covert@covert.enet.dec.com (John R. Covert 25-Aug-1989 0931) (08/25/89)
>Moderator's Note: You are in error in saying that the rate for calls from >other countries to the United States is detirmined by AT&T. Apparently what >you are claiming is that AT&T sets the rates for all the telcos everywhere >in the world when the calls are made on AT&T cards. AT&T sets the rates it charges AT&T customers for calls to the U.S. from overseas. This is the agreed upon practice for the handling of international calls. When a person from the U.K. calls home to the U.K. from the U.S. with a British Telecom card, the U.K., not the U.S., rate applies. When an AT&T customer calls the U.S. from the U.K., or Chile, or any other country which allows the use of AT&T cards or which allows AT&T to provide USA-Direct service, the U.S. dertermined rate, which AT&T has filed with the FCC, applies. >Now it so happens that in some cases the rates are the same in both >directions, allowing for money conversion; but this has *nothing* to do with >the fact that the call is billed to an AT&T card. The above three lines have no basis in fact. By charging the U.S. rate for calls to the U.S. from overseas AT&T avoids worrying about currency conversion. >You say your phone bills 'will prove it', however I sincerely doubt you can >produce a phone bills showing a call from every country in the world to the >same phone in the United States and a bill showing a call in the opposite >direction where the price, considering conversion from local currency, is >the same. I travel extensively internationally, and can produce phone bills for calls to the U.S. from many countries. The rate is invariably the AT&T U.S. rate. >The various PTT's set their rates and terms. AT&T does not dictate to them >and tell them what they can or cannot charge. The PTTs set the rates they bill their customers. They do not set the rates AT&T bills AT&T customers; those rates are set by AT&T. Face it, Patrick, you are simply mistaken. Admit that you are wrong. >In some countries, AT&T cards are not even accepted! This is correct. Germany is one example. But collect calls can be placed from Germany through PTT operators, and will be billed at the U.S. rate. Germany doesn't have a rate for collect or credit card calls, because neither concept even exists for calls within Germany or for Germans travelling outside Germany. The same rate will be charged for the collect call to the U.S. whether the call is placed through a Deutsche Bundespost operator or through a USA-Direct operator. And while we're discussing Germany, here are the applicable rates. I travel to Germany at least once or twice a year. Calling the U.S. from Germany, a station-to-station calling card call placed via USA-Direct will cost 6.62 for the first three minutes, 1.09 for each additional minute. No discount periods apply. [Source: AT&T International Rate and Dialing Information Service, 800 874-4000. Confirmed by calls appearing on my phone bill on 2 April 1989.] Calling to Germany from the U.S: Dial Initial Minute Op Assisted 3 Mins Each additional minute Econ Disc Standard Station Person Econ Disc Standard 1.16 1.46 1.94 6.62 8.82 .65 .82 1.09 [Source: AT&T Pub 1WB311 dated 11/88] Calling to the U.S. from Germany, paid in Germany: One message unit (DM 0.23) every 1.882 seconds M-F noon-midnight, every 2.28 seconds at other times. This works out, at the exchange rate of 1.9555 quoted in today's paper, to be DM 7.33 or $3.75 per minute during the higher rate period or DM 6.05 or $3.10 per minute during the cheap rate period. Since hotels charge between DM.50 and DM.70 per message unit, a person calling the U.S. from a hotel could be shocked with a charge of $114.13 for a ten minute call to the U.S. instead of the $37.50 the call would have cost if directly dialled from a private phone or $14.75 if placed through USA-Direct. [Source for German rates: Postbuch der Deutschen Bundespost] >It is *only* on USA Direct calls that the calling card rate is the same coming >here as it is in calls going there. No, Patrick, this is *not* the way it works. When billing a call placed to the U.S. from overseas to an AT&T card, "you pay the same rate whether you use USA-Direct or the local PTT operator." >The charge for USA Direct from Japan does not vary with the time of day. Correct. As I said, the times for discount periods may differ, and there may, in fact, be no discount period for calls back to the U.S. It appears that the discount periods were eliminated for several countries some time within the past few months. >It costs somewhere in between night rate and evening rate from the U.S. My >statements are based upon information which is a couple months old; the >charges may have changed in the meantime. The charges haven't changed in the last few years. You will find that you were charged $8.87 for the first three minutes and $1.35 each additional minute. This rate applies for station-to-station calls from Japan to the U.S. billed in the U.S. regardless of whether they were placed through an operator in Japan or through USA-Direct and regardless of the time of day. It is the same as the day rate for operator assisted calls from the U.S. to Japan. >Moderator's Note: Best tell Mr. Covert about this. He claims calls to or >from the USA and other countries are *always* the same rate when the >AT&T Calling Card is used. As you note, Japan has no time-of-day pricing >to call here. We do have when calling there. Ergo, different rates, even >on the card. I never claimed "calls to or from the USA and other countries are *always* the same rate when the AT&T calling card is used." I said that the rate billed to the AT&T calling card for calls to the U.S. is always the same for USA-Direct and for PTT operator-placed calls. I stated that the U.S. rate applies, but I also stated that discount periods may be different. They may be so different as to be non-existant, or the discount rate may apply, but never the economy rate. Patrick, please don't put words into my mouth, and please check your information before you post answers to people's questions or rebuttals to statements made by readers. You are doing a disservice to the readers of Telecom Digest by posting incorrect information and standing firm on that incorrect information. If you don't have documentation that something is correct, at least indicate that what you are saying is opinion, not fact. /john [Moderator's Note: Okay, it is my 'opinion' that AT&T does not tell the PTT's of the world what they can or cannot charge Americans who use the phones in those countries to call the United States. It is my 'opinion' that AT&T has no authority whatsoever in setting the phone rates in other countries merely because the caller happens to be an American calling to the United States. It may be true that AT&T has that agreement in some places -- but *everywhere* in the world? And if AT&T can and does in fact dictate to the PTT's regarding their (the PTT's) acceptance of AT&T calling cards and rates, then why not calling periods also? Why does AT&T 'permit' even that much latitude in the rate setting? Why don't the PTT's tell AT&T to get lost? An American without a calling card is one who will simply shove a fistful of coins in the phone. Doesn't that make better sense financially to the foreign telco? Does MCI also dictate to the PTT's who connect with MCI-Direct (or whatever it is called)? If not, why not? I don't care what AT&T International Information Service says, I would like someone from British Telecom or someone from Australia or Japan to post a message saying "AT&T sets the rates we are allowed on calls to the USA using the AT&T Card." Just my 'opinion' of course! PT]
gdias@ucdavis.edu (Gihan Dias) (08/28/89)
My opinion is that John is right. I have no idea whether calls using "USA Direct" and AT&T cards are billed at the same rate or not, but the fundamental priciple in billing is, as John said, Any carrier can charge *its* customers whatever it wants, and the carrier in the originating country couldn't care less. For instance, if I make a collect call home (to Sri Lanka), Sri Lanka Telecom makes a charge according to their rates, and if I get a collect call from home, AT&T charges me AT&T's rates for this, not S.L. Telcom's rates. Neither of these rates has much of a relation to (though they are likeley to be higher than) the rates the carriers charger each other for the call. Gihan
wtho@uunet.uu.net (Tom Hofmann) (08/30/89)
From article <telecom-v09i0327m01@vector.dallas.tx.us>, by covert@covert. enet.dec.com (John R. Covert 25-Aug-1989 0931): > Calling to the U.S. from Germany, paid in Germany: > One message unit (DM 0.23) every 1.882 seconds M-F noon-midnight, every 2.28 > seconds at other times. This works out, at the exchange rate of 1.9555 quoted > in today's paper, to be DM 7.33 or $3.75 per minute during the higher rate > period or DM 6.05 or $3.10 per minute during the cheap rate period. Since > hotels charge between DM.50 and DM.70 per message unit, a person calling the > U.S. from a hotel could be shocked with a charge of $114.13 for a ten minute > call to the U.S. instead of the $37.50 the call would have cost if directly > dialled from a private phone or $14.75 if placed through USA-Direct. > [Source for German rates: Postbuch der Deutschen Bundespost] Your information is out of date. The price for one message unit is still DM 0.23 but the time for one unit on calls to the U.S. has increased to almost 4 seconds (I have no exact information at hand). The rate for one minute is therefore about DM 3.50 or $1.80 (all day---there is no longer a cheap rate period for overseas calls). It is still correct, however, that hotels charge up to DM .70 for a DM .23 unit. Tom Hofmann wtho@cgch.UUCP
telecom@eecs.nwu.edu (TELECOM Moderator) (09/01/89)
In recent messages, some readers have commented that on calls from foreign countries to the United States, the call is billed at the same rate as it is from the USA to there; provided the call is billed to the AT&T Calling Card. Mr. Covert and others have suggested that AT&T bills the calls at rates it has established. There is some authority for this belief, since on page 10 of the AT&T <International Telecommunications Guide> we note that ".....*with the exception of collect and AT&T Card Calls*, billing rates are detirmined by each international telephone administration...." In other words, says AT&T, collect calls and AT&T Card Call rates are NOT set by the PTT's. Is this true in every case? With an associate, several calls were made this week to the AT&T International Rate and Dialing Information Center (1-800-874-4000). We asked for the rate in both directions, when using the AT&T card, and found that generally, the rates are the same. But a curious exception to the rule was right under our nose: our neighbor to the south, Mexico. Calls from most places in the United States <to> Mexico: (Station calls, dialed using the AT&T card) 7 AM to 7 PM $2.69 for the first minute; $1.53 each additional minute. An 80 cent surcharge is added for the use of the card. However in fairness, two reps said it was not added, and one said it was. From 7 PM to 7 AM it was $2.06 for the first minute, and $1.02 each additional minute. For three minutes then, the day charge is $2.69 times 3 = $8.07 At night, this would be $2.06 times 3 = $6.18 From Mexico to the United States: At all hours, $8.99 for the first three minutes; $2.45 each additional. In addition, two reps warned that "....the Mexico Telephone Company sets the rates on this, *we don't*, and that the caller should expect a surcharge of $2 added to each international station call made with the AT&T card, or a $4 surcharge added to each person call.....'.....and many times the Mexican operators insist on making it a person-to-person call....' said one rep at AT&T. So we have $8.07 to call there (or $8.87 if Card surcharge is added) and $8.89 basic plus $2.00 to call here. As part of the same group of messages, a couple readers, including Mr. Covert, stated that when using USA DIRECT, one could be connected *anyplace* in the USA. This is almost correct: On page 13 in the <International Telecommunications Guide> we note that USA DIRECT does not accept or handle calls to area 907. I do not know if USA DIRECT handles calls to 809 or not, or if so, just to the 'American' parts of the area code, all of it or none of it. Patrick Townson
hamilton@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu (Wayne Hamilton) (09/01/89)
> 7 AM to 7 PM $2.69 for the first minute; $1.53 each additional minute. > An 80 cent surcharge is added for the use of the card. However in fairness, > two reps said it was not added, and one said it was. From 7 PM to 7 AM > it was $2.06 for the first minute, and $1.02 each additional minute. > > For three minutes then, the day charge is $2.69 times 3 = $8.07 > At night, this would be $2.06 times 3 = $6.18 Shouldn't that be 2.69+(2*1.53)=$5.75 and 2.06+(2*1.02)=$4.10? wayne hamilton U of Il and US Army Corps of Engineers CERL UUCP: {convex,uunet}!uiucuxc!osiris!hamilton ARPA: hamilton@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu USMail: Box 476, Urbana, IL 61801 CSNET: hamilton%osiris@uiuc.csnet Phone: (217)384-4310 [Moderator's Note: Yes and no, depending. Here in the USA we pay more for the first minute only, because surcharges, the operator's costs, etc are factored into it. Additional minutes incur none of these extra charges. But my comparison was intended to match the three minutes from Mexico. I guess your way of stating it is better, but it leaves the discrepancy even larger between calls to/from USA <==> Mexico on the Card, doesn't it. PT]