john@apple.com (John Higdon) (01/08/89)
Now that AT&T has entered the real world of competition, it has also
adopted the good ole American way of dealing with it. Having discovered
that its high-priced do-nothing crap they call equipment isn't selling all
that well, they focused their attention on (who else) the Japanese.
With the CWA and IBEW joining in the chorus, they are accusing Japanese
manufacturers of "dumping" cheap (but nevertheless full-featured)
electronic key equipment on the US market and are seeking relief from
the US government in the form of sanctions.
They may be right. What sane person (other than some corporate
mentality type) would by a Merlin over a Panasonic 1232? But just maybe
they ought to consider how they might improve their product and lower
the price. But then that wouldn't be the American way. Just ask the
auto manufacturers.
--
John Higdon
john@bovine ..sun!{apple|cohesive|pacbell}!zygot!bovine!johndmkdmk@uncecs.edu (David M. Kurtiak) (01/09/89)
In John Higdon's(bovine!john@apple.com) posting to comp.dcom.telecom he writes: >Subject: AT&T alleges dumping >Date: 8 Jan 89 00:17:40 PST (Sun) > >Now that AT&T has entered the real world of competition, it has also >adopted the good ole American way of dealing with it. Having discovered >that its high-priced do-nothing crap they call equipment isn't selling all >that well, they focused their attention on (who else) the Japanese. W-R-O-N-G: not specifically the Japanese, but a handful of foreign manufacturers that have been proven to engage in dumping activities. >With the CWA and IBEW joining in the chorus, they are accusing Japanese >manufacturers of "dumping" cheap (but nevertheless full-featured) >electronic key equipment on the US market and are seeking relief from >the US government in the form of sanctions. > >They may be right. What sane person (other than some corporate >mentality type) would by a Merlin over a Panasonic 1232? But just maybe >they ought to consider how they might improve their product and lower >the price. But then that wouldn't be the American way. Just ask the >auto manufacturers. I was originally going to just ignore this rubbish, but felt that such ignorance cannot be let passed without some sort of rebuttal. The dumping accusations stem from real-world unfair trade practices that as I will point out, are a breach of open-trade agreements between the U.S. and it's trade partners. This is a perfectly legitimate gripe for *MANY* U.S. maufacturers. Without getting into a lecture on World Economics 101, read the actual press release(s) before making such radical conclusions and criticising specific companies, namely AT&T in your example. Scenario: U.S. based Company "A" sells small-business telephone systems for a nominal price of $1000 per unit. Company "B", which is foreign based, has a similar product, with or without better features that they sell IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY for $1000. Company "B" enters the U.S. market selling that same exact prioduct for $200. Keeping in mind that foreign governments often SUBSIDIZE industry, how can a U.S. manufacture even come close to competing??? Co. "B" is selling that product *BELOW* the actual costs of producing it, but because of the gov't subsidies they receive, Co. B still makes money hand-over-fist and captures a significant market share. Do U.S. mfgrs. receive government subsidies?? NO, generally not. This practice of selling below costs in a market other than the home country is known as DUMPING, and is indeed an unfair trade practice by definition of the enacted laws. I personally cannot see how any American, working for an American company in the United States can view this as fair competition. If the foreign competitors who wish to trade here played by the same rules, there would be no problem. But heaven help the U.S. manufacturer who attempts to dump their products in someone else's market. Trade wars, and accusations galore! You may not like American cars, telephones, or even Apple pie -- but be glad that at least you have that choice. In other countries you may not have such liberties. I'm not pro-protectionism, but just wish to see trade that is indeed FAIR to everyone involved. This probably isn't the appropriate group to discuss politics/trade policy, etc., but had to put in my two cents... HOP, *CLICK*, JUMP... I get off of my soapbox. --- David M. Kurtiak Internet: dmkdmk@ecsvax.uncecs.edu Bitnet: DMKDMK@ECSVAX.BITNET UUCP: dmkdmk@ecsvax.UUCP (rutgers,gatech)!mcnc!ecsvax!dmkdmk
john@apple.com (John Higdon) (01/10/89)
Mr. Kurtiak:
I was somewhat surprised by your instant reply to my posting. Unfortunately
I feel that your response was typical of the knee-jerk attitude that
pervades the US manufacturing community.
Having owned an equipment vending company for over five years (no longer;
the market's too hoary) I can speak with some authority concerning the
wares. Most US makers have been well behind the times in their technology.
While AT&T was still trying to push the Dimension, ITT was selling their
3100 (great hardware, lousy software), Rolm was selling 1976 equipment in
1986, and Mitel was pushing their highly touted ANALOG SX series.
Last night, Sony's chairman of the board on 60 Minutes said the that US
firms would be better off to concern themselves with their product than
with what goes on in the board rooms and take-overs. I couldn't agree more.
"Dumping" is a convenient smoke screen that may be true to a small degree,
but it has been proven over and over again that the American people will
pay MORE for what they really want. Japanese cars cost more than their
American counterparts and yet they still enjoy brisk sales. The same
applies to telephone equipment.
I have no axes to grind in this area. My truck is American (it filled my
needs at the right price). My computer is an AT&T built right here in my
home town. When it was first introduced the price tag was $7,000. When they
finally lowered the price to $1,600, then it became competitive. Did they
loose money at this price? I doubt it.
Another aspect concerns quality of workmanship. You may have heard recently
about the difficulties Seagate has been having financially. In the press it
was revealed that 20% of the work force was let go. Seagate blamed, among
other things, foreign competition for their declining market performance. I
can tell you first hand what their trouble is. Out of 20 Seagate drives
under my control in 1988, seven (7) of them failed. No further comment
necessary.
US manufacturers have the capability to technologically cream the world
competition. It's the free thinking in the United States that has
historically led to our once technical superiority. If we could return to
that mentality rather than playing legal and board room games, we would
once again control the market place. The other countries are well aware of
this and are hoping we never wake up.
--
John Higdon
john@bovine ..sun!{apple|cohesive|pacbell}!zygot!bovine!johnjshelton@ames.arc.nasa.gov (John L. Shelton) (01/10/89)
In article <telecom-v09i0008m02@vector.UUCP> bovine!john@apple.com (John Higdon) writes:
.......[portion deleted]
->They may be right. What sane person (other than some corporate
->mentality type) would by a Merlin over a Panasonic 1232? But just maybe
->they ought to consider how they might improve their product and lower
->the price. But then that wouldn't be the American way. Just ask the
->auto manufacturers.
->
->--
->John Higdon
->john@bovine ..sun!{apple|cohesive|pacbell}!zygot!bovine!john
I'll claim to be sane. For home use, I selected a merlin plus over
20+ other sytems, all but one of which was made overseas.
(Teleconnect was the other US manufactured unit.) I picked AT&T for
an electronic key system for a lot of reasons:
1. Best documentation
2. More features (that I wanted) than any other system)
3. 4/10 (line/station) configuration instead of 2/6 or 3/8
4. Wide range of instruments available, including standard phones
5. Printer option for logging system calls, dumping configuration.
6. Rugged design
7. 800 number for assistance
8. I know I can get spare parts, repair, etc in 1 yr, 3 yr, 5 yr.
9. I'll be able to upgrade software later.
10. The phones don't look like crap; I like having good styling.
11. When I get a bigger house ( ;-) ) I can upgrade to an 8/20
or 30/100 system
I didn't realize that other companies were dumping, but it didn't
make a difference to me; the AT&T product (in this case) was vastly
superior.
=John=dmkdmk@uncecs.edu (David M. Kurtiak) (01/10/89)
Mr. Higdon:
Your reply was well put, and I have to agree with most of what you said.
It was also well supported with current market issues. My original
followup was based on the interpretation of what you were saying was
just to knock *everything* made here, and that we as a country CANNOT
compete. That was the "knee-jerker" -- you originally just about
busted everything and anything without any support other than "typical
American attitude." I just simply can't buy that line of thought.
Now I can see what was really behind the issue with a backed up
response. I will somewhat apologize for the initial defensive
attitude now that its more clear that it wasn't just a bashing
without cause. (hey, we're as American as the next guy!) :-) There
have been several occasions were a US made product hasn't met my expectations
or has crapped out before its time. But to generalize that *all*
US made products fall into that category wouldn't be fair either.
You may be perfectly right about the "smokescreen" that the dumping
issue may have on the real, underlying problems US manufacturers are
facing. Instead of takeovers and boardroom games, more attention should
be directed at the quality and INNOVATION of products. If the products
are *that* much better, they will sell despite the price until another
(possibly foreign) manufacturer comes in and drowns the market. I guess
that MARKETING is more important at that stage, hunh?? Whatever - your
points are good, especially about the others hoping we never wake up...
There are some products out in the market that are maufacturerd here and
are making very impressive sales both domestically and internationally.
Perhaps more should follow those success stories instead of being more
concerned with personal greed...
----
David M. Kurtiak
Internet: dmkdmk@ecsvax.uncecs.edu
Bitnet: DMKDMK@ECSVAX.BITNET
UUCP: dmkdmk@ecsvax.UUCP {gatech,rutgers}!mcnc!ecsvax!dmkdmkMITRE-KOREA@SEOUL-EMH1.ARMY.MIL (01/11/89)
I followed the discussion of ATT and dumping with some interest. Since I am currently living in Korea, I thought I might have a thing or two to consider. First of all, I doubt that things are ever as simple as we would like. The existence of differing internal (i.e. domestic) tax laws and market policies, as well as external (i.e. import/export) ones makes it difficult to directly compare situations across countries. Koreans, for example, pay sales taxes far in excess of any in the U.S., at least on "luxury" products like cars and computers. Second, the law of supply and demand (with allowances for taxes and other market-distorting forces) still applies. A smaller demand will generally imply a higher market-clearing price. In Korea, for instance, the middle class is much smaller than in the U.S., so it is only the rich who buy things like computers. Thus both a smaller market and a less price-sensitive consumer. Third, distribution mechanisms are different. I am unaware of any Korean mail-order Computer Shopper-type distribution. Fourth, culture. Koreans are VERY Korean. They don't need any government "buy Korean" programs. Buying foreign goods when Korean equivalents are available is frowned upon socially. (This is changing however. In particular there is considerable snob appeal in owning a foreign-made item, since it is usually seen as more expensive and possibly better made.) Now the anecdote: As an American living in Korea, I can buy a Korean-made Leading Edge Computer more cheaply by mail order from New Jersey, including shipping, than I can get it here. It's a strange world. Moral: ? Dan Jones mitre-korea@seoul-emh1.army.mil
jeffrey@uunet.UU.NET (jeffrey) (01/12/89)
I was very sad to read that AT&T has descended to Japan-bashing. It is a company for which I have the greatest respect. They have been a generous client, and even if that had not been the case, as a UNIX programmer I would still owe them my livelihood. Their ability to plan for the long term is unequaled. However, it seems clear that the Japanese equipment is not underpriced, except in comparison to the AT&T stuff. I had looked at the AT&T phone systems, and the sales people acted as if they already had a government enforced monopoly. The system was completely incompatible, even with other AT&T equipment. In short, AT&T has yet to make a serious attempt to compete with the foreign systems, in price or openness, and their recent "anti-dumping" action seems to indicate they would rather solve the problem with lawyers than engineers. Unfortunately, we expect this sort of thing from American firms, but I had every reason to hope AT&T would be an exception. Phone systems, even Japanese ones, still are high priced, and tend to lock customers into the vendor's equipment, and limit the customer's expansion options. The solution for this is competition. Phone systems could be an important source of innovation in our economy, rather than a major overhead. However, if foreign makers are locked out, this innovation will be slowed in the United States. Our foreign competitors are going to have access to cheaper and better phone systems than Americans. I would hope our "solution" to the DRAM "dumping problem" would have taught all involved a lesson. Our chip prices skyrocketed, sales of thousands of U.S. products were hurt, the Japanese companies did just fine without our markets, thank you, and the two American companies that did make money are spending it on suing each other. I am not sure my business could survive many more attempts to protect my job. AT&T is perfectly capable of beating the Japanese by producing a quality, reasonably priced product--and of selling it in Japan. Not to even try is unworthy of a company which represents the very best of business in America, and therefore the world. -- Jeffrey Kegler, President, Algorists 1788 Wainwright DR, Reston VA 22090 jeffrey@algor2.UU.NET or uunet!algor2!jeffrey
hsc@mtund.ATT.COM (Harvey Cohen) (01/12/89)
In article <telecom-v09i0009m02@vector.UUCP> bovine!john@apple.com (John Higdon) writes: >X-Administrivia-To: telecom-request@vector.uucp >X-TELECOM-Digest: volume 9, issue 9, message 2 >Mr. Kurtiak: >I was somewhat surprised by your instant reply to my posting. Unfortunately >I feel that your response was typical of the knee-jerk attitude that >pervades the US manufacturing community. Translation: "The US manufacturing community has no right to complain about unfair trade practices, because the US manufacturing community is not virtuous." >Having owned an equipment vending company for over five years (no longer; >the market's too hoary) I can speak with some authority concerning the >wares. Most US makers have been well behind the times in their technology. [Several examples deleted] Translation: "US makers have no right to complain if foreign companies sell below cost in US markets, because US products are inferior." >"Dumping" is a convenient smoke screen that may be true to a small degree, >but it has been proven over and over again that the American people will >pay MORE for what they really want. Japanese cars cost more than their >American counterparts and yet they still enjoy brisk sales. The same >applies to telephone equipment. Translation: "Since people pay more for Japanese cars, it follows that they would pay more for Japanese telephone systems. Therefore, foreign suppliers should be allowed to sell below cost in US markets." [Lots more about how US products are priced too high and have inferior workmanship.] Higdon's logic is so grossly, mind-bogglingly out of joint that it is impossible to construct a reasoned rebuttal. -- Harvey S. Cohen, AT&T Bell Labs, Lincroft, NJ, mtund!hsc, (201)576-3302
orn@uunet.UU.NET (Orn E. Hansen) (01/21/89)
In article <telecom-v09i0014m01@vector.UUCP>, algor2!jeffrey@uunet.UU.NET (jeffrey) writes: > > AT&T is perfectly capable of beating the Japanese by producing a quality, > reasonably priced product--and of selling it in Japan. Not to even try is > unworthy of a company which represents the very best of business in > America, and therefore the world. > -- > As a non-American it is very annoying to read statements like the one above in articles. If you'd care to re-read your artice, you will notice that you tend to talk of America as it was the whole WORLD. The total population in America is only about 1/10th of the world. Americans are not Europeans, Asians etc., even though you sometimes seem to think so. Further more, some products I have seen and used made in the US are not made in top quality. Years ago, when you peeked into products made in Europe and America you'd notice that Europeans had everything neatly positioned while Americans obviously were manufacturing cheap, but good compared to it's price. The Japanese have outsmarted you on that one, they produce quality products at low cost. Quality manufactured cheap. Europeans are beginning to produce DRAM's that are bigger and even East-Europeans are gaining on the West's lead in Electronics. The space shuttle the russians manufactured showed that their Computer knowledge is far far far greater than anyone suspected. So, mine freund, it's not only the Japanese! =========================================================================== [Moderator's Note: I had sworn off publishing *anything* further in the 'AT&T alleges dumping' category. This Digest is not really the proper forum for a long-term discussion on the merits of American made versus foreign made anything. But this one item did come in which rebutted an earlier message and in the interest of fairness I am including it today, assuming that our overseas correspondent may get the Digest or comp.dcom.telecom on a somewhat delayed basis and not been able to answer until now. But as of now, please move the discussion elsewhere. Thank you. P. Townson]