Barton.Bruce@camb.com (Barton F. Bruce) (03/13/91)
I have in front of me a check from MCI for $20. If I were to simply sign it, I would also be signing a permission slip for them to BE my default carrier. I have been told that if someone puts on the back of a check something like "in full payment for denting your fender" that that is NOT part of the check and can be legally CROSSED OUT before signing. There is no wording that I as a layman can find to indicate that the only condition MCI offers the check under is for you to enter into this little contract with them and that you must agree by signing what is printed on the back. I am sure MCI hopes you do it. As far as I can tell, MCI just gave me $20, and I don't need to leave that permission to switch wording intact. Can come legal beagle hazzard a guess as to whether I can simply cross out all that nonsense about switching my service to MCI, and simply cash the check as payment for being hassled again by King Slammer? I am also sure there WOULD be a switch, and then a fight about getting switched back all NOT at my expense, but that will be the fun part. Better yet, who has tried it? [Moderator's Note: Legally, you are on shaky grounds. While the courts have ruled in recent times that 'accord and satisfaction'; i.e. making some sort of restrictive endorsement on a check, won't legally hold up, they were talking about cases where payment of less than the full amount due was tendered as payment in full on an account. I think in your case, MCI could still hold you to the intent of the matter, and claim that you had a contract with them. I doubt they would sue you for the twenty dollars; they might or might not place you with an agency to try and recover the money. I think your suggestion is sort of a chintzy way to try and get something for nothing. PAT]
gws@cblph.att.com (Gary W Sanders) (03/14/91)
In article <telecom11.203.8@eecs.nwu.edu> Barton.Bruce@camb.com (Barton F. Bruce) writes: > I have in front of me a check from MCI for $20. If I were to simply > sign it, I would also be signing a permission slip for them to BE my > default carrier. I think everyone in the world is getting the MCI checks ... the check says if you sign you agree to the switch plus any local telco charges. What happens if you don't sign and cash the check? I very seldom sign checks that I deposit via an ATM. I wonder if I get my $20? I'll bet MCI would still try to switch me. Being an AT&T employee I don't want that now, do I ... Gary Sanders (N8EMR) AT&T Bell Labs, Columbus Ohio gws@cblph.att.com 614-860-5965
henry@garp.mit.edu (Henry Mensch) (03/15/91)
Barton F. Bruce <Barton.Bruce@camb.com> writes: > I have been told that if someone puts on the back of a check something > like "in full payment for denting your fender" that that is NOT part > of the check and can be legally CROSSED OUT before signing. If you find a bank that will accept a check modified like this then you are in good shape. These banks just don't exist (you see, they're not in a position to verify that the modification is approved by the drawer of the check ... moreover, they're not interested, since there's more money to be made by accepting check deposits which do not carry qualified or conditional endorsements). > [Moderator's Note: ... I think your suggestion is sort > of a chintzy way to try and get something for nothing. PAT] Basically, this is true, IMHO. Fighting sleaze with slime is a tactic of dubious utility. If you really *must* have the twenty dollars, you could deposit the check and then close down the phone service they would switch to MCI. of course, not everyone is in a position to do this. # Henry Mensch / <henry@mit.edu> / E40-379 MIT, Cambridge, MA # <hmensch@uk.ac.nsfnet-relay> / <henry@tts.lth.se> / <mensch@munnari.oz.au> # via X.400: S=mensch; OU=informatik; P=tu-muenchen; A=dbp; C=de
irvin@northstar105.dartmouth.edu (Tim Irvin) (03/15/91)
In TELECOM Digest V11 #203, Barton F. Bruce writes: > I have in front of me a check from MCI for $20. If I were to simply > sign it, I would also be signing a permission slip for them to BE my > default carrier. I always understood that the law was that if anyone sends you something through the mail unsolicited, you are free to keep it as a gift with no strings attached no matter what might be implied in the mailing. I used this to my advantage a few years ago when a credit card protection company sent me numerous $5 checks. I was to write my credit card number on the back of the check, sign it, and cash it. I would then be signed up for their protection. I simply wrote "NO THANK YOU" on the line for the credit card number and cashed them. (After eight or nine of these - I'm on a lot of mailing lists - it was a rather nice gift.) Each time they would mail the cashed check back to me with the checking account number on the bottom cut out (so it couldn't be re-cashed I assume), and remind me that I had forgotten to give them my credit card number. I would just throw these away and I never heard back from them again. Someone who has experience with the law might want to let us know what the legal issues of this may be. But for now anything that comes in my mail unsolicited I will be more than happy to take. I hope MCI gets the same mailing lists that the credit card protection service got. I'd love eight or nine free $20 checks :). Unfortunately, I am already signed up with MCI as a 10XXX carrier on both my lines, and they probably are removing current customers from this promotion (would be kind of pointless). Tim Irvin [Moderator's Note: The legal issue is, very simply that they did NOT -- contrary to your assertion -- send you 'something of value unsolicited in the mail which you are free to keep'. Unsolicited, yes. They sent you a contract; asked you to sign it; and offered to pay you on the spot if you would sign it. By tampering with the negotiable instrument enclosed, you commited fraud. The Credit Card Protection people -- likewise a scam perpetrated on innocent consumers -- can sue you to recover their money if they like. They probably won't, but in any event, you are now listed as a mail order deadbeat with at least a few companies. I hope you got something nice with the $40 you made in the process. PAT]
Ed_Greenberg@3mail.3com.com (03/16/91)
> I think your suggestion is sort of a chintzy way to try and get > something for nothing. PAT] Of course it is, but the real question is whether such sales techniques are deceptive. It's been done before. Usually the conditions are in fine-print grey tones on the back of the check. The offering company is counting on your greed, stupidity, and that you'll deposit the check without realizing what the conditions are. Frankly, I think that they should lose the $20 times the number of checks they sent out. I sure wish I'd get one of those for the line that I use for incoming only.
Richard.Lerner@lerner.avalon.cs.cmu.edu (03/16/91)
Barton.Bruce@camb.com (Barton F. Bruce) argues that he can cash the $20 check from MCI without giving them permission to change his Dial-1 service. Lets be reasonable here! MCI makes its intent clear. It wants to give you $20 "cash" to change to MCI, rather than giving rebates on some future bill. Why do you want to pervert this promotion on some legal technicality? Do you really think that wasting peoples' time fighting to have your Dial-1 restored "all NOT at [your] expense" is reasonable? It is arguments like these that make the US one of the most litigious countries. You would rather have MCI spend its money on promotion lawyers, and have your local phone company waste its resources on your "fun", than on improving the phone system. > I am also sure there WOULD be a switch, and then a fight about > getting switched back all NOT at my expense, but that will be the > fun part. Yuck! I happen to be a Sprint customer and do not approve of MCI's alleged slamming. Rick Lerner (ral+@cs.cmu.edu) Carnegie Mellon University
kaufman@neon.stanford.edu (Marc T. Kaufman) (03/16/91)
In article <telecom11.206.4@eecs.nwu.edu> irvin@northstar.dartmouth. edu writes: > In TELECOM Digest V11 #203, Barton F. Bruce writes: -> I have in front of me a check from MCI for $20. If I were to simply -> sign it, I would also be signing a permission slip for them to BE my -> default carrier. > [Moderator's Note: The legal issue is, very simply that they did NOT > -- contrary to your assertion -- send you 'something of value > unsolicited in the mail which you are free to keep'. Unsolicited, yes. ... > you to recover their money if they like. They probably won't, but in > any event, you are now listed as a mail order deadbeat with at least a > few companies. I hope you got something nice with the $40 you made in > the process. PAT] If being listed as a mail order deadbeat means I get a lot less mail from mall order companies ... then send me those checks! (And I thought it would cost ME money to get off the lists)! I'll take my chances on being sued for fraud. In most states, $5 or $10 is well below the limit at which you can be sued in Superior court, and it costs more than that to file for Small Claims court. Marc Kaufman (kaufman@Neon.stanford.edu)
peter@taronga.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) (03/18/91)
I've gotten similar checks (for $5) for "insuring" my credit cards (!). I've always just deposited them and left the credit card part blank. I can certainly use the money. About three weeks later I get a letter reminding me that I haven't given them a credit card number, which I ignored. If someone send you something unsolicited in the mail, it's yours. peter@taronga.uucp.ferranti.com
sichermn@beach.csulb.edu (Jeff Sicherman) (03/19/91)
In article <telecom11.213.2@eecs.nwu.edu> peter@taronga.hackercorp.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > I've gotten similar checks (for $5) for "insuring" my credit cards (!). > I've always just deposited them and left the credit card part blank. > I can certainly use the money. About three weeks later I get a letter > reminding me that I haven't given them a credit card number, which I > ignored. If someone send you something unsolicited in the mail, it's > yours. I'm aware of that law (postal regulation?) but I'm not sure whether it would also apply literally to negotiable instruments (i.e. forms of money). However, what MCI is sending could also be classed as a contractual offer which you are free to accept (by affixing your signature) or reject (by ignoring) just like like magazine subscription offers or many other types of solicitations that are sent by mail. Since the banks have better things to do than administer and enforce someone elses contracts and these days may accept checks for deposit without endorsement (ATM's) they consider the contractual aspects the problem of the issuer; they are only interested in the negotiability. In contractual law you can be deemed to have agreed to a contract if you accept the benefits afforded by the contract whether or not you formally sign anything. Often, this may be the measure of a verbal contract's enforceability. It seems to me that by depositing these checks you are *implicitly* agreeing to the terms of the associated contract since the act of deposit affords you the benefits of it. I expect that the companies doing this have obtained legal guidance on this that exceeds the legal expertise commenting on this (present company included) and know the thing to be enforcable. It's just not worthwhile for a few breakers.
irvin@northstar105.dartmouth.edu (Tim Irvin) (03/22/91)
TELECOM Moderator writes: > [1] The Credit Card Protection > people -- likewise a scam perpetrated on innocent consumers -- can sue > you to recover their money if they like. [2] They probably won't, but in > any event, you are now listed as a mail order deadbeat with at least a > few companies. [3] I hope you got something nice with the $40 you made in > the process. PAT 1. I hope they can find me, I've moved three times since then. 2. Is being listed as a "mail order deadbeat" supposed to be a bad thing??? Anything that will keep the staedy stream of junk-mail outta my house would be great, and it may save a few trees in the process. Actually, I don't think this ever happened, since my steady stream of junk mail never let up. 3. Since I was in college at the time, probably a few meals, or maybe I used it to pay my phone bill. Tim Irvin [Moderator's Note: Some people *like* getting advertising offers through the mail. They find it less pressuring to read the message at their leisure instead of listening to a sales pitch on the phone. And there are mail order houses which ship on open account credit, believe it or not ... no requirement for advance credit card billing or check with order. Of course, not if you're listed with one of the clearing houses they use as a person who engages in petty ripoffs through the mail. PAT]