[net.news.group] Job Opening

tlr@umcp-cs.UUCP (Terry L. Ridder) (01/02/86)

In response to the referenced posting, I am asking that the net
be polled as to whether postings of this nature should be allowed
to continue.

The poster of the article is using the net for a *FREE* ride which
it is not. Why should Companys, Universities, and private individuals
pay for MDEE's advertising cost. The net is not *FREE* it does cost
money to keep it running.

The net needs to decide this with the fastest possible speed, for if
we do not the net will be flooded with every possible item for sale.
There is a big difference between an individual posting an article
to na.forsale and selling that item; and what MDEE is doing with her
postings.

If the net cannot decide on this issue, I call for a poll to rmgroup
net.jobs and create mod.jobs. I ask that while the net is deciding the
issue that a cancel message be sent out on the referenced article and
MDEE be informed that all further postings from her will not be
forwarded.

Signed
Terry L. Ridder
-- 
Terry L. Ridder
14728 4th St. #301
Laurel, Maryland 20707
UUCP: seismo!mimsy.umd.edu!tlr OR seismo!neurad!terry
UUCP: seismo!mcvax!iiasavax!tlr
UUCP: seismo!(mimsy.umd.edu|neurad)!bilbo!(root|tlr)
ARPA: tlr@maryland
PHONE: 301-490-2248 (home)

avolio@decuac.UUCP (Frederick M. Avolio) (01/02/86)

In article <2673@umcp-cs.UUCP>, tlr@umcp-cs.UUCP (Terry L. Ridder) writes:
> The poster of the article is using the net for a *FREE* ride which
> it is not. Why should Companys, Universities, and private individuals
> pay for MDEE's advertising cost....
> 
> The net needs to decide this with the fastest possible speed, for if
> we do not the net will be flooded with every possible item for sale.
> There is a big difference between an individual posting an article
> to na.forsale and selling that item; and what MDEE is doing with her
> postings.

Sheesh.  What's the big difference? "Why should Companys, Universities,
and private individuals pay for" *anyone's* "advertising cost?" Why should
they pay for reviews about books or movies?  Please understand, I am not
saying that they *shouldn't*.  But any mention on the net of job
availability falls into this category then doesn't it?  And when someone
is looking for a job and posts a resume which is read by a company who
hires him or her didn't both benefit from the *FREE* ride?

In any event, look again.  The net already *is* flooded with every
possible item for sale.  And these "ads" are often sent with the widest
possible distribution.  (It will be a while before the NJ Dinette Set
will be forgotten, no?)

> If the net cannot decide on this issue, I call for a poll to rmgroup
> net.jobs and create mod.jobs.

You are volunteering to moderate?  What will be your criteria for
an allowable posting?  (I'm not sure you'd make a good moderator.
You're too testy :-).)
-- 
Fred @ DEC Ultrix Applications Center    {decvax,seismo,cbosgd}!decuac!avolio

abh6509@ritcv.UUCP (A. Hudson) (01/03/86)

Some people in universities ARE looking for Jobs. 100% of every graduating
class is a reasonable estimate, myself included. Any source of
jobs should be allowed to post as far as I am concerned.

In article <749@decuac.UUCP> avolio@decuac.UUCP (Frederick M. Avolio) writes:
>You are volunteering to moderate?  What will be your criteria for
>an allowable posting?  (I'm not sure you'd make a good moderator.
>You're too testy :-).)
>-- 
>Fred @ DEC Ultrix Applications Center    {decvax,seismo,cbosgd}!decuac!avolio

I second the opinion.

A. Hudson

woods@hao.UUCP (Greg Woods) (01/03/86)

> In response to the referenced posting, I am asking that the net
> be polled as to whether postings of this nature should be allowed
> to continue.

  [It was a job opening announcement]

  I hardly think 6 lines is all that objectionable. Certainly no worse than
people posting their resumes. That article was perfectly in line with the
purpose of the group to which it was posted, and was very short. I don't see
why the big stink.

> The poster of the article is using the net for a *FREE* ride which
> it is not. 

  Not quite, because I think the net at large benefits from having access
to knowing where the jobs are.

> The net needs to decide this with the fastest possible speed, for if
> we do not the net will be flooded with every possible item for sale.

  net.jobs has been around for a long time, and the net has not been "flooded".
Your posting is liable to draw a LOT more traffic than the article in question.

> There is a big difference between an individual posting an article
> to na.forsale and selling that item; and what MDEE is doing with her
> postings.

  Really? What is it?

> If the net cannot decide on this issue, I call for a poll to rmgroup
> net.jobs and create mod.jobs. 

  I'm for that, but only becvause I think that the only way to save the net
is to moderate practically ALL groups, but that's another issue. Even if
we DO eventually create mod.jobs I don't want to see job opening notices
eliminated. Especially since the organization I work for is facing a possible
big budget cut! :-)

> I ask that while the net is deciding the
> issue that a cancel message be sent out on the referenced article and
> MDEE be informed that all further postings from her will not be
> forwarded.

  Since when have we adopted a "guilty until proven innocent" policy?

--Greg
--
{ucbvax!hplabs | decvax!noao | mcvax!seismo | ihnp4!seismo}
       		        !hao!woods

CSNET: woods@NCAR  ARPA: woods%ncar@CSNET-RELAY

scarter@caip.RUTGERS.EDU (Stephen M. Carter) (01/04/86)

In article <2673@umcp-cs.UUCP> tlr@umcp-cs.UUCP (Terry L. Ridder) writes:
>In response to the referenced posting, I am asking that the net
>be polled as to whether postings of this nature should be allowed
>to continue.
>

I would say to let it ride.   A job is a job.  Let the reader decide
if he/she wants to use the information or not.  After all, most postings
can be looked at as an "ad" if it mentions a product that one should buy
or place where one should visit.   Should we edit net.auto and cut anything
that mentions "Ford"???

However, I would not mind a marker of some sort in the header line, just
so everyone knows where they are coming from...(and a small donation to the
local SPCA for each posting :-) )

green@osu-eddie.UUCP (Jeffrey Greenberg) (01/04/86)

**

It is plain that Mr. Ridder doesn't like headhunters and desires
to push this point to the extreme...  If you've been following
this newsgroup, as I expect nearly everyone has, Mr. Ridder is well
known for two things: he thinks headhunters are ripoffs, and, his
youngest child has important things for all of us to hear.

It seems to me that professional information is worth supporting
on this network and that job information, from wherever it comes,
is professional information.

There is nothing wrong with the ads we have seen: they are brief
and to the point.  What we fear is the obsequeous "madison ave" ad,
and only because we are so insulted and inundated by it on TV.
(Though the ads are often far more powerful than the TV shows,
telling whole stories in 15 seconds).

Jeffrey Greenberg
cbosgd!osu-eddie!green

bzs@bu-cs.UUCP (Barry Shein) (01/05/86)

Article 1.

>From: tlr@umcp-cs.UUCP (Terry L. Ridder)
>Organization: The Terry L. Ridder Family
>
>In response to the referenced posting, I am asking that the net
>be polled as to whether postings of this nature should be allowed
>to continue.
>
>The poster of the article is using the net for a *FREE* ride which
>it is not. Why should Companys, Universities, and private individuals
>pay for MDEE's advertising cost. The net is not *FREE* it does cost
>money to keep it running.

Article 2.

>From: avolio@decuac.UUCP (Frederick M. Avolio)
>Organization: ULTRIX Applications Center, MD
>
>Sheesh.  What's the big difference? "Why should Companys, Universities,
>and private individuals pay for" *anyone's* "advertising cost?" Why should
>they pay for reviews about books or movies?

A while ago I remember posting an article claiming that it seemed that
commercial concerns were often (not always, of course I get a reply from
one lone individual out there who says "not me") playing apologists for
commercial uses of the net while non-commercial users were flaming about
such uses.

Seems like we have a good one here.

I for one am quite rabidly against the commercialization of this net.

A review is not an advertisement (ask how much the movie paid to
be reviewed in your local newspaper, hopefully nothing, anything else
would be a scandal), gimme a break, you are stretching the term beyond
limit. I suppose this note is an advertisement for Dictionaries
because it is in English (more or less.) Just because someone may happen
to benefit (eg. a good product review) is not proof of an advertisement
(this is so silly I don't know why I even argue.)

I doubt one would like to play Philadelphia lawyer (old idiom, hairsplitter)
with someone like that. No, I doubt we could come up with hard and fast
rules that apply like a mathematical formula for what is commercial and
what is not.

Yes, I agree it's hard to see how a job offer is going to be completely
non-commercial when obviously only companies usually hire people on this
net (I doubt anyone will get too much luck with domestic help wanteds here.)
I suspect the rule will have to be (and has been) relaxed quite a bit
for net.jobs so the example above may be bad (Fred may even be right tho
he has a weird way of reasoning it out.)

I would offer one possible rule of thumb with products other than jobs
(is a job a product?): If new ones will be manufactured/obtained and
distributed by you to fill demand, then it probably doesn't belong on
the net. That is, me selling my car is ok, GM selling their cars
isn't...simple, no? Me selling my PC is ok, an IBM dealer hawking PCs
is not, etc. I am sure some bean-counter out there will find an exception
to this but I rely on people's good judgement to go with the spirit and
not the letter of such a rule (if it were adopted.) Of course this all
presumes a financial transaction first.

I am seeing more and more violations of this unofficial rule, as I said
before, I think the companies out there are getting *real* hungry for
the opportunity and some are starting to burst forth.

As a bottom line argument, isn't there a legal reason why we have to
be careful about such things? I seem to remember one of the net-gods
explaining something about the FCC reclassifying life as we know it
if they adjudge commercialism and we will all have to start seeing
an ad every 7 mail messages of which 3 must be I Love Lucy re-runs :-)

I'm serious, I think a lot of the commercial folks out there don't under-
stand in their lust for profits that they can sink the ship for a little
free advertising.

	-Barry Shein, Boston University

This is not an ad for Boston University, in fact, it may have a negative
effect....

gds@mit-eddie.UUCP (Greg Skinner) (01/06/86)

It seems that this problem with companies posting job offers has only
cropped up when the company is acting as an intermediary between us
readers and the actual company which is offering the job.  While I
understand that certain contracting firms have an obligation not to
disclose the names of the companies which contract them to supply them
with employees, I do not think the net is an appropriate place for
unknown third parties to benefit from the hiring of contracted workers
at the net's expense.

mod.jobs is starting to look like a good idea!  (as an alternative, NOT
a replacement to net.jobs.  if anyone is interested in its creation get
in touch with me!)  in mod.jobs, criteria for the posting of job
availability and person availability can be set which cannot in
net.jobs.

In the meantime, I would ask that contracting firms be prepared not to
have their articles forwarded through the net, since some sites may not
wish to support the hiring needs of unknown third parties (they may be
competitors!).  (NB:  I'm not saying I won't pass on these articles, but
I could understand commercial sites unwillingness to.)
-- 
It's like a jungle sometimes, it makes me wonder how I keep from goin' under.

Greg Skinner (gregbo)
{decvax!genrad, allegra, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds
gds@mit-eddie.mit.edu

msc@saber.UUCP (Mark Callow) (01/07/86)

> From: Barry Shein, Boston University
> 
> >From: avolio@decuac.UUCP (Frederick M. Avolio)
> >Organization: ULTRIX Applications Center, MD
> >
> >Sheesh.  What's the big difference? "Why should Companys, Universities,
> >and private individuals pay for" *anyone's* "advertising cost?" Why should
> >they pay for reviews about books or movies?
> 
> A while ago I remember posting an article claiming that it seemed that
> commercial concerns were often (..text deleted..) one lone individual
> playing apologists for commercial uses of the net while non-commercial
> users were flaming about such uses.
> 
> Seems like we have a good one here.

I suspect Digital's usenet bills are a great deal higher than BU's.
According to my sources, the difference is not unadjacent to seven figures.

Let's get this discussion out of net.jobs.  It was old before it started.
-- 
From the TARDIS of Mark Callow
msc@saber.uucp,  sun!saber!msc@decwrl.dec.com ...{ihnp4,sun}!saber!msc
"Boards are long and hard and made of wood"

skip@ubvax.UUCP (Skip Addison Jr) (01/14/86)

Newsgroups: net.jobs,net.news.groups
Subject: Re: Job Openings (very mild flame)
Summary: 
Expires: 
References: <1314@ames.UUCP> <15600006@orstcs.UUCP>
Sender: 
Reply-To: skip@ubvax.UUCP (Skip Addison Jr)
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: Ungermann-Bass, Inc., Santa Clara, Ca.
Keywords: 

We seem to be forming a consensus of opinion here and I want to get my
$27 or $35 worth in (or whatever one of these messages cost).

The net is for the benefit of the readers.  Articles which do not benefit
the readers of the network should not be sent.  mdee's articles were short,
to the point, and may benefit those looking for a job.  If every head-hunter
could meet those qualities, let them all post.  The more short, to the point
postings looking for people who are likely to be reading net.jobs, the better. 

My fingers are itching to write a 15 screen observation that the complaints 
about someone getting a free ride cost many times more than the original 
article.  But I won't.  :-)

-- Skip Addison
   lll-crg!amdcad!cae780!ubvax!skip