karl@mcs.mcs.com (Karl Denninger) (02/09/90)
We're in an interesting situation here. We'd love to buy a Panasonic Key-set system (6 line X 16 station). We can't find them. Why not? SOMEONE has managed to convince the Commerce Department that it would be a good idea to cause trouble for these people -- in the form of import restrictions. Needless to say, this has us horribly pissed off. The US-made gear is available, sure, but it's (1) inferior, and (2) a LOT more expensive. Who's behind this complaint? Is it AT&T? Does anyone know, factually, who started this nonsense? Whoever did this, they just lost all of our business (if we do any work with them now, or if we buy any of their goods/services). Why can't American companies decide to compete by providing a better product and service, instead of slapping input duties on things..... it's beyond me. Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 708 566-8911], Voice: [+1 708 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
John Higdon <john@bovine.ati.com> (02/09/90)
Karl Denninger <karl@mcs.mcs.com> writes: > Who's behind this complaint? Is it AT&T? Does anyone know, factually, > who started this nonsense? You bet it's AT&T. This was in the news a few months ago. There was quite a flame fest here in the Digest over it. Specifically, AT&T claims that the Panasonic 308, 616, and 1232 systems are being dumped here and asked for governmental relief, which was granted. They found it quite difficult to sell their grossly overpriced Merlins against those clever little hybrids. (I have a 1232 in my home -- it's great.) I pointed out in one article that the charge of dumping is laughable. The Panasonic systems were specifically designed and engineered for the US telecom market and are sold nowhere else in the world. They are not even sold in Japan. So how can they be dumping? If they are selling below cost, why would they bother? > Why can't American companies decide to compete by providing a better > product and service, instead of slapping input duties on things..... > it's beyond me. Watch the Digest; I'm sure AT&T employees will come out of the woodwork to tell us how the big bad Japanese are cheating against the poor downtrodden AT&T. John Higdon | P. O. Box 7648 | +1 408 723 1395 john@bovine.ati.com | San Jose, CA 95150 | M o o !
karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger) (02/12/90)
In article <3720@accuvax.nwu.edu> John Higdon <john@bovine.ati.com> writes: X-Telecom-Digest: Volume 10, Issue 90, message 1 of 9 >Karl Denninger <karl@mcs.mcs.com> writes: >> Who's behind this complaint? Is it AT&T? Does anyone know, factually, >> who started this nonsense? >You bet it's AT&T. This was in the news a few months ago. There was >quite a flame fest here in the Digest over it. Specifically, AT&T >claims that the Panasonic 308, 616, and 1232 systems are being dumped >here and asked for governmental relief, which was granted. They found >it quite difficult to sell their grossly overpriced Merlins against >those clever little hybrids. (I have a 1232 in my home -- it's great.) You're not kidding it's great. Even WITH the tarriffs, and the "relief", it's still the best system on the market for the money. Some items for the unknowing -- it works with standard phones (dial 9 to get outside access, other codes to do other things), so items like your standard fax machine work as an extension -- or with "custom" feature phones that have an alphanumeric display, key buttons, the works. It also is programmable from the "11" extension, individual stations have their own programming (which is both wild and pretty unique) -- with no hassles. You want auto-CO hunt? Dial a code on your extension -- you got it. You want forwarding, 4-zone paging (plus external), call pickup, executive override, music when your extension is idle, etc? Key a code, and it works. Toll restriction? It's in there (nice for an extension in your customer waiting area). Automatic night-line switching on time basis? It's in there. Call detail recording? Plug in a serial printer and turn it on. Every reasonable feature you could want is in there, ALL in the base unit. No extra costs -- full 6CO X 16Ext capability, music on hold, display phone features, "power failure" mode (so you don't end up with a completely dead system when the juice goes off), etc. If you want full functionality during power outages a $300 add-on box will provide that too -- for a full 4 hours. In fact, we haven't found a feature or item we >don't< like. And it worked right out of the box; use 4-wire RJ11 connections (2-wire for standard desk sets) and plug it in. The 1232 can even do the automated "call director" thing you hear with computerized voice announce and instructions at some companies -- on two channels! (This does require an extra module or two :-) And the 1232 is about half the cost of most "comparable" systems; same goes for the 616. The "proprietary" phones are nice and solid, have an excellent speakerphone (one of the very few speakerphones I consider usable), and are well-designed from a human-engineering point of view. Fantastic gear. Not a single complaint at our office. >The Panasonic systems were specifically designed and engineered for >the US telecom market and are sold nowhere else in the world. They are >not even sold in Japan. So how can they be dumping? If they are >selling below cost, why would they bother? No kidding. The idea that these systems could be dumped is laughable, given that they aren't sold anywhere else! I'd like to know how the Commerce Department came to that conclusion; did they use "cost of Merlin production" or some such to justify the tarriffs? Our Commerce Department would be funny if it wasn't for their playing patsy to American Industry and sinking it at the same time. >> Why can't American companies decide to compete by providing a better >> product and service, instead of slapping input duties on things..... >> it's beyond me. >Watch the Digest; I'm sure AT&T employees will come out of the >woodwork to tell us how the big bad Japanese are cheating against the >poor downtrodden AT&T. AT&T, or any other American Company, should be able to produce a superior product at a reasonable price. They haven't done so -- we looked at the Merlin systems, and the Southwestern Bell. The SWB system was cheesy, and nickled and dimed you to death (not to mention having a number of features you couldn't disable; cut off callers in 4 minutes on hold? Bah!). The Merlin was outrageously priced and had all these "options" (extra cost, of course). Siemens and Lanier? More of the same. Overpriced and unable to do things the Panasonic system can, at least at a reasonable cost. So, the 616 is not all digital (voice path is analog). BIG DEAL! It's a better mousetrap (just try to implement power-failure bypass in a full digital system). For AT&T (or anyone else out there with a full digital system) to complain that the hybrids are being "dumped" on that basis is way out of line -- the technology and construction aren't even the same! Ok, I can't pass raw data through it. But I CAN put a standard modem on any extension, or a fax, or an answering machine (nice for evening answering). All with no "extra costs". Plug and play is the name of the game, and play it does. We paid a good amount under $2,000 for our system with 4 proprietary extensions. We have connected at the moment those 4 plus 2 standard devices. It all works great; no complaints. The 308 (3 CO lines, 8 extension) system is quite a bit cheaper; it's inexpensive enough that it makes sense even in some homes! Folks, I remember when "Made in Japan" was synonymous with cheap junk. It wasn't very long ago. Now "Made in Japan" is a mark of quality; a highly respected mark indeed. It's "Made in the USA" that now gets the "trashy" label, and that really is too bad. "Protection" from imaginary evils, or from honest competition won't change this. Only the hard realities of the marketplace will -- if consumers refuse to deal with firms that engage in these practices. Americans have two choices. We can either allow this kind of crap to go on, and pander to the American companies, or we can say "build it better and cheaper or die as you deserve to". The choice is ours. The first option will lead to financial ruin for America in the end; remember, the European Common Market opens up in just a couple of years, and when it does it will dwarf us here! THOSE countries won't be terribly interested in our idea of protectionism, especially when it means that our market is effectively closed to their products. They'll retaliate, that is certain, and in the end we will lose. American industry must compete, not legislate, for in legislating we lose in the long term. We at MCS have spoken with our wallets, to the point that we're going to sell the Panasonic systems. We like it that much. If you want one call me; we'll be happy to take care of you. The American companies? Build a better, less expensive mousetrap. THEN we'll be interested. Legislating away your competition doesn't make us happy at all, and will only hurt all of us in the long run. Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl) Public Access Data Line: [+1 708 566-8911], Voice: [+1 708 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality Solutions at a Fair Price"
clements@bbn.com (02/20/90)
Another point on the Panasonic KX-T61610 phone system. It appears that they do significant redesigns frequently, presumably for cost savings. I just got back from vacation and found the Technical/Service manuals for the KX-T61610 waiting for me in the pile of mail. (Thanks to those who gave me pointers to order it. The price was a mere $7 + tax + S/H.) The manual describes what must be an earlier version of the unit. No, not the 616, but an earlier KX-T61610 than the one I have. The manual describes a unit with an additional CPU in it which handles a pair of custom chips that talk to the smart phone sets for the lights/LCDs/buttons. Adding that CPU required an additional UART and BRG on the master CPU to talk to both the slave CPU and the SMDR port. My unit has moved that logic into the main CPU, saving a custom 8048-class chip, an 8251 and an 8254. Also, the unit in the manual has two 32K-byte ROMs where mine has one 64K-byte ROM and no second socket. And the I/O address assignments have been shuffled around to make more RAM space available. (Determined by looking at the firmware.) No need to go on about this in any more detail. I bring it up because I was surprised to see such a significant change in what was a pretty new unit. The KX-T61610 replaced the 616 fairly recently and yet here's a new rev already. (I got my unit in December.) And to add to Karl D's comments about hooking up extensions around the house: My two Unix-PCs and my 386 each have their own extension. They talk to each other directly without having to dial "9". The analog crossbar does fine with Trailblazers, both to other extensions and to the outside. [Yes, it does sound like I've gone a little overboard, doesn't it? But it's fun.] Bob Clements, K1BC, clements@bbn.com
jimmy@icjapan.info.com (Jim Gottlieb) (02/22/90)
In article <4043@accuvax.nwu.edu> John Higdon <john@bovine.ati.com> writes: >Oh, and another thing. US companies having a hard time selling things >in Japan has less to do with the Japanese government regulations and >more to do with not making anything the Japanese consumer wants to buy >than you may realize. Where, for instance, Matsushita carefully sized >up the North American market when designing the KX-T series equipment, >most US firms put no effort into analyzing the Japanese market for >their goods. "Hey, if it's good enough for Americans...." Seeing Japanese key systems in the U.S., one might assume that they just send us the same models they sell at home (except for the KX people who are not allowed to sell at home). But after spending the last six months here in the telecom industry and using phones quite often, I see that this is clearly not the case. Most of the systems shipped to the U.S. are quite different from what is sold here at home. Following are the differences I have noticed: Key telephone sets in Japan allow the user to adjust the receive volume. This is actually quite handy when talking in very crowded, very noisy Japanese offices. This is done without raising sidetone volume. I have never seen a key system here with voice announce or paging capabilities. Again, this is probably due to the fact that a typical one-person office in the U.S. would have up to ten people in it here. The systems they export allow the connection of an external music-on-hold source. All systems here have IC-generated "Greensleeves" or "Home On The Range" with no ability to change this. Similarly, key system sets can be programmed to play melodies (again, public-domain ones) when the phone rings. Interestingly, the original KX-T616 came with Greensleeves, but also allowed one to substitute an external source. The MOH chip was eliminated in the 61610 upgrade. I have not yet seen a system here that will let the user generate touch-tones of user-desired length. Key systems here do not allow the user to conference two outside lines. And until very recently, they did not include the ability to flash the outside trunks. Domestic-use systems look for a reversal on outside trunks to indicate supervision. This then starts a timer on the display. Many systems can also be equipped with a rate chip, which allows the cost of the current call to be displayed. There is far too much use of pulse dialing on outside trunks due to NTT's ripoff touch-tone charges. Therefore, many people still use pulse and Japanese key systems reflect this in their ability to switch between 10 or 20 pulses-per-second. Most single-line sets here have a button one pushes to switch to tone-dialing in the middle of a call so that it is easy to dial out with pulse and then enter tones to an interactive service. The tone plant is different. In Japan, 400Hz tones are used for dial tone, busy, and ringing. Many internal dial tones here sound like a "reorder" (120ipm) to me. Here one dials "0" to access an outside line. The systems they ship to the U.S. use "9". On the other hand, the building we rent space in has shared-tenant service served off of a Mitsubishi Melstar, aka IBM ROLM 9751. The only changes they made for this market were the tone plant and dial "0" for outside. The sets are the same ones they use in the U.S. and have not been adapted at all to the Japanese market. They _do_ have a volume control for instance, but raising the receive volume also boosts the sidetone making it useless in a noisy room. The sets are the usual lousy-in-any-country ROLMphones. I _HATE_ them. I am embarrassed that we ship them such a monster. But that's another story. Or is it? Jim Gottlieb Info Connections, Tokyo, Japan _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ <jimmy@pic.ucla.edu> or <jimmy@denwa.info.com> or <attmail!denwa!jimmy> Fax: (011)+81-3-237-5867 Voice Mail: (011)+81-3-222-8429