telecom-request@vector.Dallas.TX.US (08/05/89)
{{{ For your enjoyment, another special single-issue edition of the }}}
{{{ [TELECOM Digest]. I'd like to claim some noble aesthetic reason }}}
{{{ for presenting these special issues in their original digest format }}}
{{{ rather than individual messages. The truth is the subtle change }}}
{{{ in headers gives the gateway software indigestion. No matter }}}
{{{ though, I think the digest format works well in these cases... }}}
{{{ }}}
{{{ For those of you relatively new to comp.dcom.telecom, this is how }}}
{{{ the [TELECOM Digest] looks, and is what the Internet mailing list }}}
{{{ readers get. After seeing this, hopefully some of those unusual }}}
{{{ headers in the comp.dcom.telecom articles make a little more sense. }}}
{{{ }}}
{{{ Enjoy. -chip }}}
TELECOM Digest Sat, 5 Aug 89 03:05:00 CDT Special Edition: Seminar News
Today's Topics: Moderator: Patrick Townson
Re: Understanding ISDN: More Seminars Planned (Pete Brown) **PRO**
Seminar Announcements (Hector Myerston) **CON**
Commercialization of TELECOM (Lars J. Poulsen) **PRO**
Seminar Announcements, etc. (Frank J. Wancho) **CON**
Re: Understanding ISDN: More Seminars Planned (Tom Wiencko) **PRO**
Plugging Telecom Seminars (Bill Cerny) ORIGINAL WRITER REPLIES,
Folks who Understand ISDN (Bill Cerny) & QUESTIONS HIS CRITIC
Re: Folks Who Understand ISDN (Don Stanwyck) *RESPONSE*
Re: Understanding ISDN: More Seminars Planned (Bennett Todd) **PRO**
Re: Understanding ISDN: More Seminars Planned (Chip Rosenthal)**CON**
Is The Monthly Round-Up Too Commercial? (Kenneth Selling) **PRO**
Seminar Announcements (Vance Shipley) **PRO**
Seminar Announcements - My View (TELECOM Moderator) ???????
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 89 8:45:54 PDT
From: Pete Brown <940se@mather1.af.mil>
Subject: Re: Understanding ISDN: More Seminars Planned
>Question to readers: Do you, or do
>you not enjoy/wish to read seminar/exhibition/conference announcements? Tell
I enjoy the opportunity to either read them or to press 'n' to skip them.
My vote is to continue to post them, with perhaps a keyword (such as
"List of Commercial Seminars for February") which would serve to warn
those whose sensibilities are offended by commercial-flavored posts.
Pete
------------------------------
From: myerston@cts.sri.com
Date: 26 Jul 89 13:20 PST
Subject: Seminar Announcements
Organization: SRI Intl, Inc., Menlo Park, CA 94025 [(415)326-6200]
I agree that seminar announcements have no place in this
newsgroup. There are daily and continuing streams of such
announcements. Publishing them here would lead to one of
two equally bad results:
o A flood of Seminar Announcements OR
o Further "Filtering" by the Moderator
I think that there is already much too much "noise" on the
net in the form of excrutiatingly detailed descriptions of
local calling areas in some particular city and the ever
increasing use of Moderators Notes before, sometimes during
and after submissions by others.
Just an opinion!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 89 11:18:35 -0700
From: Lars J Poulsen <lars@salt.acc.com>
Subject: Commercialization of TELECOM
Patrick,
The three most valuable moderated newsgroups on the net, in my
humble opinion, are REC.HUMOR.FUNNY, COMP.DCOM.TELECOM, and COMP.RISKS.
Of these, TELECOM is by far the most responsive, in terms of turnaround
time and the quality of editorial comments.
I appreciate the postings about ISDN seminars. The ones selected
appeared to be of high quality; certainly better than the several I have
received junk mail ads about. If my job function had related more
directly to IDSN applications, I'd likely have gone as a direct result
of your recommendation of them.
Keep up the good work, and don't let the complaints get you down.
/ Lars Poulsen <lars@salt.acc.com> (800) 222-7308 or (805) 963-9431 ext 358
ACC Customer Service Affiliation stated for identification only
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1989 21:41 MDT
From: "Frank J. Wancho" <WANCHO@wsmr-simtel20.army.mil>
Subject: Seminar announcements, etc.
I skip reading them. I'd rather not see them at all in this forum.
--Frank
------------------------------
From: Tom Wiencko <stiatl!tom@gatech.edu>
Subject: Re: Understanding ISDN: More Seminars Planned
Date: 28 Jul 89 18:03:12 GMT
Reply-To: Tom Wiencko <stiatl!tom@gatech.edu>
Organization: Sales Technologies Inc., "The Procedure IS the product"
In article <telecom-v09i0256m04@vector.dallas.tx.us> stanwyc@mtfmi.att.com
(D. Stanwyck) writes:
>In article <telecom-v09i0249m03@vector.dallas.tx.us>, telecom@eecs.nwu.edu
>(TELECOM Moderator) says:
>> A while back in the Digest, I printed a schedule of seminars on the subject
>> of 'Understanding ISDN' (Integrated Services Digital Network). These
><<followed by a complete commercial announcement>>
>
>[Sir Moderator's Note: You raise a good point regards commercialization
> ...
>for posting. I'll even type them in! Question to readers: Do you, or do
>you not enjoy/wish to read seminar/exhibition/conference announcements? Tell
I, for one, like to see announcements of conferences and such here. I, also
get lots and lots of mail and such for ISDN and other telephony related
seminars, but most of them find their way straight to the circular file since
I have no way of judging the relative merits of the courses.
Given that this is a moderated group, and that the moderator is doing at least
some checking of the posting, I tend to value the information I receive here
well above that which comes via the US-SNAIL net. In fact, it would also be of
interest to me to occasionally see a review or other comments of courses which
others have attended and found to be of value.
I vote for leaving them in.
Tom
------------------------------
Reply-To: toto!bill@apple.com
Subject: Plugging Telecom Seminars
Date: 28 Jul 89 08:38:39 CDT (Fri)
From: Bill Cerny <toto!bill@apple.com>
I was a little offended by D. Stanwyck's attack on your policy of
announcing telecom seminars, particularly those on ISDN.
I'll try to be more objective than Mr. Stanwyck on this matter, and
state that announcing telecom seminars is a worthy activity, but unless
you've been to one, or have received a review from a reputable person,
I believe it would be prudent to stop short of saying (as you did of
the TRA ISDN seminars) "...the instructors are from Bell Labs and are
really knowledgeable..." (or words to that affect). As much as my
former employer appreciates your plug, I think it might be a bit too
controversial, especially with the likes of D. Stanwyck in the
readership.
You solicited a review of TRA's "Understanding ISDN" seminar a month or
so ago; yet nobody has replied. Maybe you could post a second request
for Digest readers to critique telecom training they have attended.
[By the way, I have accepted a position in San Diego, where I was
living before coming to Kansas for ISDN research. Perhaps I'll have a
chance to put my knowledge to practice: Pac*Bell will offer ISDN
Centrex later this year from 25-30 metropolitan (5ESS) c.o.'s across
the state. I'd like to post a report on that in the Digest, but I
might embarrass my friend John Higdon, who wouldn't believe something
that progressive could happen in his state! 8-) 8-) ]
Bill Cerny
bill@toto.uucp | attmail: attmail!denwa!bill | fax: 619-581-3705
[Moderator's Note: Mr. Cerny was the person who supplied the original message
from TRA, and the followup with the additional cities. PT]
------------------------------
Reply-To: toto!bill@apple.com
Subject: Folks who Understand ISDN
Date: 28 Jul 89 08:22:18 CDT (Fri)
From: Bill Cerny <toto!bill@apple.com>
To Mr. Stanwyck:
I read your recent post in the Telecom Digest concerning ISDN
"fakirs." I recall a posting you made a couple months back about your
work on the ISDN. Indeed, aren't you a member/chair of some ANSI T1
subcommittee(s) on ISDN?
Do you present ISDN fundamentals and applications to AT&T or outside
organizations?
--
Bill Cerny
bill@toto.uucp | attmail: attmail!denwa!bill | fax: 619-581-3705
------------------------------
From: mtfmi!stanwyc@att.att.com
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 89 16:44 EDT
Subject: Re: Folks who Understand ISDN
Bill:
Yes, through March of this year I was vice-chair of the ANSI committee (T1S1.2)
that does ISDN access protocols. I do not, and have not for AT&T, teach/taught
ISDN. (I did guest leacture for a course at the U of Colorado.)
In March of this year I got out of standards and into fulltime education.
I don't teach inside or outside of AT&T for the Education center, though,
rather I am one of the founding faculty members of the Information
Communication Institute of Singapore (ICIS).
ICIS is a new (opens 1/2/90) graduate institute in Telecommunications. I
was selected for my background in data communication and teaching (I am a
member of the graduate faculty at the Univ. of Colorado).
Regarding ISDN fakirs.....I don't accuse TRA Associates of being such,
rather I note that such do exist. TRA - the company the moderator was
pushing, was founded by Mr. Mike Diesel. Mike and I worked together at
Bell Labs (Chicago) until 1985. I didn't feel then, nor do I now, that
Mike knew a great deal about ISDN. Mike has since hired John Swart -
another Chicago Bell Lab'er I knew, and lately Jim Neigh, a New Jersey
Bell Lab'er I have worked with quite a bit. Of the bunch, Mr. Neigh is
undoubtably the most knowledgeable about ISDN.
But TRA doesn't claim to teach all about ISDN. According to a
conversation held last week with their VP Sales, they only try to help
you understand the buzzwords. So as long as they can do that (and I
believe they can) then they have delivered as promised. Unfortuneatly,
many, including the moderator, seem to feel that they are really teaching
ISDN.
There are many other educational seminars taught by far less qualified
people - people who have never tried to either implement or work on the
ISDN standards. Instead, they do as one author does that I know, and
they spend just a short time saying why they think ISDN will never fly (See
Stalling's book on Data Communications). But they advertise that their
two day course will cover all of OSI and ISDN! Oh well, if you believe
the sales pitch, you get what you deserve.
Don Stanwyck _ _
mtfmi!stanwyc o o Kelly Ed. Center
MT 3F-121 || ICIS Faculty
201-957-6693 \__/ AT&T-Bell Labs
[Moderator's Note: Mr. Stanwyck's criticism was the basis for my request
for user input in this matter. PT]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 89 10:33:02 EDT
From: Bennett Todd <bet@orion.mc.duke.edu>
Subject: Re: Understanding ISDN: More Seminars Planned
Remember me -- I'm the "customer who opts for OPTS".
Anyway, you asked:
[Sir Moderator's Note:
> ...
> Question to readers: Do you, or do
>you not enjoy/wish to read seminar/exhibition/conference announcements? Tell
>me, I'll summarize later. PT]
I really like the seminar and conference announcements; I haven't been
tempted to try to go to any yet, but maybe one of these days.... Even
so, I like to know about their existence.
I should say, I really like the announcements *at about their current
frequency* -- they are an insignificant fraction of the volume of
Telecom Digest. Do please keep up the good work, just as you are now.
Thanks!
-Bennett
bet@orion.mc.duke.edu
P.S. I still don't have a phone at home -- and I still love it! Friends
and coworkers just can't believe it. My family is tolerating it, since I
correspond with them via email all the time, and call them from work
regularly -- for purposes of which I've gotten an AT&T calling card. As
is to be expected, since I explicitly don't have home service to tie the
access code to, the number is really weird. Which suits me just fine.
------------------------------
From: Chip Rosenthal <chip@vector.dallas.tx.us>
Subject: Re: Understanding ISDN: More Seminars Planned
Date: 29 Jul 89 16:43:30 GMT
Reply-To: chip@vector.dallas.tx.us
Organization: Dallas Semiconductor
stanwyc@mtfmi.att.com (D. Stanwyck) writes:
>X-TELECOM-Digest: volume 9, issue 256, message 4 of 5
>I, for one, strongly object to this forum, especially as a moderated
>forum, becoming a place for commercial announcements.
I receive an incredible number of such announcements via snail mail every
week. Not all these seminars are bad. In fact, I attended one such
seminar which I found helpful. However, there are soooo many of them
that a full list in TELECOM would also easily grow to annoying size.
The fact that such seminars exist would be of benefit to some TELECOM
readers, and this information is therefore useful and hence publishable.
However, a full schedule isn't especially useful since these seminars are
offered all the time, and a full list could grow to extreme lengths. I
might suggest something in the monthly listing along the lines of "these
places offer regular and frequent seminars" along with contact telno's
would be entirely appropriate.
To claim that the net is no place for commercial information is naive.
I don't want to be barraged with advertising, but I certainly would like
to hear about new products and services which might be of help to me.
Even the oft quoted "no commercial use of the Internet" has fallen into
question; primarly by some reasearch done by Brad Templeton for the news
service his company is running.
So, I agree with the poster not on the grounds that commercial announcements
have no place here, but rather that (1) such a list could grow to annoying
size, and (2) these companies offer the same seminars all the time, and
posting the dates and details provides little useful information.
--
Chip Rosenthal / chip@vector.Dallas.TX.US / Dallas Semiconductor / 214-450-5337
"I wish you'd put that starvation box down and go to bed" - Albert Collins' Mom
------------------------------
Date: 26-JUL-1989 19:38:39.06
From: Kenneth Selling <KSELLING@eagle.wesleyan.edu>
Subject: Is the Monthly Round-up Too Commercial
In TELECOM Digest vol. 9, issue 256, "D. Stanwyck" <stanwyc@mtfmi.att.com>
suggests that our Moderator should not post a monthly round-up of TELECOM
seminars and conferences because they are "commercial announcements".
Our Moderator then asks of us readers:
> Do you, or do you not enjoy/wish to read seminar/exhibition/conference
> announcements? Tell me
Because most of the workshops our Moderator rounds up for us are to further
educate ourselves if we choose, I believe they are very appropriate in the
Digest. I do not believe the exclusive fact that many of them are run by
commercial organizations should make them tabu. In some cases, the only folks
with sufficient resources or expertise to offer these classes are commercial
groups (like AT&T, Bellcore, etc.)
Agreed, there will be an occasional bad apple in the bunch, such as groups
which do not know much about their subject, or are just blatantly out to sell
their products. I feel it is worth that risk to publicize legitimate events.
I also believe this Digest would be a good forum for readers to feed-back poor
experiences they had with any of them (i.e., "It turned out that the 'Bellcore
Seminar on Digital PBXs' was run by some chump named Horace Bellcore, who tried
all day to push the 'Horace Bellcore Connecto-Jet IV PBX' - made in Malaysia.")
Ken Selling
Organization: Wesleyan University
Internet: kselling@eagle.wesleyan.edu
BITNET: kselling%eagle@wesleyan.bitnet
-----------------------------
Date: Fri Jul 28 18:56:49 1989
From: Vance Shipley <xenitec!vances@watmath.uucp>
Subject: Seminar Announcements
>.......... Question to readers: Do you, or do
>you not enjoy/wish to read seminar/exhibition/conference announcements? Tell
>me, I'll summarize later. PT]
I _DO_ want to see them.
Vance Shipley uucp: ..!{uunet!}watmath!xenitec!vances
Linton Technology - SwitchView INTERNET: vances@egvideo.uucp
180 Columbia Street West (soon) vances@xenitec.uucp
Waterloo, Ontario
CANADA tel: (519)746-4460
N2L 3L3 fax: (519)746-6884
------------------------------
From: Telecom Moderator <telecom@eecs.nwu.edu>
Date: Saturday, August 5, 1989 0200
Subject: Seminar Announcements - My View
So here you see the response of the readers who replied to the question
on the propriety of commercial seminar announcements in TELECOM Digest.
There were others, but they requested 'do not publish'. The overall count
was about sixty percent for and forty percent against such postings, as
is illustrated in the messages which appear here.
I am going to continue listing occassional seminars, but give far less space to
the specifics, supplying only the basics of dates, locations and phone
numbers. And generally these will be limited to once a month. It should
be obvious to all there is really no way I personally can be informed on
all aspects of ISDN, nor can I possibly vouch for the authenticity or
quality of any seminar/exhibition/conference being presented. I will supply
the information FYI only, leaving it to each of you to phone for more
details as desired. Reviews by persons in attendance are encouraged and
will be printed.
I hope everyone will consider this a reasonable compromise. I've had a
notice from some folks in London about a new ISDN newsletter sitting in
my pending box for a week now; I was a little schizoid about running it;
even though it seems like an interesting new publication. Maybe I will
do something with it over the weekend.
73's
Patrick Townson
------------------------------
End of TELECOM Digest Special Edition (Seminar News)
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