telecom@eecs.nwu.edu (TELECOM Moderator) (11/29/89)
I never cease to be amazed at the careless and sometimes ignorant handling of international calls for directory assistance by AT&T Operators. Maybe Chicago is an exception to the rule. Maybe every other city in the USA with an AT&T Operating Center has nice, pleasant, well-trained operators with good diction and an understanding of international telephone customs. Is there anyone here besides me old enough to remember White Plains, NY and the well-trained operators who handled international traffic in the 1950 - 1960 period? At my place of full time employment, I work for a firm of attornies, or else they all work for me, I forget which. I talk to clients of our firm around the world almost every day. When the difference in times is too dramatic, i.e. Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong, and India -- ah yes! -- India! -- I take the file home with me, set my alarm clock for 0300 hours, get out of bed, go sit in my office at home and call India or wherever, to exhort and harangue people in far away places to pay their bills or settle whatever grievance our client may have with them. **Getting the phone number is ninety percent of the battle!** Directory Assistance in some countries -- India comes to mind -- is the absolute pits. Compound that with what passes for an AT&T Operator these days, and thirty minutes can easily pass just getting the number! No two operators handle it the same way: some insist on making twice the work, by requiring me to give them all the details of the person or business I am trying to reach. I have to spell it two or three times for them. Then, and only then, they try to reach Delhi, only to dial three times, and three times in a row get the response, 'your international call cannot be completed at this time in the country you are calling', meaning all circuits busy. So we have wasted five minutes because the operator was never trained as in the olden days to do what is called 'overlap'; that is, set up the connection to DA and collect the information from the caller while waiting for Delhi to respond. Tuesday night I spent 27 minutes, with *seven different attempts* trying to get DA in Delhi. One operator attempted six times, and six times in a row got intercepted with 'your call cannot be completed as dialed', which she insisted to me meant all circuits were busy. When another operator did finally get a circuit to Delhi, and had collected all the information from me after several painful attempts, she sat there screaming at Delhi to the point it became an embarassment to me: 'Hello New Delhi! This is the United States!!!! We want Directory Assistance!!!!! Hello, can you hear me!!!!!!!!!!!!' Her ethnic accent was terrible, her diction very poor, and the poor operator in Delhi kept screaming back that she could not understand what it was we wanted. The AT&T Operator was spelling the name wrong, mispronouncing the section of of the city, and not letting me get a word in edgewise. Finally, Delhi abandoned the call, my operator tried again, got an NC condition four times in a row and told me to try some other time. And this is not a rare occurance. It is a daily thing for me. AT&T wants to be a leader in international calls, yet there is no provision for direct-dial directory assistance; many operators are very poorly trained, and the customer is always wrong and knows nothing of what he speaks. Do any operators speak a second language? No! Do any realize how phone systems work in other countries? No! Apparently AT&T quit training their operators with anything other than a simple knowledge of how to press a few buttons sometime around thirty years ago. Why did they get rid of the White Plains international operators several years ago? Why did they dispense with Pittsburg a few years ago? And if I wrote a letter of complaint tomorrow to the Chairman I would receive back a reply in a few days; not from the Chairman, mind you, but from some highly-placed flunky authorized to respond in his name, thanking me and apologizing. And what would change? Nothing! Yet AT&T keeps wondering why their long-time customers are abandoning them in droves. Maybe they could reverse the trend if they would take the people in the front ranks -- the people who deal with customers day in and day out -- the operators and service representatives -- and train them properly. At least that would be a start. Patrick Townson
gutierre@nsipo.arc.nasa.gov (Robert Michael Gutierrez) (11/30/89)
Patrick Townsend, telecom@eecs.nwu.edu (TELECOM Moderator) writes: >I never cease to be amazed at the careless and sometimes ignorant >handling of international calls for directory assistance by AT&T >Operators. [...] >Is there anyone here besides me old enough to remember White Plains, >NY and the well-trained operators who handled international traffic in >the 1950 - 1960 period? I remember them from a call to Italy in 1974. Wern't they around as recent as 1983? I seem to remember a call attempt through a local TSPS operator who called N.Y. to attempt also. > **Getting the phone number is ninety percent of the battle!** >Directory Assistance in some countries -- India comes to mind -- is >the absolute pits. Compound that with what passes for an AT&T Operator >these days, and thirty minutes can easily pass just getting the >number! >No two operators handle it the same way: some insist on making twice >the work, by requiring me to give them all the details of the person >or business I am trying to reach........... I think that was courtesy of us at MCI who also used AT&T to reach Intl. DA. As a matter of fact, we had 'special lines' to do that with. 'Special Lines' meaning that we had some local POTS lines with AT&T as the primary carrier, so that some TSPS/TOPS operator didn't ask the usual 'Is AT&T Your Primary Carrier???' when our number displayed on her console with the notation that we otherwise would have dialed via 10288+ >times for them. Then, and only then, they try to reach Delhi, only to >dial three times, and three times in a row get the response, 'your >international call cannot be completed at this time in the country you >are calling',............ I do remember it was amusing that when MCI got so-called 'World-Wide Calling', I would get AT&T's tandem recording ('415-4T') when the call would not make it. We were told that we were using Megacom lines to pass international traffic that we didn't have direct or transit lines for, but our customers didn't know that! >Tuesday night I spent 27 minutes, with *seven different attempts* >trying to get DA in Delhi. One operator attempted six times, and six >times in a row got intercepted with 'your call cannot be completed as >dialed', which she insisted to me meant all circuits were busy........ You HAVE to remember the country that you're calling!!! Even when we got transit lines to India (through Italy, I think), it was still the same, 90 percent blockage and the worst lines I could ever think of. I thought FTS lines without echo-cancellers were bad, but try to do international lines with no E/C's!!! Like talking into a 1000 mile tin can........ (FTS = Federal Telecommuncations System) >another operator did finally get a circuit to Delhi, and had collected >all the information from me after several painful attempts, she sat >there screaming at Delhi to the point it became an embarassment to me: >'Hello New Delhi! This is the United States!!!! We want Directory >Assistance!!!!! Hello, can you hear me!!!!!!!!!!!!'......... I have nothing but sympathy for you. Unfortunately, it's a fact of life in India. >And this is not a rare occurance. It is a daily thing for me. AT&T >wants to be a leader in international calls, yet there is no provision >for direct-dial directory assistance;.................. I thought I'd NEVER see the day I'd be defending AT&T, BUT GUESS WHAT..... How CAN you have direct dial Intl DA??? For maybe a few countries that could handle the traffic, fine. But then you have the problem of the other countries that cannot speak good English, have poor lines (which would cause the customer to hang up and re-try, causing more congestion), callers who just want some number with no intention of calling the number in question, etc. You just can't do it right now. Now, if you had an electronic database available between telcos/post offices, this conversation would be moot. >.................................... many operators are very poorly >trained, and the customer is always wrong and knows nothing of what he >speaks. Do any operators speak a second language? No! Do any realize >how phone systems work in other countries? No! Right on the mark. But remember your key words there: "Very poorly trained"..... Where do you think the cutbacks started when AT&T started losing the market??? It's really didn't take that much to learn a TSPS position, and now the new TOPS positions, everything is available on the keyboard in front of the operator. At least this was probably the thinking when the training budgets were chopped..... >Why did they get rid of the White Plains international operators >several years ago? Why did they dispense with Pittsburg a few years >ago? When I worked the 4 short (fortunately!) months at MCI customer service in San Francisco, one of the first things I did was to compile a list of the other countries DA numbers, and call them directly, and I didn't interrogate the customer first for name, rank, and serial number. Even though I did hate customer service, it was no reason to take it out on the callers, and nosy supervisors made sure of that. >And if I wrote a letter of complaint tomorrow to the Chairman I would >receive back a reply in a few days; not from the Chairman, mind you, >but from some highly-placed flunky authorized to respond in his name, >thanking me and apologizing. And what would change? Nothing! For the average person, unfortunately, yes. You, on the other hand, should know by now that probably he's on attmail somewhere, just like Bill McGowan is on MCI Mail, and probably US Sprint's CEO is on Telemail. >Yet AT&T keeps wondering why their long-time customers are abandoning >them in droves. Maybe they could reverse the trend if they would take >the people in the front ranks -- the people who deal with customers >day in and day out -- the operators and service representatives -- and >train them properly. At least that would be a start. I believe that is not only a start, it should not have gotten to this point to begin with. Remember, that when you get an AT&T operator on line, and the operator has an attitude problem, he/she is representing AT&T, and I would take it as the actual attitude of the company he/she is representing, and a letter so worded to the local Customer Service Director or VP would probably be listened to a lot more closely (with CC:'s noted in the letter to the usual telco publications like Communcations Week). Remember, CEO's are only worried about the future of the companies, but local Directors/VP's are more worried about day-to-day operations and looking good to get out of those positions (ie: Promotions). Can You Say 'Disclaimer'??? I knew you could...... I SPEAK ONLY FOR MYSELF!!! | Robert Gutierrez -- NSI Network Ops Center <gutierre@nsipo.arc.nasa.gov> | | NASA Science Internet Project, Bldg 233-8, Moffett Field, CA. 94035-5000 | |--------------------------------------------------------------------------| |"I want some......I need some......Emotion.....And More........" (a song) | [Moderator's Note: Thank you for your remarks. A brief response is in order: Like Oscar Wilde, I could care less what is said about me in the [electronic] papers as long as they spell my name correctly. It suffixes with 'son'; not 'send'. The way to implement and administer DA on an international basis is the way it is done here in the USA: Dial country code + city code + 555-1212. Let the gateway switches translate that into an actual number, just as '6ll', '411', '911' and '800-xxx-yyyy' are presently translated into whatever number(s) they ring into. Overseas points with 800 service from the USA are handled this way. Somehow the other end even overcomes the language barrier when speaking with Americans. To prevent abuse, bill these calls like any other DA: Allow one or two free each month or allow the DA call free if an actual call is made to the same country and city code within the same billing cycle. To further prevent abuse, when answer is detected at the distant end, play a recorded message at the operator, first in English and second in the predominant language of that country: 'Operator, United States calling for Directory Enquiry Only! Do not extend the caller! Do not connect the caller!' Charge for anything over the free allotment of DA calls. MCI screwed up the concept of free long distance DA in this country, AT&T might as well charge for overseas DA as well after the freebies are used each month. Generate an Exceptions Report for review in the Security Department of international DA calls lasting over two or three minutes, or maybe over ten minutes in the case of India, Hong Kong and a couple others. You tell me why it wouldn't work. PT]
dmr@csli.stanford.edu (Daniel M. Rosenberg) (11/30/89)
telecom@eecs.nwu.edu (TELECOM Moderator) writes: >I never cease to be amazed at the careless and sometimes ignorant >handling of international calls for directory assistance by AT&T >Operators. >Maybe Chicago is an exception to the rule. Maybe every other city in [nightmare DA stories deleted] Maybe it is just the way AT&T works out here in Northern California, but the few times I have tried, the AT&T operator asks for the country/city, calls it up, and hands me over to them without any further ado. It has been up to me to handle any language difficulties, but the AT&T operator doesn't bug me. # Daniel M. Rosenberg // Stanford CSLI // Eat my opinions, not Stanford's. # dmr@csli.stanford.edu // decwrl!csli!dmr // dmr%csli@stanford.bitnet
covert@covert.enet.dec.com (John R. Covert 30-Nov-1989 0343) (11/30/89)
>The way to implement and administer DA on an international basis is the way >it is done here in the USA: >Dial country code + city code + 555-1212. Let the gateway switches >translate that into an actual number, just as '6ll', '411', '911' and >'800-xxx-yyyy' are presently translated into whatever number(s) they ring >into. >You tell me why it wouldn't work. PT] I'd like to have direct access to international D.A., but there are a number of problems, many of which are not under the control of any single body: 1. Country code + city code + 555-1212 isn't always available. In Sydney, Oz, it happens to be someone's valid phone number. This is certainly true in many other places. 2. Sometimes it's too long. The city code for Rimpar, Germany, is 9365. +49 9365 555-1212 is more digits than our local exchanges can handle. The above two problems could be handled by some other numbering scheme. As I said, I'd like to see direct access, but that's not the end of the story. 3. We can't force our culture on other countries. D.A. operators there do not expect calls from customers. They are in the business of only supporting other operators. We're lucky in the U.S. that AT&T will even call overseas to get local assistance. In Europe, international D.A. (and national D.A. for that matter) is provided by centralized operating centers (which often take a _loooong_ time to answer). They have telephone books (really, I kid you not) for almost the whole world. Only when they don't have the book (no matter how out of date the one they have is), do they _maybe_ make the call for you. By international agreement, these operators only accept calls from other operators, who are _supposed_ to be trained to speak carefully, to ask only the pertinent questions, to have all the information available when the operator answers, to use phonetic alphabets when necessary, and all sorts of things that you or I would do, but not Joe Sixpack. Our directory assistance system is much better. But it's our system, not theirs. 4. More culture problems. D.A. operators in some countries will extend the call to the called party after providing the number. Remember, they are used to an operator being on the line. We can't change the culture in other countries. /john
bm24+@andrew.cmu.edu (Berlin S. Moore) (12/01/89)
As a former AT&T International Operator, I would like to respond to your article. One reason that the operators here take the caller's information and pass it to the foreign operator is that frustrated American customers have a tendency to be abusive to the foreign operators. Once you get them mad, they become very uncooperative to all Americans. Given that, then, it makes sense to take all the details before trying to establish the connection with directory assistance. You can't hold up an international circuit while an American operator gets the details from the local customer. If you have been having a particularly hard time obtaining a number, ask your operator for the service assistant. Sometimes they can expedite things for you. Also ask for the service assistant when you have a particularly incompetent operator on the line. That operator can be singled out for special training. On the other hand, don't forget to ask for the service assistant to commend an operator when you get particularly good service. Pittsburgh International Operating Center is still alive & well, but they mainly only handle difficult calls now that the local operators can't handle, such as High Seas calls, & calls to hard-to-reach places like Afghanistan. Berlin (Bonnie) Moore PPP RRR EEEE PPP User Consultant P P R R E P P PREPnet NIC PPP RRR EEE PPP 530 N Neville ST P RR E P Pgh, Pa. 15213 P R R E P 412-268-7873 P R R EEEE P net bm24@andrew.cmu.edu Pennsylvania Research & Economic Partnership Network
klg@dukeac.UUCP (Kim Greer) (12/01/89)
>>.................................... many operators are very poorly >>trained, and the customer is always wrong and knows nothing of what he >>speaks. Do any operators speak a second language? No! Do any realize >>how phone systems work in other countries? No! For people griping about operators not speaking a second language, please remember: In India alone (where the complainer was complaining about) there are literally scores of _spoken_ languages. It is unrealistic to expect the local or the remote operator, picked essentially at random, to be fluent in your specific one. (Granted: English is widely spoken in India). >>speaks. Do any operators speak a second language? No! Take a poll: How many people on the street in the US speak a second language well enough to tell a non-English speaking operator what phone services they would like? I think you will find there are not many, percentage-wise. Operators are not language junkies; they are (educationally) ordinary people for the most part. >>speaks. Do any operators speak a second language? No! Which ones would you like them to speak: English, French, Spanish, German, Dutch, Portuguese, Chinese (lots of dialects), Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Hindi, Urdu, Serbo-Croatian, Hungarian, Farsi, Russian (lots of variants), Italian, Turkish, Gaelic, Tamil, [lots of Papua-New Guinea variants], Greek, Arabic, Swahili, ... ? Another "Granted": English is widely spoken throughout the world (though not necessarily with an accent easily understandable to many Americans) __BUT__ English is not spoken by the majority of the world's inhabitants. Don't expect instant, unscheduled translation services for the cost of Int. DA.
segal%cell.mot.COM@uunet.uu.net> (12/04/89)
bm24+@andrew.cmu.edu (Berlin S. Moore) writes: >Pittsburgh >International Operating Center is still alive & well, but they mainly >only handle difficult calls now that the local operators can't handle, >such as High Seas calls, & calls to hard-to-reach places like >Afghanistan. As any of you other Letterman fans know, David had been playing telephone chess with Gary Kasporvo (sp?), the world's greatest chesse player. Dave was calling Gary each night, wherever Gary happened to be; Paris, Moscow, Belgrad (sp?) , or London. Durring the second week of the game, a female voice was heard chatting with Gary when Dave picked up the phone. Dave asked "Who is this". She replied "I'm the international operator, Mr. Letterman. I've been handling your calls all week." He asked her to get off the line and then proceded with the game. The next night, she was again talking with Gary in Moscow. This time, Dave asked her name, and she told him it's Kathy. Dave asked "Where are you?" And she replied "Pittsburgh". So, not only is the Pittsburgh I.O.C. alive and well, but an operator there by the name of Kathy has been introduced to the millions of Letterman fans across the country. B.T.W., Letterman lost, in case you coulnd't have guessed. Gary Segal, Motorola C.I.D. 1501 W. Shure Drive ...!uunet!motcid!segal Arlington Heights, IL 60004 Disclaimer: The above is all my fault. +1 708 632-2354
das@cs.ucla.edu (David Smallberg) (12/06/89)
In article <telecom-v09i0546m01@chinacat.lonestar.org> klg@dukeac.UUCP (Kim Greer) writes: >>>speaks. Do any operators speak a second language? No! > Operators are not language junkies; they are >(educationally) ordinary people for the most part. >Which ones would you like them to speak: English, French, Spanish, >German, Dutch, Portuguese, Chinese (lots of dialects), Japanese, >Korean, Vietnamese, Hindi, Urdu, Serbo-Croatian, Hungarian, Farsi, >Russian (lots of variants), Italian, Turkish, Gaelic, Tamil, [lots of >Papua-New Guinea variants], Greek, Arabic, Swahili, ... ? Maybe it's just the U.S. that's backward, then. A Japanese acquaintance of mine was an operator for KDD (Japan's international phone company), and she spoke Japanese and English well, plus enough Mandarin, Korean, and French to handle most telephone requests. She said most other KDD operators could handle phone transactions in four or five major languages. The last time I used an international operator in the U.S., I asked her as an aside what languages she spoke other than English. She said none. As Yakov Smirnov would say, "What a country!" David Smallberg, das@cs.ucla.edu, ...!{uunet,ucbvax,rutgers}!cs.ucla.edu!das
ccplumb@rose.waterloo.edu (Colin Plumb) (12/08/89)
While I was in Europe last summer, I noticed that many operators could handle 2 or 3 languages, and the *international* ones many more. You'd think if I dialled the country code for Germany, it would be a hint that speaking german would be useful? (No, I haven't checked the situation in Canada, not having anyone in Germany I want to call right now. I'm pretty sure they all know how to cope with French, if only to forward you to a French-speaking operator. I've occasionally been answered with telephoniste, but I just start speaking in English and all is fine.) I have to admit that there are plenty of places I don't reasonably expect an operator to be able to handle, but I don't think western Europe is asking too much. -Colin [Moderator's Note: Colin and others dialing into an intercept message in Quebec area codes may have noticed that the taped message is frequently (usually?) recited first in French, then in English. PT]