mo@seismo.UUCP (Mike O'Dell) (11/10/83)
I certainly cannot claim any level of non-bias, in fact would not even if I could. I suggest that AT&T would not even be in the Unix business in any serious way if it weren't for the people at Berkeley and Purdue ECN and Toronto and Rand and all the other folks who have been committed long before it was "fashionable." I will go even further. I suggest that AT&T owes an irrepayable debt to the US Computer Science Departments for (1) training a generation of software engineers who can use and support what AT&T is now selling, and (2) for creating a pool of users who demand that same product. I am strongly against the divisiveness in the Unix community, and wish the scism could be be healed in some productive way. But there are lots of us Ol' Timers who bristle when we read AT&T advertising copy which derides all the difficult, ground-breaking work which has gone before. 4 years ago I was running an 11/70 version 6 system from George Goble at Purdue ECN which had *ALL* the System V performance hacks, except the 1K filesystem, and some System V still doesn't have. That system routinely supported 50-60 users. I am glad to see AT&T is finally deciding to take advantage of what has gone before. Callin' 'em as he sees 'em, -Michael D. O'Dell
fair@dual.UUCP (Erik E. Fair) (11/18/83)
Mike O'Dell has expressed my feelings on the subject quite well...
Erik E. Fair {ucbvax,amd70,zehntel,unisoft}!dual!fair
Dual Systems Corporation, Berkeley, Californianotes@ucbcad.UUCP (11/23/83)
#R:seismo:-40200:ucbesvax:16700004:000:1872
ucbesvax!turner Nov 15 21:12:00 1983
Re: Mike O'Dell's "Berkeley Flame and AT&T"
/***** ucbesvax:net.unix-wizards / seismo!mo / 4:59 am Nov 15, 1983*/
I suggest that AT&T owes an irrepayable debt to the US Computer
Science Departments for (1) training a generation of software
engineers who can use and support what AT&T is now selling,
and (2) for creating a pool of users who demand that same product.
Not that I disagree with the substance of O'Dell's other comments, but I
think it's worth pointing out that here at Berkeley there was (and is still?)
a long-standing program of support from Bell Labs for talented students to
study at Berkeley. The department here was especially encouraged to take on
these students (who are under the gun to crank out a Master's degree in
about 1 year) by BTL's practice of not only supporting the student, but by
providing an *additional* cash outlay to the department, in recognition of
the obvious fact that students are consumers of department resources. This
program has been applied elsewhere, needless to say.
So, to me, there is no question of the debt being "irrepayable"--there is
even some question as to whether there is any "debt" at all! As for
"creating a pool of users", I think that between the academic discount on
UNIX, and the subsidies for students (many of whom did work on UNIX, and/or
brought their UNIX expertise *from* Bell), that AT&T payed quite a pretty
penny to produce this initial "pool"--though it will probably be seen as
one of their more auspicious investments. I don't know if this was all
intricately calculated, and, if so, by whom, but it certainly seems to have
worked out well enough for AT&T. Call it shrewdness, but don't go around
trumpeting about how CS departments have been ripped off. For many of them,
the situation has been quite the reverse.
---
Michael Turner (ucbvax!ucbesvax.turner)notes@ucbcad.UUCP (11/23/83)
#R:seismo:-40200:ucbcad:21300004:000:472 ucbcad!kalash Nov 16 09:49:00 1983 Not that I disagree with the substance of O'Dell's other comments, but I think it's worth pointing out that here at Berkeley there was (and is still?) a long-standing program of support from Bell Labs for talented students to study at Berkeley. For what it is worth, that program is now suspended. Since the AT&T breakup, Bell Labs isn't sure how/what will be paying for the program (that is at least the reason I have been given). Joe Kalash kalash@berkeley