monty@sunne.east.sun.com (Monty Solomon - Temp Consultant) (09/19/90)
[Moderator's Note: Mr. Solomon kindly passed along this message which appeared recently in misc.consumers. PAT] From: miller@mali (Ross M. Miller) Newsgroups: misc.consumers Subject: AT&T Universal Card is not two cards in one Date: 17 Sep 90 21:19:57 GMT Reply-To: millerrm@crd.ge.com (Ross M. Miller) Organization: General Electric R&D Center In case any of you are under the impression (created by AT&T) that the AT&T Universal Card is both a bankcard and AT&T Credit/Calling Card in one, I have an interesting story for you. On a recent trip, I tried to use my new Universal Card in an AT&T credit card payphone by inserting it into the credit card slot. The payphone immediately rejected it as not being an AT&T credit card. Upon returning from my trip I calling AT&T and asked why the card would not work in their payphone and learned an interesting fact about the AT&T Universal Card. The fact: The AT&T Universal Card is simply a bankcard (VISA or Mastercard) with an AT&T credit card number embossed onto it. The magnetic stripe on the back of the card indicates that the card is only a bankcard and contains no information about the AT&T credit card. Hence, when run though a payphone (or any other device that reads the stripe), it is treated as a bankcard. This "feature" has two "gotchas": 1. As noted, standard AT&T credit card payphones will not read it. To charge calls you need to enter your credit card number manually. 2. In payphones that accept multiple types of cards, the card is treated as a bankcard, not an AT&T credit card. According to what AT&T told me this means that the 10% discount DOES NOT APPLY to calls made in this manner. Apparently, modern credit card technology cannot yet deal with magnetic stripes that contain "dual" identities, and so, some of the potential convenience of a combined bankcard/phonecard is, for now, lost. Ross Miller GE R&D Center millerrm@crd.ge.com
chris@uunet.uu.net (Chris Johnson) (09/25/90)
In article <12368@accuvax.nwu.edu> monty@sunne.east.sun.com (Monty Solomon - Temp Consultant) writes: >The fact: The AT&T Universal Card is simply a bankcard (VISA or >Mastercard) with an AT&T credit card number embossed onto it. The >magnetic stripe on the back of the card indicates that the card is >only a bankcard and contains no information about the AT&T credit >card. Hence, when run though a payphone (or any other device that >reads the stripe), it is treated as a bankcard. >Apparently, modern credit card technology cannot yet deal with >magnetic stripes that contain "dual" identities, and so, some of the >potential convenience of a combined bankcard/phonecard is, for now, >lost. Well, that seems like an awfully easy thing to rectify with no new technology whatsoever: just put two magnetic stripes on the back of the card, one with the bankcard data and one with the phonecard data. Then in all those glossy brochures they send to holders of the Universal Card (like me), they need only instruct the users to insert the card one way to use the VISA/MC capabilities, and the other way to use the AT&T phone card capabilities. I'm amazed that this incredibly simple and inexpensive solution escaped the designers of the card. Is there some other reason they didn't make the card completely dual purpose, I wonder? Does the ordinary AT&T phonecard give you a 10% discount on calls? ...Chris Johnson chris@c2s.mn.org ..uunet!bungia!com50!chris Com Squared Systems, Inc. St. Paul, MN USA +1 612 452 9522
matt_mcgehrin@pro-graphics.cts.com (Matthew McGehrin) (09/25/90)
Another thought came to mind about the 'AT&T Universal Card': Just
think, if you use the 'card' to charge purchases, your 'phone number
with four-digit code', along with the 'ATT Credit card number' goes on
the same slip (since its one huge carbon) ... Reach Out and Touch
someone's life, since you have their credit card number, (their bank
since ATT uses only one bank), their phone number with a 'universal'
calling card ... not bad huh??
matt
Arpa / DDN : pro-graphics!matt_mcgehrin@nosc.mil
UUCP : crash!pro-graphics!matt_mcgehrin
Internet : matt_mcgehrin@pro-graphics.ctc.com
From : (908) 469-0049, Free Access, 24 hours a day
300/1200/2400 baud, 'Pro-Graphics'lemke@apple.com (Steve Lemke) (09/27/90)
matt_mcgehrin@pro-graphics.cts.com (Matthew McGehrin) writes: >Another thought came to mind about the 'AT&T Universal Card': Just >think, if you use the 'card' to charge purchases, your 'phone number >with four-digit code', along with the 'ATT Credit card number' goes on ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >the same slip (since its one huge carbon) ... Reach Out and Touch >someone's life, since you have their credit card number, (their bank >since ATT uses only one bank), their phone number with a 'universal' >calling card ... not bad huh?? Perhaps someone has already corrected you on this, but in case not: My AT&T MasterCard contains a MasterCard number, and an AT&T Long Distance Calling Card number, but the four digit PIN is _NOT_ there. In addition, as has been previously discussed (I think), the AT&T LD # is NOT my home phone number. It is a completely different ten-digit number. However, I _do_ agree with another poster who mentioned that if you stick this card into a card reader, it looks like an ordinary MasterCard. I found this out when I stuck it into a GTE Airphone which was supposed to recognize AT&T Calling Cards. The bill for the phone call came through on my AT&T Monthly statement, but it appeared under the MasterCard section, rather than the long distance calling section, meaning I did NOT get my 10% discount on the call. It was instead treated like any other credit purchase. (On the other hand, it therefore fell into the category of things that is NOT required to be paid off every month, but instead could be rolled over. However, the entire bill was so small that I paid the whole thing at once anyway.) Steve Lemke, Engineering Quality Assurance, Radius Inc., San Jose Reply to: lemke@radius.com (Note: NEW domain-style address!!)
ekrell@ulysses.att.com (09/27/90)
>Another thought came to mind about the 'AT&T Universal Card': Just >think, if you use the 'card' to charge purchases, your 'phone number >with four-digit code', along with the 'ATT Credit card number' goes on >the same slip (since its one huge carbon) ... What do you mean by this?. The number on the Universal Card is not your phone number and is missing the four-digit PIN. They would still have to guess your PIN. How different is this from the current system that uses your home phone number (which I can get from the phone book or directory service)? Eduardo Krell AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill, NJ UUCP: {att,decvax,ucbvax}!ulysses!ekrell Internet: ekrell@ulysses.att.com
jimb@silvlis.com (Jim Budler) (09/27/90)
In article <12594@accuvax.nwu.edu> matt_mcgehrin@pro-graphics.cts.com (Matthew McGehrin) writes: >Another thought came to mind about the 'AT&T Universal Card': Just >think, if you use the 'card' to charge purchases, your 'phone number >with four-digit code', along with the 'ATT Credit card number' goes on >the same slip (since its one huge carbon) Nope. The calling card number bears no relation to my phone number, and the PIN portion is not embossed on the card. It arrives by seperate post after the card arrives. While a binary search of the 10,000 possibilities is not an impossibility, I would hope the security system would invalidate any calling card number if sufficient probes against it occured. With any credit card the issuing bank information is contained within the credit card number. So what? It isn't the bank where I have any of my other accounts. This statement is true both of the AT&T Universal card I hold, and of the Visa card I acquired from the same bank at which I *do* have my checking and savings account. This is because although my bank accepted my Visa application, the card itself was issued by a regional clearing house. Jim Budler jimb@silvlis.com +1.408.991.6115 Silvar-Lisco, Inc. 703 E. Evelyn Ave. Sunnyvale, Ca. 94086
rnewman@uunet.uu.net (Ron Newman) (09/27/90)
From article <12594@accuvax.nwu.edu>, by matt_mcgehrin@pro-graphics .cts.com (Matthew McGehrin): [Moderator's Note: Matt's quote eliminated to save space. Read it in prior messages if necessary. PAT] An AT&T Universal card does NOT have a real phone number embossed on it. Instead, it has a 10-digit made-up 'Calling Card number' that is not a phone number and does NOT have the four-digit code at the end of it. (My card has 508-096-xxxx which is unlikely to ever become a real phone number.) The user of the AT&T Universal card must remember the four-digit code him/herself. Ron Newman
dave@westmark.westmark.com (Dave Levenson) (09/27/90)
In article <12593@accuvax.nwu.edu>, plains!com50.c2s.mn.org! chris@uunet.uu.net (Chris Johnson) writes: > In article <12368@accuvax.nwu.edu> monty@sunne.east.sun.com (Monty > Solomon - Temp Consultant) writes: > >The fact: The AT&T Universal Card is simply a bankcard (VISA or > >Mastercard) with an AT&T credit card number embossed onto it. The > Well, that seems like an awfully easy thing to rectify with no new > technology whatsoever: just put two magnetic stripes on the back of > the card, one with the bankcard data and one with the phonecard data. > Then in all those glossy brochures they send to holders of the > Universal Card (like me), they need only instruct the users to insert > the card one way to use the VISA/MC capabilities, and the other way to > use the AT&T phone card capabilities. The AT&T card-caller public phones around here are not like those where you can insert the card two different ways. They have a slot into which you insert the card, more like an ATM, except that it doesn't have the capability that ATM's have of keeping the card once you've inserted it. The phones with the less expensive readers where the user sweeps the card through a stationary reader on the phone might be able to use the design proposed by Chris, but how many 'card-carrying members' of the public would understand such instructions? Dave Levenson Internet: dave@westmark.com Westmark, Inc. UUCP: {uunet | rutgers | att}!westmark!dave Warren, NJ, USA AT&T Mail: !westmark!dave [The Man in the Mooney] Voice: 908 647 0900 Fax: 908 647 6857
dave@westmark.westmark.com (Dave Levenson) (09/27/90)
In article <12594@accuvax.nwu.edu>, matt_mcgehrin@pro-graphics.cts.com (Matthew McGehrin) writes: > Another thought came to mind about the 'AT&T Universal Card': Just > think, if you use the 'card' to charge purchases, your 'phone number > with four-digit code', along with the 'ATT Credit card number' goes on > the same slip (since its one huge carbon) ... Reach Out and Touch > someone's life, since you have their credit card number, (their bank > since ATT uses only one bank), their phone number with a 'universal' > calling card ... not bad huh?? The PIN is not embossed, or even printed, on the AT&T universal card. It is mailed in a separate envelope, a week or so after the card is mailed, to the account holder. Apparently, Matthew, somebody thought of that! Dave Levenson Internet: dave@westmark.com Westmark, Inc. UUCP: {uunet | rutgers | att}!westmark!dave Warren, NJ, USA AT&T Mail: !westmark!dave Voice: 908 647 0900 Fax: 908 647 6857
elm@allspice.Berkeley.EDU (ethan miller) (09/27/90)
Two comments about the AT&T Universal Card:
First, there isn't enough room for two stripes on the back of the
card. There's got to be enough space to sign the card as well. Even
if there were room, what happens when someone comes up to a credit
card/phone card telephone in an airport and swipes the card the wrong
way? They'll be charged the credit card rates, not the AT&T phonecard
rates. It's easier just to type in the calling card number.
To the person afraid of calling card numbers on carbons, don't worry.
The front of the card has only the equivalent of the phone number
portion of the calling card number -- the four digit security code
isn't there. Incidentally, the number I have is an illegal phone
number, though the area code is valid. The exchange number starts
with a 0, however, so the number is (under the current system) a
disallowed phone number. Is there any system AT&T is using to assign
these "phony" calling card phone numbers?
ethan miller--cs grad student elm@sprite.berkeley.edu
#include <std/disclaimer.h> {...}!ucbvax!sprite!elmdplatt@coherent.com (09/28/90)
In article <12594@accuvax.nwu.edu> Matt McGehrin writes: > Another thought came to mind about the 'AT&T Universal Card': Just > think, if you use the 'card' to charge purchases, your 'phone number > with four-digit code', along with the 'ATT Credit card number' goes on > the same slip (since its one huge carbon) ... Reach Out and Touch > someone's life, since you have their credit card number, (their bank > since ATT uses only one bank), their phone number with a 'universal' > calling card ... not bad huh?? Nope. They aren't stupid enough to do it that way. The four-digit PIN is not included on the card. It'd better not be... the same PIN is used both for the phonecard authorization, and as the auto-teller-machine PIN which enables you to get a cash advance against your card. There's no way AT&T would put it on the card ... if they did, they'd almost certainly end up being held liable for any cash withdrawls made via a card that was reported stolen. They send you the PIN under separate cover, and warn you not to write it down on the card or keep it in your wallet. Nor is your [home or business] phone number included on the card. The phonecard number is a made-up number which isn't in the correct format for a real phone number (mine starts out 507 00x, and there are no 00x phone exchanges to the best of my knowledge). I understand that this is done deliberately, to ensure that AT&T is the only carrier which will honor the number (this is a feature, not a bug). In these respects, the Universal Card is slightly more secure than, say, a Pacific Bell or MCI calling card, both of which have the real phone number _and_ the PIN embossed on the card. For the benefit of those with short memories, I suppose. Dave Platt VOICE: (415) 493-8805 UUCP: ...!{ames,apple,uunet}!coherent!dplatt DOMAIN: dplatt@coherent.com INTERNET: coherent!dplatt@ames.arpa, ...@uunet.uu.net USNAIL: Coherent Thought Inc. 3350 West Bayshore #205 Palo Alto CA 94303
JMS@mis.Arizona.EDU (09/28/90)
In article <12654@accuvax.nwu.edu>, lotus!rnewman@uunet.uu.net (Ron Newman) writes... >An AT&T Universal card does NOT have a real phone number embossed on >it. Not only that, it CANNOT have a real phone number on it. When I applied for the card, I asked if I could have my home phone number on it (since my interest in memorizing yet another ten digit number waned years ago), and was told "yes." After getting the card, I called in (as instructed) to change my "calling card code," and found that I could not. The excuse was lame: how will we be able to tell your calls apart (duh, how do you tell them apart NOW, jerkos?), but I was firmly assured in useless doublespeak that what I wanted was not possible. And while I kept the card, my few days of joy at the wonder of not having to memorize another calling card number ended RATHER abruptly. Also: someone asked about getting card encoders/decoders. They're easy to get; one source for us (here at Arizona) is the company we buy our mag-stripe door openers from, Elko in Chicago somewhere. They're expensive, about $1000, but if you want one... Joel M Snyder, The Mosaic Group, 627 E Speedway, 85705 Phone: 602.626.8680 (University of Arizona, Dep't of MIS, Eller Graduate School of Management) BITNET: jms@arizmis Internet: jms@mis.arizona.edu SPAN: 47541::uamis::jms
peter@ficc.ferranti.com (Peter da Silva) (09/28/90)
In article <12594@accuvax.nwu.edu> matt_mcgehrin@pro-graphics.cts.com (Matthew McGehrin) writes: > if you use the 'card' to charge purchases, your 'phone number > with four-digit code', along with the 'ATT Credit card number' goes on > the same slip... I don't know about you, but my AT&T card doesn't have a phone number on it. And they couldn't put two mag stripes (to address another message) because there's imprinting where the second stripe would have to go on all credit cards (bad design decision, I'd say). Peter da Silva +1 713 274 5180 peter@ferranti.com
chk@alias.uucp (C. Harald Koch) (09/28/90)
In article <12368@accuvax.nwu.edu> monty@sunne.east.sun.com (Monty Solomon - Temp Consultant) writes: > Well, that seems like an awfully easy thing to rectify with no new > technology whatsoever: just put two magnetic stripes on the back of > the card, one with the bankcard data and one with the phonecard data. There is an ANSI standard describing the magnetic stripe on the back of the card. I dont have it in front of me, but from what I remember: The stripe contains four tracks. The first three are the same, while the fourth is a larger, 'high-density' track. The third track is used by financial institutions for encoding Visa and Mastercard, bank cards, etc, and there is an ANSI standard describing this track separately. It seems to me, therefore, that the easiest solution (and the one that should have been used in the first place) is to put the Calling Card information on one of the other tracks. Then there is no ambiguity; the card is both optically and magnetically a credit card and a phone card. But of course, they never asked me... :-) C. Harald Koch VE3TLA Alias Research, Inc., Toronto ON Canada chk%alias@csri.utoronto.ca chk@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu chk@chk.mef.org
res@cblpe.att.com (Robert E Stampfli) (09/29/90)
> (On the other hand, it therefore fell into the category of things > that is NOT required to be paid off every month, but instead could > be rolled over. However, the entire bill was so small that I paid > the whole thing at once anyway.) Does anyone know a reason why I can't use one of those "checks" I got with the card to pay off the phone bill or minimum balance? Rob Stampfli / att.com!stampfli (uucp@work) / kd8wk@w8cqk (packet radio) 614-864-9377 / osu-cis.cis.ohio-state.edu!kd8wk!res (uucp@home) [Moderator's Note: Using 'one of those checks you got with the card' would of course merely roll the balance, not pay it off ... and I think if you read the fine print you will see they do not accept those "checks" to pay their own bill. Try sending them one in the remittance envelope and see what happens. You will probably get a snotty letter back and have your account sent to Collections.
steve@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Steve Schallehn) (09/30/90)
chk@alias.uucp (C. Harald Koch) writes: >There is an ANSI standard describing the magnetic stripe on the back >of the card. I dont have it in front of me, but from what I remember: Where would I be able easily find such ANSI standards? I am more curious than anything. Steve Schallehn Kansas State University
U5434122@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (10/02/90)
In article <12651@accuvax.nwu.edu>, radius!lemke@apple.com (Steve Lemke) writes: > My AT&T MasterCard contains a MasterCard number, and an AT&T Long > Distance Calling Card number, but the four digit PIN is _NOT_ there. > In addition, as has been previously discussed (I think), the AT&T LD # > is NOT my home phone number. It is a completely different ten-digit > number. To avoid obtaining *more* long numbers, would it not be possible to register one's Mastercard 16 digit number with AT&T or whoever, and let them send you a special AT&T PIN for using that card with AT&T. Only one number on the card; only one stripe necessary. If AT&T 1were co-ordinated with the bank, you could even have just one PIN. Danny [Moderator's Note: This of course is the technique used by MCI, in effect making any existing VISA/MC into an extension of the MCI calling card. AT&T was different though -- they definitly wanted to expand out of the phone business and into the credit card business, which is why they chose to issue their own plastic. PAT]
andyr@inmos.com (Andy Rabagliati) (10/02/90)
In article <12861@accuvax.nwu.edu> U5434122@ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au writes: >would it not be possible to >register one's Mastercard 16 digit number with AT&T or whoever, and >let them send you a special AT&T PIN for using that card with AT&T. When I asked for my PIN, I asked for 1XXX, and it was refused. I asked why - I was told that if it starts with a 1 it looks like the start of 1-NPA-NXX-XXXX. So I couldn't make it the same as my bank PIN. Cheers, Andy. EMAIL: rabagliatia@isnet.inmos.COM
rees@pisa.ifs.umich.edu (Jim Rees) (10/03/90)
In article <12758@accuvax.nwu.edu>, "C. Harald Koch" <chk@alias.uucp> writes: >In article <12368@accuvax.nwu.edu> monty@sunne.east.sun.com (Monty >Solomon - Temp Consultant) writes: >> Well, that seems like an awfully easy thing to rectify with no new >> technology whatsoever: just put two magnetic stripes on the back of >> the card, one with the bankcard data and one with the phonecard data. It seems to me, therefore, that the easiest solution (and the one that should have been used in the first place) is to put the Calling Card information on one of the other tracks. Then there is no ambiguity; the card is both optically and magnetically a credit card and a phone card. Another problem with the two-stripe solution is that the second stripe would fall in the same area as the embossing. Here is the ANSI standard, in case anyone is interested. This info is a little (ten years or so!) out of date. --------------- From: lauren@vortex.UUCP (Lauren Weinstein) Newsgroups: net.misc Subject: Banking Card Data Formats Date: Mon, 10-Oct-83 21:20:51 EDT Organization: Vortex Technology, Los Angeles Sometime ago, there was a request for information regarding the data format of the magstripes on banking cards. At the time, I was unable to find an old message of mine that I sent to Arpa sometime back which contained that information. However, I was finally able to locate the original message, and I have extracted the information requested... AUTOMATIC TRANSACTION MAGNETIC STRIPE FORMAT -------------------------------------------- ANSI X4.16 (1976) ISO 3554 ------------------------------------------------- <-- top edge of card .223" ------------------------------------------------- <----- TRACK 1 IATA .110" | ------------------------------------------------- | TRACK 2 ABA .110" mag stripe ------------------------------------------------- | TRACK 3 THRIFT .110" | ------------------------------------------------- <----- TRACK 1: developed by the International Air Transportation Assoc. (IATA), contains alphanumeric info for automation of airline ticketing or other reservation database applications. TRACK 2: developed by the American Bankers Assoc. (ABA), contains numeric info for automation of financial transactions. This track is also used by most systems which require an identification number and a minimum of other control info. TRACK 3: developed by the Thrift Industry, contains info, some of which is intended to be changed (re-recorded) with each transaction, e.g. cash dispensers which can operate "offline". density in bits char length in bits info content per inch including parity bit --------------- -------------------- ------------ TRACK 1: 210 7 79 alphanumeric chars TRACK 2: 75 5 40 numeric chars TRACK 3: 210 5 107 numeric chars Information is read right to left beginning with the Start Sentinel (SS) character located at the right edge of the card. TRACK 1: LRC | ES | DISCRETIONARY DATA | FS | NAME (26 char max.) | SS (coded char set: 6 bit subset of ASCII plus parity) TRACK 2: LRC | ES | DISCRETIONARY DATA | FS | ACCOUNT NUMBER | SS (coded char set: BCD 4 bit subset plus parity) TRACK3: LRC | ES | DISCRET. DATA | AS | USE AND SECURITY DATA | FS | ACCOUNT # | SS (coded char set: BCD 4 bit subset plus parity) SS Start Sentinel FS Field Separator AS Account Separator ES End Sentinel LRC Longitudinal Redundancy Check For error detection an odd parity bit is included in each character and a longitudinal redundancy check (LRC) character is encoded after the End Sentinel (ES). --Lauren--