Young Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
Internet: gnb@melba.bby.oz.au non-MX: gnb%melba.bby.oz@uunet.uu.net
Uucp: {uunet,mnetor,pyramid,ubc-vision,ukc,mcvax,...}!munnari!melba.bby.oz!gnbwarb@uunet.uu.net (Dan Warburton) (05/31/89)
I don't know about the new keyboards but my sun 3/160 has the cap locks just under the letf shift key. I double strike this all the time. Even worse there is no external indication of the mode of the caps lock. Type 4 keyboards are probably a move toward compatibility with you know who.
shn@think.com (06/06/89)
>Does anyone know if you can actually plug an old-style keyboard into a new >machine (like a SPARCstation-1 or 3/80)? No. The keyboard uses a new round DIN-like connector (just like a Mac). The mouse also plugs into the keyboard using a similar DIN connector. The keyboard connects to the main unit using a separate cable with DIN connectors on each end. So it may be possible that an adapter can be made to go from the old D style keyboard to the new DIN style connector on the main unit. The new keyboard has two DIN connectors on it. They are not marked with words, only with little symbols. They are both underneath the keyboard with one exiting to the left and the other on the right. The symbols would suggest that the mouse can be plugged into either connector and the other can be cabled to the main unit. Sam Nuwayser - Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge, MA +1 617-876-1111 shn@think.com, {harvard,bloom-beacon,topaz}!think!shn
chuck@trantor.harris-atd.com (Chuck Musciano) (06/12/89)
> On a system with a Type-3 keyboard we find: > :ku=\E[A:kd=\E[B:kr=\E[C:kl=\E[D:\ > but on my system with a Type-4 keyboard (a Sun 386i) > :ku=\E[215z:kd=\E[221z:kr=\E[219z:kl=\E[217z:\ Actually, these are the same. The first lists the ANSI standard escape sequences for cursor motion, the second, the Sun escape sequences for the arrow keys. To make the first definition work, you must have "setkeys reset" in effect, so that the cursor keys generate the ANSI sequences. To make the second definition work, you must have "setkeys noarrows" in effect, to make the keys generate the Sun sequences. You might want to make your .login check the machine type and execute "setkeys" accordingly. Along the lines of previous posters, I am also disturbed by the loss of the type-3 keyboard. I have to believe this was a marketing decision, not an engineering one. Nothing is more frustrating than to lose a perfectly good tool and to be told the reason is "because". Why can't Sun offer multiple keyboards, in the same way it offers multiple display options? Has anyone fooled with the connectors of the type-4 to see if the pinouts match the type-3? Could a type-3 be fitted with a type-4 connector? Is anyone at Keytronics interested in marketing a Sun-compatible keyboard? Is the Sun world big enough to support such third party options? Perhaps the most frustrating thing of all was to see that one reply from someone at Sun which said "You'll just have to get used to it". Maybe someone at Sun could post some justification for the type-4 besides PC compatibility. Did Sun survey anyone from the existing customer base before making this decision? Chuck Musciano ARPA : chuck@trantor.harris-atd.com Harris Corporation Usenet: ...!uunet!x102a!trantor!chuck PO Box 37, MS 3A/1912 AT&T : (407) 727-6131 Melbourne, FL 32902 FAX : (407) 727-{5118,5227,4004} Oh yeah, laugh now! But when the millions start pouring in, I'll be the one at Burger King, sucking down Whoppers at my own private table! --Al Bundy
jay@silence.princeton.nj.us (Jay Plett) (06/14/89)
It's just dandy. Much better feel than the type 3. Layout is fine. Even a glimmer of hope that the return and shift keys won't start sticking after a few years. I've been typing on a type-4 daily for a little over a year now. I also type on a type-3 daily. The type-4 is a big win. jay@princeton.edu
gfr@cobra.mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) (06/14/89)
Reference: v8n27 > > On a system with a Type-3 keyboard we find: > > :ku=\E[A:kd=\E[B:kr=\E[C:kl=\E[D:\ > > but on my system with a Type-4 keyboard (a Sun 386i) > > :ku=\E[215z:kd=\E[221z:kr=\E[219z:kl=\E[217z:\ > > ... To make the first definition work, you must have "setkeys > reset" in effect, so that the cursor keys generate the ANSI sequences. To > make the second definition work, you must have "setkeys noarrows" in > effect, to make the keys generate the Sun sequences... Neat!, now can anyone help me find setkeys? The man page synopsis shows it as being an 'old' command (in /usr/old) on Sun 3's and 4's but shows a special synopsis for the Sun386i (which is what I'm interested in). The problem is that when I issue the setkeys command I get the message: "setkeys: Command not found." Pertinent info: 1. I'm running 4.0.1 on my 386i 2. man pages on my 386i don't have an entry for setkeys (man pages on my 3's and 4's do). 3. it is not in /usr/old 4. I could not locate it with the find command 5. it is not part of one of the optional clusters Bottom line: it appears to me that setkeys is not part of the 4.0.1 distribution for the Sun386i, unless I've missed something (quite possible). Anyone have any ideas? - Glennn Roberts, MITRE Corp., McLean VA (703) 883-6820 groberts@mitre.org
reeder@cs.utexas.edu (William P. Reeder) (06/15/89)
Well, I might as well register my vote: I dislike the new keyboard` a great deal.` Why? The size and placement of the return key.` That's it folks. I can remap everything else nicely. I can get used` to the touch quickly. But the return key IN THE WRONG ()@&*$^)@(#%#!(` PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!` OK, I have control again.` There is no elegant way for me to remap keys to put the return key` where it belongs and retain any tactile quality. Remapping the `~ key` to be return is bad because it is too small a target. Think about it,` it just don't work. Pity, too. This is the only thing I dislike about` the SPARCstation 1, and I REALLY dislike it.` William Reeder` University of Texas at Austin` Computation Center` P.S. I'm getting really tired of seeing` Unmatched `. -- DISCLAIMER: Opinions expressed above are those of the author and do not neccessarily reflect the opinions of the manufacturer of the wires which brought it to you.
lekash@orville.nas.nasa.gov (John Lekashman) (06/15/89)
My biggest complaint about the new keyboards is the change (yes I know its silly to worry about change) of the connector. Some of us have gone to the trouble of having building wiring and patch panels, so CPUs can be in cold, inhuman places, and humans in somewhat more pleasant climates. A new connector means yet another annoying object we have to build and keep around. Ah well. 15 pin DB to DIN shouldn't be all that bad. But of course, I'll need two for each machine. One in the office, one in the equipment room. john
jim@uunet.uu.net (Jim Morton) (06/20/89)
It's interesting to see that in the past year Sun has managed to tick off a lot of users and sysadmins with things like the Type-4 keyboard, SunOS 4.X, shipping delays, etc. Most of the Sun-Spots readers are highly technical people, and we still get frustrated by these things. Think what the average DOS office user has to put up with. In the old days, "The customer was always right." We seen many complaints about the type-4 keyboard here, roughly 90% against by my count. Did anyone do any market research on this new design? If so, the research was clearly flawed. And the 2 responses from Sun that were posted both had the tone "That's the decision we made, so live with it." At least Coca-Cola could admit the screwed up with New Coke. If Sun won't fix this major blunder, maybe some company like Keytronics will, and make a lot of money doing so. -- Jim Morton, APPLiX Inc., Westboro, MA ...uunet!applix!jim jim@applix.com
rbj@dsys.ncsl.nist.gov (Root Boy Jim) (06/24/89)
? From: Stephen Gildea <gildea@bbn.com> [The original poster] ? I recognize that good keyboard layout is difficult. Look at the mess DEC ? made of the VT220, for example. However, the desirable features have been ? understood for a long time. Symbolics has had a very nice design for ? about eight years. I may as well add my 2\(cts to The Great Keyboard Debate... I haven't seen the alleged /dev/kbd's yet, so I can't comment on them per se. However, you *could* muck with the translation table. BTW, DEC got hip with their VT320 (or whatever) terminal. The setup mode allows you to choose between `/~ and escape, putting the <>'s back where they belong, and moving the `/~ to where <> are. Now if they would only allow you to make the compose key into a meta key... ? < Stephen Root Boy Jim is what I am Are you what you are or what?
wbe@bbn.com (Winston Edmond) (06/25/89)
(In a previous message, I said that my dislike of VT220-like keyboard layouts is sufficient to make me choose not to buy them.) >From: cre@EBay (Conrad Essen) >To: avb@avb, sardina@sunrise.East >Subject: Re: keyboards > It sounds like the main point users hate is the location of keys, >not the design or feel of the type 4 keyboard? Am I correct ? >Conrad Pretty much. The essential issue is: Can I touch type on the new keyboard for reasonably long periods and without making lots of mistakes caused by key placement, size, etc.? The feel of the keys on the Sun 386i was acceptable, although the keyboard felt like it was a bit smaller than the type-3 keyboard. Since the key bindings can be changed, I don't care if the key-to-ASCII mapping differs from what I'm used to. That's fixable. On keyboards whose keys are all physically the same mechanism (no physically locking CAPS LOCK, for example), I could even fix things like swapping the location of the CAPS LOCK and CTRL keys (or, generically, shift-like keys and "character" keys). If some manufacturer had replaced 'f' and 'g' with a single double-wide key labelled 'g' and put 'f' in the middle of a row of function keys in the upper right corner and said, "Can't you just use 'p' 'h' instead?", most people would say that the keyboard was badly designed. The problem seems to be that manufacturers are eliminating keys from the "upper" keyboard region and adding character keys to the "lower" region. Various manufacturers feel free to move DEL or backspace keys off the main key area, insert new keys between 'z' and Left-Shift, make tiny, hard-to-hit shift keys, put character keys like '\' in the midst of a collection of shift-like keys, etc. Usually, these kind of changes are very hard for the user to modify. Remapping can't completely compensate for the absence of a key or the presence of an unwanted one. For those who say: you can adjust... One programmer at BBN worked on a VT220 for about a year. He was a touch typist. His report: even after a year of using the keyboard, he still had a much higher mistake rate with that keyboard than with any other keyboard. His comment was: there are some keyboard designs that are beyond the bounds "adjustment" can handle. In response to the message that said the type-3 keyboard had been disliked when it appeared... When Sun workstations started appearing in our department, I saw what appeared to be an anomaly. When I watched touch-typist programmers, I saw them making what seemed to me an unusually large number of typing errors. In some cases, it looked like the DELETE key was the most frequently typed key. :-) On the other hand, these typists seemed to like the keyboard. Later, when I got my Sun 3/50, I, too, found I made a lot of typing errors, and I still do two years later (though not as many). Yet, I like the keyboard. Why? Because most of the errors are caused by two things: (1) the lack of a registration indicator on the keyboard (e.g., dimples on 'd' and 'k', sculptured 'f' and 'j', or some such) so that I can be offset and not know it; and (2) since the key placement is good, I end up typing so fast that I start to make errors. This is what would be improved by changing the feel of the keyboard. -WBE
sid@rtech.com (Sid Shapiro) (07/03/89)
Hi there folks, Does anyone have the complete mapping of keys to key-names for re-binding purposes for the vt100 emulator te100tool? And have you gotten them to work? I've tried to figure out by trial and error, but I'm getting some strange messages - like key-names that are mentioned in the te100 manual not being recognized... Thanks for any and all information. Sid Shapiro -- Relational Technology, Inc sid@rtech.com (415)748-3470