covert@covert.enet.dec.com (John R. Covert 14-Dec-1989 1048) (12/14/89)
>Does anyone have an idea how to get the "real", out-of-country-callable >number for a company which only has published the 1-800 number ? If you know the name of the company and the city it's in, you should be able to call your own country's international directory assistance number in order to get the regular listed directory number of the company (which may or may not be answered by the same people who answer the 800 number). Although some 800 numbers have a corresponding regular number, this is not always the case. Historically, when there was one phone company, 800 service was provided by routing the 800 number to a local central office. However, depending on the destination, the translation may have been to a dialable number or it may have been to a completely fictitious number which could not be reached except with the 800 number. Even in the cases where there was a real number, in the old days it was contrary to the tariffs to dial it, because the old-style billing on 800 Service was generated based on the usage to this number. If you called it as a regular number, the 800 customer still paid for the call (and you did, too), and the wrong amount of revenue was generated (a real big no-no for a regulated monopoly). Now that there are many long distance companies providing 800 service, it is more common for there to be a regular number and the billing is usually handled in a more rational manner. However, this still is not always the case. The 800 service may be provided on trunks directly from the long distance carrier, with no regular number associated with it, or the fictitious numbers may still be used, or the real numbers may "belong" to the long distance carrier, not to the customer. Even when there is a regular number, the customer may not wish it to be given out, so the long distance companies are not authorized to provide the translated number. And finally, 800 Service is pretty sophisticated. If I call 800 221-2000 to reach TWA Reservations, I will reach a different reservation center depending on what part of the country I'm calling from and what time of day it is. As Patrick already mentioned, there is 800 Directory Assistance, but giving out translated numbers is neither part of their job nor possible for the reasons stated above. >one cannot direct-dial a US directory assistance (areacode + 555 1212) >from outside the United States (we tried). Why ? This is not unique to the United States. I know of no case where customers in one country can call the directory assistance number in another country. Your own country's international directory assistance operator should be able to provide you any information the NPA+555-1212 operator could provide. The reason? Mainly because CCITT recommendations suggest that local operators should handle international directory assistance calls. This is done to ensure that only "trained" persons are on the line dealing with a possible language barrier, and to ensure that the information is presented in the CCITT approved format. (Whether operators are really trained to do this or not is another story. See my article in V9#543.) Also, your local telephone company or PTT may not be willing to spend money on international circuits being used for a service that cannot be charged at the full international call rate -- and many European countries will have a large set of foreign directories in their own international directory assistance bureau to use rather than making the call. >There are no services which we could call who could make us a almost-free >(for them) call to a 1-800 number, while charging us for this service. I've seen ads in some airline magazines for companies which do provide services similar to this. In fact, they provide local or toll-free numbers in many European countries that you can call and be connected to their message center, where they will connect calls, relay messages and so forth. Maybe someone remembers the name of one of these companies. I don't think their service is cheap. >Finally, I called a good friend of mine in the US and had him call the >Intel 1-800 and ask what their "real" number is. THEY REFUSED TO TELL >THIS, SINCE THE NUMBER WAS "INTERNAL" EVEN AFTER HE EXPLAINED WHAT THE >SITUATION WAS! Well, now you're just dealing with a person whose ability to handle a customer located outside the U.S. is less than satisfactory. If this customer service department is not willing to give out the number for their local switchboard, then there's not much else we can say about it. Too bad your friend in the U.S. didn't have three-way calling or call forwarding. He could have connected you. >Is Intel customer service always this sticky? Sounds like this is beyond the scope of TELECOM Digest, and I hope the Moderator will not permit this rathole to develop. /john [Moderator's Note: Customer service problems *within the realm of telephone companies, telephone equipment manufacturers, etc* is okay here. But as Mr. Covert points out, if a company does not wish to give out their phone number in order to receive calls from customers, there is little more we can say about them here. Write them off and find another equipment supplier if possible. PT]
otto@jyu.fi (Otto J. Makela) (12/14/89)
Does anyone have an idea how to get the "real", out-of-country-
callable number for a company which only has published the 1-800
number ?
This came up like this: We have a very funny kind of a problem with a
Bell Technologies multi-RS-232 card. It's pretty late and we should
try to get the machine and the card to the customer in the morning, of
course in a fully operational status. The people who delivered this
card to us are not at work at this time (not surprising, it being
1AM!).
However, Bell Technologies has a customer help line number on their
manual. On the forlorn hope that they have seen this problem before,
we dial them. We get an answering machine saying they no longer are
Bell Technologies, but a part of Intel Corp. AND THEY ONLY GIVE A
1-800 NUMBER ! We of course cannot call this number from Europe.
After some messing around with Finnish outlands directory
assist and American directory assistance operators, we are told: a)
one cannot direct-dial a US directory assistance (areacode + 555 1212)
from outside the United States (we tried). Why ?
a) A 1-800 number cannot be traced back to the owner's "real" number,
since there is no 1-800 directory assistance. True or false ?
b) There are no services which we could call who could make us a
almost-free (for them) call to a 1-800 number, while charging us for
this service. Really, no-one has thought of this great business
opportunity ?
Finally, I called a good friend of mine in the US and had him call the
Intel 1-800 and ask what their "real" number is. THEY REFUSED TO TELL
THIS, SINCE THE NUMBER WAS "INTERNAL" EVEN AFTER HE EXPLAINED WHAT THE
SITUATION WAS ! What they did give him was two numbers to the UK and
Finland Intel offices. I can make a bet that the Finnish Intel has
never even heard of BellTech, and I'd be surprised if the UK Intel can
help us with this problem at all. Anyway, it's way past business
hours in Europe at this time, so these numbers are no use to me now.
Is Intel customer service always this sticky ?
Anyone care to comment ?
* * * Otto J. Makela (otto@jyu.fi, MAKELA_OTTO_@FINJYU.BITNET) * * * * * * *
* Phone: +358 41 613 847, BBS: +358 41 211 562 (CCITT, Bell 2400/1200/300) *
* Mail: Kauppakatu 1 B 18, SF-40100 Jyvaskyla, Finland, EUROPE *
* * * freopen("/dev/null","r",stdflame); * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
[Moderator's Note: I will only respond to (a): Yes there is 1-800-555-1212
for obtaining listed 800 numbers. You can't call it or most 800
numbers because the called party has not agreed to accept charges from
outside the United States (or Canada). PT]GREEN@wharton.upenn.edu (Scott D. Green) (12/14/89)
I was involved in a similar situation in the UK - it was the middle of
the British night when I needed to book a flight back to NY.
Everything in Europe, it seemed, shut down before midnite. Directory
assistance (800, 212, 718, etc) only had 800- numbers to call, with
not a clue as to how to reach them from overseas.
==========================
[Moderator's Note: You might also try 312, and 202. Most large
airlines with offices in NYC will probably have offices in Chicago.
For the two largest carriers in the USA, you can call their Chicago
offices as follows: United Airlines 312-569-3000; American Airlines,
312-372-8000. British Airways only has an 800 number here. PT]ken@cup.portal.com (12/15/89)
I had a similar experience on a recent trip to Melbourne, Australia. I had forgotton to reconfirm my return seat the next day and the Sydney ticket office was closed. I tried using AT&T's USA Direct to get the US International Desk, but the operator wouldn't put the call through to United's 800 number. As a last desperate measure :), I had the local operator get me the local United number in Chicago, then placed an international call to that number. Seems to me it cost about $8, but at least I didn't lose my seat! Ken Jongsma ken@cup.portal.com
jsol@bu-it.bu.edu (12/16/89)
Some Boston area airlines have 617-XXX-XXXX numbers which ring directly at the airport (most of them were downtown Boston numbers, but that could change now that the Airport exchange is ESS (it was crossbar before). Depends on how many lines there are, and how much they want to save money vs. change their phone number. jsol
deej@bellcore.bellcore.com (David Lewis) (12/16/89)
In article <2130@accuvax.nwu.edu>, otto@jyu.fi (Otto J. Makela) writes: > Does anyone have an idea how to get the "real", out-of-country- > callable number for a company which only has published the 1-800 > number ? I can recommend the technique suggested by Anna Robrock in an article on international telecom in the latest issue of IEEE Communications Magazine. (Paraphrasing, cause I don't have the article on me. Note that Ms. Robrock lives in Italy). "I call the Italtel operator and, in my best colloquial Italian, swear at these idiotic self-centered Americans who think they're the whole world, and see if I can get him or her to get through to a US operator and look up the number. If she/he won't, I hang up and try again in a few minutes to see if I get another operator." David G Lewis ...!bellcore!nvuxr!deej (@ Bellcore Navesink Research & Engineering Center) "If this is paradise, I wish I had a lawnmower."
jimmy@denwa.uucp (Jim Gottlieb) (12/16/89)
In article <2130@accuvax.nwu.edu> otto@jyu.fi (Otto J. Makela) writes: >AND THEY ONLY GIVE A >1-800 NUMBER ! We of course cannot call this number from Europe. Spending most of my time in Japan lately, I come across this problem constantly. In fact, I had a DISA (Direct Inward Station Access) installed on my home Centrex here in L.A. to help with this problem. Unfortunately, I have problems breaking its dial tone from Japan. So I'm back in the same boat. It just does not occur to people in the U.S. that people outside North America can not call their (800) number. Recently, I saw an ad in the Far Eastern Economic Review directed towards business people in Asia. And the only number given in the ad was their U.S. (800) number! Since computer hardware in Japan is twice the price, we try to buy everything in the U.S. and ship it over. I use magazines like Byte, Unix World, and PC to track down what we need. The advertisers who do not provide a non-(800) number can't get my business. Perhaps one more example of American businesses not doing what it takes to get more international business (but again, this subject is beyond the scope of this group). Jim Gottlieb E-Mail: <jimmy@denwa.uucp> or <jimmy@pic.ucla.edu> or <attmail!denwa!jimmy> V-Mail: (213) 551-7702 Fax: 478-3060 The-Real-Me: 824-5454
wrf@mab.ecse.rpi.edu (Wm Randolph Franklin) (12/16/89)
In article <2156@accuvax.nwu.edu> covert@covert.enet.dec.com (John R. Covert) writes: >And finally, 800 Service is pretty sophisticated. If I call 800 >221-2000 to reach TWA Reservations, I will reach a different >reservation center depending on what part of the country I'm calling >from and what time of day it is. That feature really bugged me a few years ago when I, living in CA at the time, wanted to check on my IRS return, which had been filed in NY. The IRS 800 number connects to a regional office, they'd won't give out the non-800 equivalent for other offices, and each office has access to only the records for its region. (I finally persuaded them to transfer me on an internal tie line, but they were reluctant to.) So its not just international callers who have problems with 800 numbers. Wm. Randolph Franklin Internet: wrf@ecse.rpi.edu (or @cs.rpi.edu) Bitnet: Wrfrankl@Rpitsmts Telephone: (518) 276-6077; Telex: 6716050 RPI TROU; Fax: (518) 276-6261 Paper: ECSE Dept., 6026 JEC, Rensselaer Polytechnic Inst, Troy NY, 12180
singer@uunet.uu.net (David Singer) (12/19/89)
Many airlines have "city ticket offices" in cities all across the country; here in San Jose, the yellow pages have reservations listings for American, Canadian, China, Continental, Delta, Iberia, Japan, Korean, Lufthansa, Mexicana, TWA, UTA, United, and Varig, as well as many strictly domestic carriers. Also, your friendly neighborhood travel agent probably has a local phone number you could use from abroad. [I realize this isn't strictly Telecom-related, but thought it would help answer the specific question.] David Singer (singer@ibm.com)
ceb@csli.stanford.edu (Charles Buckley) (12/20/89)
[Moderator's Note: I will only respond to (a): Yes there is 1-800-555-1212 for obtaining listed 800 numbers. You can't call it or most 800 numbers because the called party has not agreed to accept charges from outside the United States (or Canada). PT] But no-one's *asking* them to pay for the call - just accept it. The restrictiveness of this practice boggles my mind, too. Do there exist 800 numbers you can call from abroad at all? I don't think so.
bruner@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu (John Bruner) (12/20/89)
Twice I've had problems similar to those experienced by out-of-country callers when I wanted to call a special phone number from the wrong state. The first time I was calling from California concerning my soon-to-be-established service in Illinois, and the only number I had was an 800 number that (naturally) only worked within the state of Illinois. Fortunately in that case I had a Champaign-Urbana telephone book which listed the general office number in area code 312. (They couldn't handle my request, but they did give me a different 800 number.) The second incident occurred when I needed to clear up a billing problem on my just-disconnected Pacific Bell service. I was now in Illinois. Pac*Bell (at least in the part of the Bay Area where I was living) had instituted a special 811 prefix for all of its office numbers. I guess that the goal was to route calls to the nearest office. Naturally, these 811-xxxx numbers didn't work long-distance. A call to directory assistance yielded the 811 number; however, after I explained my problem they gave me another number (with a different prefix but the same xxxx). (Perhaps the fact that it had something to do with money for them motivated the provision of this unlisted information.) John Bruner Center for Supercomputing R&D, University of Illinois bruner@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu (217) 244-4476
goldstein@delni.enet.dec.com (Fred R. Goldstein) (12/21/89)
In article <2288@accuvax.nwu.edu>, ceb@csli.stanford.edu (Charles Buckley) writes... > [Moderator's Note: I will only respond to (a): Yes there is 1-800-555-1212 > for obtaining listed 800 numbers. You can't call it or most 800 > numbers because the called party has not agreed to accept charges from > outside the United States (or Canada). PT] >But no-one's *asking* them to pay for the call - just accept it. The >restrictiveness of this practice boggles my mind, too. Do there exist >800 numbers you can call from abroad at all? I don't think so. Accepting a call on an 800 line is equivalent to paying for it. These lines may be billed on a minutes-of-use basis, without regard for the source of the call. So if you did know the underlying non-800 number, it would be billed as an 800 call anyway. There are indeed overseas 800 numbers, but they're typically in the national equivalent of 800 service. Thus you can get a line in the US that answers to a UK 0800 service, and pay an appropriate international rate for minutes of use (around $100/hr from Europe). Of course you need a separate number from each country. The SAC 800 we dial in the US doesn't map across the puddle. (Not that it couldn't be force-fitted, but the billing systems in Europe would see a call to +1, and bill for it, even though the recipient was also paying. Potential rathole noted.) fred
johnl@esegue.segue.boston.ma.us (John R. Levine) (12/21/89)
In article <2288@accuvax.nwu.edu> you write: >Do there exist 800 numbers you can call from abroad at all? Actually there are quite a lot of them, but the caller uses a number assigned in the country he's calling from. In the UK, for example, the numbers start with 0800, in France they start with 05 (and are called green numbers for some reason.) The same thing applies in reverse. There are a lot of 800 numbers you can call in the US that connect to people in other countries. Regards, John Levine, johnl@esegue.segue.boston.ma.us, {spdcc|ima|lotus}!esegue!johnl
dattier@chinet.chi.il.us (David Tamkin) (12/21/89)
John Stanley wrote in TELECOM Digest, Volume 9, Issue 581: | And what makes you think everyone with an 800 number WANTS people | outside NA calling them? If I had a small company struggling for | survival I certainly wouldn't want a bunch of overseas calls on top of | all the other expense and headache of overseas sales. The original question, as the title of the thread ("Finding Out the `Real' Number behind a 1-800 Number") indicated, was not why companies wouldn't accept reverse-charged international calls; the answer is fairly obvious, along the lines of Mr. Stanley's logic. The question was why some companies give out only their toll-free numbers and refuse to give out another number that an overseas caller can dial at the caller's own expense. David Tamkin P.O Box 813 Rosemont, Illinois 60018-0813 | BIX: dattier dattier@chinet.chi.il.us (708) 518-6769 (312) 693-0591 | GEnie: D.W.TAMKIN Everyone on Chinet has his or her own opinion about this.| CIS: 73720,1570
"Fred R. Goldstein dtn226-7388" <goldstein@delni.enet.dec.com> (12/21/89)
I think this needs clarification.
There are two types of 800 numbers. The old type used a dedicated
line, provided by the local telco under an AT&T contract. It could be
billed based on minutes of use, since ALL use was dialed to the 800
number. Nowadays, you can also get an 800 number pointed at a real
number, and it's billed from the source end (by the LD carrier
providing the 800 number) and not from the minutes of use at the
destination.
fredeli@pws.bull.com (12/21/89)
Fred Goldstein <goldstein@delni.enet.dec.com> writes: >Accepting a call on an 800 line is equivalent to paying for it. These >lines may be billed on a minutes-of-use basis, without regard for the >source of the call. So if you did know the underlying non-800 number, >it would be billed as an 800 call anyway. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding Fred's point, but I think that it is entirely incorrect. I can dial into my home phone number through either an 800 number, or the normal number. When someone dials my number directly (not 800), the call surely doesn't appear on my FONLINE 800 bill from US Sprint! { Steve Elias ; eli@spdcc.com ; 6179325598 ; 5086717556 ; } /* C */ { *disclaimer(); } /* not C */ { z = disclaimer(y) : (y = lim [x-->0] ( 1/x ) ) }
john@bovine.ati.com (John Higdon) (12/21/89)
"Fred R. Goldstein" <goldstein@delni.enet.dec.com> writes: > Accepting a call on an 800 line is equivalent to paying for it. These > lines may be billed on a minutes-of-use basis, without regard for the > source of the call. So if you did know the underlying non-800 number, > it would be billed as an 800 call anyway. Nope! There is no clock or counter on the POTS line associated with 800 service. Dialing into the number directly, without using the 800 alias would result in no 800 billing. 800 billing is done in two ways: in the originating CO, as part of the AMA system; or in the carrier's tandem switch. AT&T still uses, for the most part, originating CO billing as a carry-over from the old days, while other carriers do their own billing in their own switches. Remember, many companies now offer 800 service, and they have no access to any data relating to the incoming calls on the POTS number that didn't go through their system. Also, many 800 service plans (like the one I have) depend on where the call originates from. A call to the ordinary POTS number would just not register. John Higdon | P. O. Box 7648 | +1 408 723 1395 john@bovine.ati.com | San Jose, CA 95150 | M o o !
"Joel B. Levin" <levin@bbn.com> (12/21/89)
One more data point, from the pre-1984 period: We had an 800 number in a place I staffed occasionally, and at the time I knew the Cambridge ANI number (dial it and it "speaks" the number you are calling from). The 800 line had dial tone, so I tried ANI, of course, and I got a legitimate Cambridge number on a normal Cambridge exchange. But when I called that number from another line I got a "not in service" intercept. Also, I believe I was unable to make any real calls from the 800 line, getting either an intercept or reorder (though I could be wrong about this). /JBL bbn@levin.com | "There were sweetheart roses on Yancey Wilmerding's ...!bbn!levin | bureau that morning. Wide-eyed and distraught, she (617)873-3463 | stood with all her faculties rooted to the floor." [Moderator's Note: At a place where I worked in 1969, I had an incoming WATS line on my desk. One day I got five or six wrong numbers in a row, all from the same poor old woman who kept saying, "Hello! Hello?? Did I reach WEllington 5-6924? Hello!".... after a couple such calls, I then realized she was dialing that number, which was used to bring in our 800 number. Of course, she had a wrong number. PT]
Paul Guthrie <pdg@chinet.chi.il.us> (12/22/89)
In article <2317@accuvax.nwu.edu> goldstein@delni.enet.dec.com (Fred R. Goldstein) writes: >Accepting a call on an 800 line is equivalent to paying for it. These >lines may be billed on a minutes-of-use basis, without regard for the >source of the call. So if you did know the underlying non-800 number, >it would be billed as an 800 call anyway. Not true. Most billing is done on the originating end. If indeed you did call the underlying non-800 number you would get billed for this as a normal call, not as an 800 (toll free) call. However, the receiving party would *also* get billed, as (as you mentioned) 800's are billed on a usage basis. Paul Guthrie chinet!nsacray!paul
dattier@chinet.chi.il.us (David Tamkin) (12/23/89)
Various contributors have been saying yes, no, and sometimes to the comment that a call to the underlying local number behind an 800 number is still billed to the callee at 800 rates. (I know from personal experience that the answer is either "sometimes" or "no", for I worked somewhere where it wasn't.) If that is the reason that a company wouldn't want to give out the underlying phone number of its 800 indial, surely they have other incoming lines on which suppliers, local business contacts, and employees' families can call them without their paying to receive the calls. It's very poor business practice to tell a potential customer that they refuse to talk by telephone with people in his or her location and that he or she must deal with them through the mail. Perhaps the question to them should not be "What's the true local phone number underlying your inward WATS service?" but rather "If someone who wants to buy from you can't dial your 800 number where (s)he is, is there another number (s)he can call your company on at his/her own expense?" David Tamkin PO Box 813 Rosemont IL 60018-0813 (708)518-6769 (312)693-0591 dattier@chinet.chi.il.us BIX: dattier GEnie: D.W.TAMKIN CIS: 73720,1570