tnixon@uunet.uu.net (Toby Nixon) (02/25/91)
In article <telecom11.155.8@eecs.nwu.edu>, telecom@eecs.nwu.edu (TELECOM Moderator) writes: > I have always wondered why people write phone numbers with parenthesis > around the area code, as though it were incidental to the entire > number, i.e. (311) 555-2368? The correct way to write the number is > with dashes and no parenthesis -- or dots if you prefer -- in this > format: 311-555-2368, or 311.555.2368. Actually, Pat, you should look at CCITT Recommendation E.123, which specifically addresses the issue of how telephone numbers should appear in printed material. The recommended format has SPACES between parts of the number (country code, city/area code, exchange, station), with a "+" preceeding the country code. The use of parenthesis surrounding the city/area code is specifically permitted when it is desirable to indicate that portion of the phone number that is optional when dialing from within the local area. Use of dashes or periods is optional, as well, and specifically stated as being to accomodate national conventions (i.e., Ma Bell always used dashes, and who is the CCITT to say they can't?) One notes, for example, that CCITT Recommendation T.30 specifies that the only characters valid for inclusion in a facsimile phone number field (TSI/CSI/CID frame) are the digits zero through nine, space, and plus. Many fax machines do indeed support the entire ASCII/IA5/T.50 character set, but only those twelve characters are mandatory. Toby Nixon, Principal Engineer | Voice +1-404-840-9200 Telex 151243420 Hayes Microcomputer Products Inc. | Fax +1-404-447-0178 CIS 70271,404 P.O. Box 105203 | UUCP uunet!hayes!tnixon AT&T !tnixon Atlanta, Georgia 30348 USA | Internet hayes!tnixon@uunet.uu.net
briang@eng.sun.com (Brian Gordon) (02/26/91)
In article <telecom11.155.8@eecs.nwu.edu> TELECOM Moderator wrote
about the ways people write their phone number, and the area code
being in parenthesis as though it were incidental.
Perhaps it is more than that. If I dial the ten-digit number of my
second home phone from my first, I get "can not be completed as
dialed" -- the area-code is actually hostile. In that sense, the
(xxx) reminds callers that it is mandatory in some situations,
optional in others, and hostile in others. In other words, "remember
to treat these three digits in a special way."
Brian G. Gordon briang@Sun.COM (if you trust exotic mailers)
...!sun!briangordon (if you route it yourself)david@wyvern.cs.uow.edu.au (David E A Wilson) (02/26/91)
think!barmar@bloom-beacon.mit.edu (Barry Margolin) writes: > There's also a common notation for another optional part of the phone > number, the country code. It is normally written with a preceded by > "+", e.g. +1 (311) 555-2368. Except that then the NPA is mandatory and so not in (). I still see organizations incorrectly listing their international numbers in advertising etc - a motel in Canberra is listed as follows: Phone (06) 2ab cdef [I can't remember the exact #] International 616 2ab cdef I wonder if some poor soul in the USA gets calls for this motel? What other STD/ISD dialing methods are in use in the world? In Australia all STD area codes begin with a zero when dialed nationally and this zero is omitted when dialing from overseas. In the USA your area codes don't have a prefix (unless you count the 1). - David Wilson Dept Comp Sci, Uni of Wollongong david@cs.uow.edu.au
wallyk@bicycle.wv.tek.com (Wally Kramer) (02/26/91)
I recall seeing a TELECOM Digest article mentioning ISO standards about eight or nine months ago which recommended how to write a phone number. As I recall, it explicitly said to not use any punctuation except space and a leading + (to indicate the digits required for international access). So fictitious North American number (311) 555-2368 in Bell (tm) parlance would be written +1 311 555 2368. Wally Kramer contracted from Step Technology, Portland, Oregon 503 244 1239 wallyk@orca.WV.TEK.COM +1 503 685 2658
petrilli@geech.ai.mit.edu (Chris Petrilli) (02/26/91)
Our esteemed Moderator writes: > number, i.e. (311) 555-2368? The correct way to write the number is > with dashes and no parenthesis -- or dots if you prefer -- in this > format: 311-555-2368, or 311.555.2368. I think the use of parenthesis I believe that the ISO says that the following format is the "correct" one: +1 311 555 2368 the format is: +<country_code> <local format> for the US it would be: +1 <area_code> <prefix> <extension> I believe that the standard says that no hyphes nor periods should be used as they sometimes have other purposes. The coincidense of the US version being +1 is just that ... the US country code is 1, so.. Chris Petrilli Internet: petrilli@fsf.ai.mit.edu Insert silly disclaimer drivel here.
roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) (02/26/91)
> I have always wondered why people write phone numbers with parenthesis > around the area code, as though it were incidental to the entire number, > i.e. (311) 555-2368? Odd you should mention that. I recently was expecting somebody on an Air France flight and called their (AF's) office to see when the flight would be in. A recording of an obviously French voice gave me another number to call. What's odd (at least to my American ears) was that the voice gave the new number as something like "area code 212, telephone number xxx-xxxx", as if the area code was not to be considered part of the phone number, but something extra, or as PAT puts it, incidental. I wonder, was it just a oddity of the person who made the recording, an artifact of a person speaking English as a non-native language and struggling with an idiom, or is it just common usage in France to pronounce phone numbers that way? Roy Smith, Public Health Research Institute 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016 roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu -OR- {att,cmcl2,rutgers,hombre}!phri!roy
gordon@sneaky.lonestar.org (Gordon Burditt) (02/26/91)
> I have always wondered why people write phone numbers with parenthesis > around the area code, as though it were incidental to the entire > number, i.e. (311) 555-2368? Because dialing the area code is often prohibited or optional? > with dashes and no parenthesis -- or dots if you prefer -- in this > format: 311-555-2368, or 311.555.2368. What authority establishes that as the correct way (especially with periods -- I haven't seen that in use at all)? Southwestern Bell phone books would write it as 1 + 311 + 555-2368 . The international version is +1 311 555 2368 . A quick glance at newspaper ads reveals that the convention is that even when area codes 800 and 214 both appear in the same ad, 800 is surrounded by dashes and 214 is surrounded by parenthesis. Gordon L. Burditt sneaky.lonestar.org!gordon
rees@pisa.ifs.umich.edu (Jim Rees) (02/27/91)
In article <telecom11.155.8@eecs.nwu.edu>, telecom@eecs.nwu.edu (TELECOM Moderator) writes: > I have always wondered why people write phone numbers with parenthesis > around the area code, as though it were incidental to the entire > number, i.e. (311) 555-2368? I have always wondered why people write phone numbers with no country code, as though it were incidental to the entire number, i.e. 311-555-2368? The correct way to write the number is with the country code in this format: +1 311 555 2368. Seriously though, a glance through the local phone book shows that even TPC is confused on this matter. In the first dozen pages of the Ann Arbor book we see the following numbers. Formatting is faithfully reproduced. 0 9-1-1 1 800 44ARSON 1-800-572-1308 1 517 546-2440 1 226-6400 Secret Service -- note that 10-digit is now mandatory in 313, so this number would seem to be wrong (or maybe just secret) 1-221-3131 (313) 962-4000 By the way, there are still Enterprise numbers in the book! On page 128 of the "business white pages" we have: UTA French Airlines Chicago Il An Arb Tele Only No Charge Dial Operator And Ask For ------ Enterprise-8844 Glad to see this venerable old institution still survives.
tholome@elaine8.stanford.edu (Eric THOLOME) (02/27/91)
In article <telecom11.158.4@eecs.nwu.edu> roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) writes: > [...] A recording of an obviously French voice > gave me another number to call. What's odd (at least to my American > ears) was that the voice gave the new number as something like "area > code 212, telephone number xxx-xxxx", as if the area code was not to > be considered part of the phone number, but something extra, or as PAT > puts it, incidental. > I wonder, was it just a oddity of the person who made the > recording, an artifact of a person speaking English as a non-native > language and struggling with an idiom, or is it just common usage in > France to pronounce phone numbers that way? I don't have a precise answer to that question, but I might have some hints explaning why this occured. Until five years ago, France was devided in about 100 areas. Each had an area code, and everything was working similarly to the US system: the phone numbers where supposed to be written this way (xx) xx xx xx (though the area code was often dropped by non professionals). To phone in the same area, you had to dial only the last six digits. To phone in another area, you had to dial 16, get a tone, and then dial the full phone number. About five years ago, the system was changed, and the notion of area disappeared. Everybody got an eight digit phone number xx xx xx xx, which was, of course, obtained by adding the area code to the old phone number. This is why some people still talk about their phone number the way they used to do it before, that is by mentionning the area code, and then the phone number. To be precise, I should also tell you that it is actually not as simple as I put it: before, some areas like Paris had seven digit phone numbers. Therefore, they decided to add a 4 in front of it to get the new eight digit phone number. The problem was that this was leading to phone numbers starting with 46 for example, which is the area code near Royan (Town on the Atlantic Ocean coast). Therefore, they had to keep a system of areas. France is now devided in two areas: Paris and elsewhere. To phone inside an area, just use the eight digit phone number. To phone from Paris to outside, use 16 xx xx xx xx. To phone from outside to Paris, use 16 1 xx xx xx xx. People in Paris should print their phone number this way: (1) xx xx xx xx. I believe the use of the (1) is not symmetric in order to be able to make the difference when a call is coming from another country. Eric THOLOME tholome@isl.stanford.edu Stanford University
jwb@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (Jim Breen) (02/27/91)
[My word, hasn't Patrick stirred up a storm on this one. All praise to the many who weighed in with the quotations from the CCITT E series. When subscriber trunk dialling was introduced here many years ago, the PMG (Telecom Australia's predecessor) ran a large publicity campaign encouraging people to use the (aaa) xxx yyyy format when printing their numbers. They have not pushed the two line national/international format to the same extent.] In article <telecom11.158.5@eecs.nwu.edu>, david@wyvern.cs.uow.edu.au (David E A Wilson) writes: > I still see organizations incorrectly listing their international > numbers in advertising etc -- a motel in Canberra is listed as follows: > Phone (06) 2ab cdef [I can't remember the exact #] > International 616 2ab cdef > I wonder if some poor soul in the USA gets calls for this motel? Worse than that, David. CSIRO ran some job advertisements in the international press last year (New Scientist, etc.) quoting their (Sydney) numbers as (612) xxx yyyy, instead of +61 2 xxx yyyy. I guess a lot of people in the (US? Canada?) 61x area codes are getting used to receiving calls intended for Australia. > What other STD/ISD dialing methods are in use in the world? In > Australia all STD area codes begin with a zero when dialed nationally > and this zero is omitted when dialing from overseas. In the USA your > area codes don't have a prefix (unless you count the 1). - From my experience most countries EXCEPT the country code '1' brigade (US/Canada/Mexico/etc) use a leading zero, which is omitted when dialling from foreign parts. I am always amused by the postings from North American readers suggesting that their (minority) approach be made the world standard. Jim Breen AARNet:jwb@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au Department of Robotics & Digital Technology. Monash University. PO Box 197 Caulfield East VIC 3145 Australia (ph) +61 3 573 2552 (fax) +61 3 573 2745
goudreau@dg-rtp.dg.com (Bob Goudreau) (02/27/91)
In article <telecom11.158.5@eecs.nwu.edu>, david@wyvern.cs.uow.edu.au (David E A Wilson) writes: > What other STD/ISD dialing methods are in use in the world? In > Australia all STD area codes begin with a zero when dialed nationally > and this zero is omitted when dialing from overseas. In the USA your > area codes don't have a prefix (unless you count the 1). - Perhaps a better way to think about area codes is to mentally leave off the national access prefix. I.e., it's much simpler to say "the area code for Canberra is 2" than to say "the area code for Canberra is 02 in Australia and 2 outside of it. The zero becomes the "interarea access prefix", in the same way that international calls require an international access prefix. After all, we don't say "the country code for Australia from Germany is 0061"; the "00" is just the (German) international access prefix. Bob Goudreau +1 919 248 6231 Data General Corporation goudreau@dg-rtp.dg.com 62 Alexander Drive ...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!goudreau Research Triangle Park, NC 27709, USA
schultz@uunet.uu.net (Rob Schultz) (02/27/91)
In <telecom11.163.2@eecs.nwu.edu> jwb@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (Jim Breen) writes: > Worse than that, David. CSIRO ran some job advertisements in the > international press last year (New Scientist, etc.) quoting their > (Sydney) numbers as (612) xxx yyyy, instead of +61 2 xxx yyyy. I guess > a lot of people in the (US? Canada?) 61x area codes are getting used > to receiving calls intended for Australia. The 612 area code covers central Minnesota, including Minneapolis. That area happens to have a fair amount of large business, and therefore a fairly sizable population. My guess (and everyone here will correct me if I'm wrong :-) is that there is a better than 50% chance that the number given in these adverts is in use somewhere in Minnesota. Given the assumption that relatively few people are truly informed about international calling, I would say the odds are pretty good that someone in that area did receive quite a few calls. "Hello" "Hi, Is this Sydney Australia?" "No, this is Podunk Minnesota." "Really? But the number I have is . . ." "Well, sorry about that, I am in Minnesota" "You must be mistaken, I dialed Australia" "Well, you know I have always wanted to visit there, perhaps you can convince the phone company to move me . . ." Well, the scenario *could* be different . . . Rob Schultz +1 708 632 2267 Motorola General Systems Sector schultz@motcid.rtsg.mot.com 1501 West Shure Drive Rm 3118 ...!uunet!motcid!schultz Arlington Heights, IL 60004 All appropriate disclaimers apply.
K_MULLHOLAND@unhh.unh.edu (KATH MULLHOLAND) (02/28/91)
In entry 11.158.1, it's suggested that we look at: > Actually, Pat, you should look at CCITT Recommendation E.123, which > specifically addresses the issue of how telephone numbers should > appear in printed material. What is CCITT? Kath Mullholand UNH Durham, NH.
sbrack@hpuxa.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Steven S. Brack) (02/28/91)
In article <telecom11.163.4> rees@citi.umich.edu (Jim Rees) writes:
=> UTA French Airlines Chicago Il
=> An Arb Tele Only No Charge
=> Dial Operator And Ask For ------ Enterprise-8844
=>
=> Glad to see this venerable old institution still survives.
I thought I knew most of the terms associated with telephony, but I
have never heard of "Enterprise-NNNN." What is it?
Steven S. Brack sbrack@hpuxa.ircc.ohio-state.edu
sbrack@ewf.eng.ohio-state.edu (Avoid sending here, if possible)
[Moderator's Note: "Enterprise", aka "Zenith" was the predecessor to
800 service. Prior to being able to automatically dial a reverse
charge (collect) call to persons automatically willing to recieve
same, it was necessary to use the operator for this function. Unlike a
regular collect call where the operator had to verbally obtain
permission from the called party to charge the call to their line, the
use of "Enterprise - xxxx" (in some places it was "Zenith - xxxx") was
a code number telling the operator the charges were automatically
accepted. A business (there were no personal users of Enterprise
service) would obtain an Enterprise number from the national database
of same, which as I recall was/is kept by the Rate and Route Bureau in
Morris, IL (itself a function of AT&T). Maybe Bellcore keeps these
records now, I don't know. The specifications of exactly which calls
would be accepted were printed in telephone directories with the
listing of the business and associated Enterprise number. The example
given here was 'from the Ann Arbor Exchange'.
To call an Enterprise number, you would dial your Long Distance
Operator and ask for the number. The most common and frequently called
Enterprise numbers were noted by the operators in a flip chart
reference list at their disposal. Less common Enterprise numbers were
available to the operator by calling Rate and Route and asking for the
translation. The translation was merely the regular number for the
business, however by virtue of you asking for the Enterprise number,
the operator would put the call through and automatically bill it as a
collect call to the called party.
With the advent of 800 service -- when? circa 1965? -- (and it
likewise can be restricted by locality or geographic region as to who
can and cannot call) Enterprise numbers became obsolete. I do not
think they are even available any longer, and are probably
grandfathered to existing customers who wish to keep them for whatever
reason, never to get them again if they ever give them up. I think
the Bell companies called it "Enterprise" and GTE and many independent
telcos preferred "Zenith". But the database was the same. PAT]david@cs.uow.edu.au (David E A Wilson) (02/28/91)
goudreau@dg-rtp.dg.com (Bob Goudreau) writes: > Perhaps a better way to think about area codes is to mentally leave > off the national access prefix. I.e., it's much simpler to say "the > area code for Canberra is 2" than to say "the area code for Canberra Sydney Sydney > is 02 in Australia and 2 outside of it. The zero becomes the > "interarea access prefix", in the same way that international calls > require an international access prefix. I agree -- but this is not the way the system is described to the general public. The Telecom Australia PSTN (and ISDN) Numbering Plan divides telephone numbers into the following parts: Trunk Prefix Code | National Destination Code | Local Code 0 | 1 to 3 digits | up to 7 digits STD Area Code | | National Significant Number National Number Nowhere in common usage is the Trunk Prefix Code considered to be a separate entity. All telephone directories, advertising etc refer to the STD area code (which includes the 0). For example, the overseas calling page of my telephone directory states: Calling Australia from overseas: When direct dialling Australia from overseas, call a. Appropriate International Access Code b. The Australian Country Code; 61 c. The Area Code without the first zero d. The Telephone number David Wilson Dept Comp Sci, Uni of Wollongong david@cs.uow.edu.au
jwb@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (Jim Breen) (03/01/91)
In article <telecom11.163.1@eecs.nwu.edu>, tholome@elaine8.stanford. edu (Eric THOLOME) writes: > Until five years ago, France was ....... > To phone in the same area, you had to dial only the last six digits. To > phone in another area, you had to dial 16, get a tone, and then dial > the full phone number. ^^^^^^^^^^ Was this process of having to wait for a tone peculiar to France? I never encountered it anywhere else. In fact it caused me acute discomfort the first time I was in Paris (1982 je crois) and I tried to call Australia. I was ignorant of the fact that I was supposed to wait for another tone after dialling the international access code (019?). The first 20 or so times I dialled straight through and ended up with message in French telling me the number was not connected. On the 21st try I paused for some reason, and "Voila!" there was a click, whirrrrrr, and I had another dial tone. All was explained. I was furious that NOWHERE in the phone book was this mentioned. I later found out that the French took it for granted. Jim Breen AARNet:jwb@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au Department of Robotics & Digital Technology. Monash University. PO Box 197 Caulfield East VIC 3145 Australia (ph) +61 3 573 2552 (fax) +61 3 573 2745
macy@usenet.ins.cwru.edu (Macy Hallock) (03/03/91)
In article <telecom11.155.8@eecs.nwu.edu> our Moderator Notes: > I have always wondered why people write phone numbers with parenthesis > around the area code, as though it were incidental to the entire > number, i.e. (311) 555-2368? Actually, Pat, this is the way I was taught to do it at The Phone Company back in 1967. The explaination given was: use parens to denote the area code was separate from the phone number, since it was only required for calling from outside the area code. I recall reading this in some type of official documentation, probably training material of some type. I asked why a 1 was not shown, and was told that some areas did not use 1 for toll access (e.g. NYC) ... only later did I find out about Stromberg Carlson "circle digit" and other oddball toll access code schemes used by the independant co's ... and then there was AE SATT. Macy M. Hallock, Jr. macy@fmsystm.UUCP macy@NCoast.ORG uunet!aablue!fmsystm!macy
penguin@pro-igloo.cts.com (Mark Steiger) (03/03/91)
In-Reply-To: message from sbrack@hpuxa.ircc.ohio-state.edu Up here, I know of two or three companies that are too stubborn to get an 800 number and still have Zenith numbers. Every now and then I call them, and if I get a new operator, I have to explain to her what I want done. Training them in with the new and forgetting the old stuff. :) [ Mark Steiger, Sysop, The Igloo BBS 218-262-3142 300-19.2K Baud (HST/Dual)] Internet: Penguin@pro-igloo.cts.com MCI Mail: MSteiger UUCP: ...crash!pro-igloo!penguin ATT Mail: MSteiger ProLine: Penguin@pro-igloo America Online: Goalie5 TELEX: 51623155 MSTEIGER
tnixon@uunet.uu.net (Toby Nixon) (03/03/91)
In article <telecom11.166.4@eecs.nwu.edu>, K_MULLHOLAND@unhh.unh.edu (KATH MULLHOLAND) writes: > What is CCITT? CCITT is the abbreviation for Comite Consultatif International Telegraphique et Telephonique, or, in English, International Telegraph and Telephone Consultative Committee. It is a part of the International Telecommunications Union, which is part of the United Nations. CCITT is based in Geneva, Switzerland. The members of the CCITT are the "Administrations" -- the Postal, Telegraph, and Telephone (PTT) systems in each country. In the USA, we don't have a nationalized system, so the US Department of State is the official US representative (and there are communities in the State Dept. to formulate US positions on CCITT issues; I serve on one of these committees). Also members of CCITT are "Recognized Private Operating Agencies" (RPOAs), such as AT&T, MCI, Sprint, etc.; "Scientific and Industrial Organizations" (SIOs) such as modem manufacturers, telephone equipment manufacturers, fax machine manufacturers, etc.; and "Liaison Organizations", which are other parts of the UN and other international organizations such as ISO (International Standards Organization) which have an interest in the work of the CCITT. Only the Administrations and RPOAs have a VOTE on CCITT issues, but all four membership classes can participate in meetings and make contributions -- and pay dues (a modem manufacturer's dues run about $15,000). CCITT is organized as fifteen "Study Groups", each on a particular area of telecommunications: SG I Definition, operation, and quality of service aspects of telegraph, data transmission and telematic services (facsimile, Teletex, Videotex, etc.) SG II Operation of telephone network and ISDN SG III General tariff principles including accounting SG IV Transmission maintenance of international lines, circuits, and chains of circuits; maintenance of automatic and semi-automatic networks SG V Protection against dangers and disturbances of electromagnetic origin SG VI Outside plant SG VII Data communication networks SG VIII Terminal equipment for telematic services (facsimile, Teletex, videotex, etc.) SG IX Telegraph networks and terminal equipment SG X Languages and methods for telecommunications applications SG XI ISDN and telephone network switching and signalling SG XII Transmission performance of telephone networks and terminals SG XV Transmission systems SG XVII Data transmission over the telephone network SG XVIII Digital networks including ISDN CCITT is, therefore, the focus for agreements between countries on how international telephone, telegraph, and data networks are to be interconnected, how accounts are settled, how modems and facsimile work, and a lot of other subjects. Toby Nixon, Principal Engineer | Voice +1-404-840-9200 Telex 151243420 Hayes Microcomputer Products Inc. | Fax +1-404-447-0178 CIS 70271,404 P.O. Box 105203 | UUCP uunet!hayes!tnixon AT&T !tnixon Atlanta, Georgia 30348 USA | Internet hayes!tnixon@uunet.uu.net
crawford@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (Brian Crawford) (03/03/91)
In article <telecom11.172.2@eecs.nwu.edu>, jwb@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (Jim Breen) writes: > Was this process of having to wait for a tone peculiar to France? I remember having to do this a few years ago in Zimbabwe to get to an international trunk to dial the states. A prefix was dialed, and you had to wait for a second dial tone before dialing the country code+. It was in a small town, and if memory serves correct, this wasn't required in Harare, one of the largest cities. Brian Crawford INTERNET (current): crawford@enuxha.eas.asu.edu PO Box 804 (permanent): crawford@stjhmc.fidonet.org Tempe, Arizona 85280 FidoNet: 1:114/15.12 USA Amateur: KL7JDQ
ndallen@utdoe.uucp (Nigel Allen) (03/04/91)
In article <telecom11.158.4@eecs.nwu.edu> roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) writes: > [...] A recording of an obviously French voice > gave me another number to call. What's odd (at least to my American > ears) was that the voice gave the new number as something like "area > code 212, telephone number xxx-xxxx", as if the area code was not to > be considered part of the phone number, but something extra, or as PAT > puts it, incidental. When a phone number has been changed to one in a new area code, I distinctly prefer an intercept announcement that precedes the area code with the words "area code" or "area". Otherwise, people will think that the initial three digits are a local prefix, and get confused by hearing seven more digits. Bell Canada intercept operators normally would pronounce a new number as "area 613 232-xxxx", but Bell Canada's automated intercept system just gives the number as 613 232-xxxx. Nigel Allen ndallen@contact.uucp
nol2105%dsacg2.dsac.dla.mil@dsac.dla.mil (Robert E. Zabloudil) (03/08/91)
In article <telecom11.166.3@eecs.nwu.edu> gordon@sneaky.lonestar.org (Gordon Burditt) writes: X-Telecom-Digest: Volume 11, Issue 166, Message 3 of 12 > A quick glance at newspaper ads reveals that the convention is that > even when area codes 800 and 214 both appear in the same ad, 800 is > surrounded by dashes and 214 is surrounded by parenthesis. That, of course, is the newspaper's own convention, which would vary from paper to paper. Many follow the New York Times stylebook, but many do not. Bob Zabloudil rzabloudil@dsac.dla.mil Opinions strictly my own, etc.
covert@covert.enet.dec.com (John R. Covert) (03/09/91)
[From Greg Monti at NPR, forwarded to the Digest by John Covert.]
While the CCITT recommendations -- and comments of telecomers -- on
this subject were of interest, I've noticed that there *is* an
apparent US or NANP standard:
US domestic local and long distance phone companies all seem to write
phone numbers identically to each other. Just look in any phone
directory (both the info pages at the front and the main directory
listings) or at the itemized calls on any long distance bill. NANP
10-digit phone numbers are always listed the same way:
202 822-2633
A space after the area code, a hyphen between prefix and suffix. No
parenthesis. The space separates; the hyphen unifies by joining the 7
digits into a block of printed text. I follow this "standard of the
NANP telcos".
Interestingly enough, this convention is REVERSED in the United Kingdom:
071-402 7633 [A hotel I once stayed at in the Bayswater district, please
don't call them unless you want to do business with them.]
The thought there, perhaps, is that the hyphen acts as a separator.
I agree with the Moderator that people are, shall we say, less than
complete when they don't include area codes with the seven digit
numbers. I'm glad that Washington DC area business are now forced by
marketplace reality to reveal their area codes.
The philosophical question is: are you telling someone "what buttons
to press to reach you" (which could be seven, eight, ten or eleven
digits -- which version should you print?) or "what your phone number
is" (always ten digits). I vote for the latter. It provides full
information; the user can figure out how to dial it.
Greg Monti, National Public Radio, Washington, DC
+1 202 822-2633 Fax +1 202 822-2699
[Moderator's Note: I would guess your phone number is not always ten
digits; it is always eleven digits if you include the country code.
And if you don't include the country code, then why bother to include
the area code, etc ... or where do you draw the line? PAT]ndallen@contact.uucp (Nigel Allen) (03/09/91)
The main reason that Zenith and Enterprise numbers are obsolete is that they cost so much. I believe that they are normally billed at the same rate as a collect call, and a monthly charge applies as well. (Of course, the time spent in having the operator handle the call also contributes to making Zenith and Enterprise numbers less attractive.) Zenith sounds like a better name than Enterprise because people might try to dial the Enterprise number as EN-XXXX, thinking that it was a local call. There's no risk of that with a Zenith number, since you won't find the Z anywhere on a modern North American telephone dial. (I think some old dials had the Z on the zero, though.) Nigel Allen ndallen@contact.uucp [Moderator's Note: I've got a 'Model Z' Western Electric / Bell phone in my collection of stuff here. The date stamped on the bottom of the phone says it was manufactured by Western Electric Hawthorne Works, July, 1930. The last pull on the dial is both 0 / Operator and 'Z'. One of the first models to incorporate the bell inside the phone itself (rather than requiring a 'side-ringer' or box mounted elsewhere on the wall like the candlestick phones) this one also has a BROWN CLOTH covered, *straight, uncurled* cord from the handset to the base of the phone, and the same brown cloth covered wire from the phone out to the spade lug connectors. When I (rarely) hook it up, it works fine, although it sounds terrible -- the audio is bad. If I bang the mouthpiece a little to shake up the carbon granules, it sounds better. I found it in an obscure place twenty years ago after it had been in service for probably forty years: the elevator machinery room on the roof of the Chicago Temple Building ... it was an extension on the building's PBX system. They liked the 'modern' 2500 set I gave them to replace it! :) (Just like they loved the wall clocks I gave them to replace the two Western Union clocks in the auditorium.) PAT]
hpa@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Peter Anvin) (03/11/91)
In article <telecom11.189.4@eecs.nwu.edu> John R. Covert <covert@ covert.enet.dec.com> writes: > Interestingly enough, this convention is REVERSED in the United Kingdom: > 071-402 7633 [A hotel I once stayed at in the Bayswater district, please > don't call them unless you want to do business with them.] > The thought there, perhaps, is that the hyphen acts as a separator. In my native country of Sweden, phone numbers are written as: 08-736 91 27 (seven-digit numbers only available in 08 = Stockholm) 021-13 25 05 (six-digit numbers available in most cities) 0220-432 11 (five-digit numbers for rural or semi-rural areas) The hyphen works as a separator, spaces do not, and the "area code" marker zero is included in the area code. The number is five to seven digits, the area code two to four; combined no more, but possibly less than nine digits. A two or three-digit area code can have different number length in different areas, depending on prefix, for example 08 (Stockholm) have seven-digit numbers in all 6XX and 7XX exchanges, otherwise six-digit numbers; 021 (V{ster}s) has six-digit numbers in the 1X and 3X exchanges used in V{ster}s itself, five-digit numbers in the other exchanges for the surrounding rural areas). Originally up to only ten or twelve years ago you had to wait for a new dialtone after the area code. You *still* have to do that on international calls after the country code: 009 1 <new dialtone> 708 492 1175 ^^^ International prefix The international way of writing Swedish phone numbers would be: +46 21 132505 for 021-13 25 05. hpa = H. Peter Anvin (in case you wondered) * Heja Sverige! INTERNET: hpa@casbah.acns.nwu.edu FIDONET: 1:115/989.4 HAM RADIO: N9ITP, SM4TKN RBBSNET: 8:970/101.4
goudreau@dg-rtp.dg.com (Bob Goudreau) (03/12/91)
> > Interestingly enough, this convention is REVERSED in the United Kingdom: > > 071-402 7633 ... > > The thought there, perhaps, is that the hyphen acts as a separator. > In my native country of Sweden, phone numbers are written as: > 08-736 91 27 ... > The hyphen works as a separator, spaces do not, ... I always had trouble following that logic. I mean, according to that algorithm, people with hyphenated last names are doing it all wrong. For example, "Lobelia Sackville-Baggins" would become "Lobelia-Sackville Baggins". This is very nonintuitive, because the "Sackville" is more closely associated with the "Baggins" than it is with the "Lobelia", is it not? Likewise with phone numbers: the exchange and local number are more closely associated with each other than with the area code or country code. I find the connecting hyphen to be a much more convincing "binding" character than the space, because the "-" actually appears as a physical link between the two groups of digits (or letters), while the space appears as a gap, and thus is a natural separator. But then, national tastes vary, and what looks obvious and natural in one place may look exactly the opposite in another! Bob Goudreau +1 919 248 6231 Data General Corporation goudreau@dg-rtp.dg.com 62 Alexander Drive ...!mcnc!rti!xyzzy!goudreau Research Triangle Park, NC 27709, USA
robert@uunet.uu.net (Robert L. Oliver) (03/15/91)
Thought I'd add some interesting information: all of the literature which I receive regarding my AT&T Universal Card uses the following phone number formats: For standard phone numbers, they use (NPA) NXX-XXXX For their 800 numbers, they use 800 XXX-XXXX. Interesting. I suppose what they're trying to indicate is that the area code is optional if you're WITHIN the NPA, while the 800 is always required, and thus a non-optional part of the number. Robert Oliver Rabbit Software Corp. 215 993-1152 7 Great Valley Parkway East robert@hutch.Rabbit.COM Malvern, PA 19355 ...!uunet!cbmvax!hutch!robert
msb@sq.com (Mark Brader) (03/20/91)
People have pointed out that in Sweden and the UK and other places... > > ... phone numbers are written as: > > 08-736 91 27 ... > > The hyphen works as a separator, spaces do not, ... > I always had trouble following that logic. I mean, according to that > algorithm, people with hyphenated last names are doing it all wrong. > ... But then, national tastes vary, and what looks obvious and > natural in one place may look exactly the opposite in another! I make no comment about Swedish or other languages, but I certainly agree that in English a hyphen should bind more tightly than a space, and therefore it cannot be the proper separator in this context. I point out, however, that the precedence is correct if the "-" character is taken to be an ASCII (or ISO 646, or typewriter) transliteration of a *dash*. In *typeset* matter in the UK, if the phone number is written in the fashion of the Swedish example above (rather than in international + format or with parentheses), is a dash sometimes seen rather than a hyphen? Mark Brader, SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com