kent@tfd.com (Kent Hauser) (01/29/91)
What's the latest and greatest in small business telephone systems?
General requirements:
====================
6-8 incoming lines
16-20 telephone lines
"Normal" features such as intercom, paging, DND, etc.
Ability to connect normal two-wire devices such as FAX, answering
machine, cordless phone, etc.
Good value (ie cheap).
Please send your recomendation and I'll be glad to summarize.
Thanks.
Kent Hauser UUCP: {uunet,sundc,uupsi}!tfd!kent
Twenty-First Designs INET: kent@tfd.com
(202) 408-0841 William.Degnan@f39.n382.z1.fidonet.org (William Degnan) (01/31/91)
On <Jan 29 00:43> Kent Hauser writes to All: U> What's the latest and greatest in small business telephone U> systems? U> 6-8 incoming lines 16-20 telephone lines U> "Normal" features such as intercom, paging, DND, etc. U> Ability to connect normal two-wire devices such as FAX, answering U> machine, cordless phone, etc. U> Good value (ie cheap). I suspect the advice you receive will be worth the price paid. It is not enough to know that you are looking in the 8x20 range. The answer depends on what you _really_ need. It depends on what you can get installed properly and supported. It depends on the track record of the manufacturer and the installation/service company. And if you buy the first one in town, will the vendor have spares? For how long? We would be distributing questionaires to your users, looking at your phone bills, wandering around looking for ways that a skilled implementation could improve your operation and we'd be writing a specification based on all that. We'd qualify vendors, looking at past installation work and talking to their customers. We'd find out what references _they_ were given when they bought _their_ system... and we'd call those references. We narrow the field down to three finalists and recommend one. The client picks. It can be a long process but the fit of a telephone system to your operation is very important. All the details are important. Find yourself an honest, reliable, independent consultant. Disclaimer: Contents do not constitute "advice" unless we are on the clock. William Degnan | wdegnan@mcimail.com Communications Network Solutions | !wdegnan@at&tmail.com -Independent Consultants | William.Degnan@telemail.com in Telecommunications | UUCP: ...!natinst!tqc!39!William.Degnan P.O. Drawer 9530 | ARPA: William.Degnan@f39.n382.z1.FidoNet.Org Austin, TX 78766-9530 | Voice +1 512 323 9383
dam@mtqua.att.com (Daniel A Margolis) (02/09/91)
>What's the latest and greatest in small business telephone systems? > General requirements: 6-8 incoming lines ... 16-20 telephone lines > "Normal" features such as intercom, paging, DND, etc. Ability to > connect normal two-wire devices such as FAX, answering machine, > cordless phone, etc. Good value (ie cheap). I noticed this article asking about small phone systems and another asking the new AT&T PARTNER phone system, so I got some information from John Bell, a friend of mine and one of the Systems Engineers who worked on it. He recommends it (surprise, surprise). There was an article in {Teleconnect} about PARTNER. They liked the product, but what they really liked is that the engineer's name is Bell. (He's not related to Alexander Graham Bell.) The following is public information, so no need for a disclaimer (and I've heard that disclaimers don't provide any legal protection anyway). As you read on remember that I am somewhat biased, being an AT&T employee. Here's what John told me: 1) PARTNER is inexpensive. (Yes, this is AT&T we're talking about.) 2) Each port can handle a proprietary phone, a regular tip-ring phone, or both, without any adapters (which are often expensive). 3) PARTNER goes up to 4 CO lines and 12 extensions, while PARTNER PLUS goes up to 8 lines and 24 extensions. If you want to see it for yourself, dial 1-800-247-7000 for the number of a nearby sales office, where they will have one set up that you can look over. They may also have reprints of some of the good press this product line has received. Be warned that they may try to sell you one. You can also see it in AT&T Phone Centers, but their setup may not be fully functional. Dan Margolis [Author's Note: I fully expect a response from John Higdon on this one. Please don't beat me up too badly. I know you're a Panasonic man.]
john@zygot.ati.com (John Higdon) (02/10/91)
Daniel A Margolis <dam@mtqua.att.com> writes: > [Author's Note: I fully expect a response from John Higdon on this one. > Please don't beat me up too badly. I know you're a Panasonic man.] I have not yet had the privelege of laying hands on a PARTNER, so I'll take your comments at face value for now. However, for you as an AT&T employee and others who may have short memories I have a reminder. Not long ago AT&T instigated a government action directed at Japanese manufacturers who made similar systems. AT&T claimed that it was impossible to produce these systems for sale at the prices charged and therefore insisted that dumping was taking place. (Never mind that Matsushita did not even sell an equivalent system in Japan.) The watchword was litigation rather than innovation. Apparently, AT&T has decided that it is indeed possible to produce a full featured system at reasonable prices. Of course, the Panasonic has had the ability to support anything from an ordinary single line phone to a full featured electronic display phone on the same port with no modifications for years. Perhaps AT&T was trying to buy time with its legal manuverings. Introduction of the PARTNER does create an interesting Catch-22 situation. Either the system has deficiencies that would remove it from serious consideration, or if it is as advertised, AT&T was blowing smoke with its trade litigation and claims of preditory pricing. So which is it? John Higdon | P. O. Box 7648 | +1 408 723 1395 john@zygot.ati.com | San Jose, CA 95150 | M o o !
john@zygot.ati.com (John Higdon) (02/14/91)
Dave Levenson <dave@westmark.westmark.com> writes: > I had a long chat with AT&T's local GBS sales office about Partner and > Partner-Plus. I wanted to replace a small business phone system. The > present system is an ITT 701 with three trunks and eight stations, > used only for voice. There is also a Mitel SX-5 PBX with two trunks > and six stations, used only for data. (The PBX stations are one 2500 > set, and five modems.) An additional trunk is connected directly to a > FAX machine, bypassing the 701 and the SX-5. I am currently using a KX-T123210 for voice lines and data lines. There are ten trunks on the system: five for voice and data and five dedicated to incoming data. Four modems each answer a particular line each and there is a FAX machine. If a particular modem has not reset and does not answer, there is a delayed ringing sequence programed into the switch to try another after one ring and so on down the line. This is set up in a circular arrangement, which the Panasonic is easily capable of doing. This arrangement also allows a modem to use other lines, such as WATS, for outgoing calls by simply putting a different trunk group access code in the dial script. > I would like to combine the systems, and pool all of the trunks for > outgoing calls, and still direct inbound traffic to the modem pool, > the fax machine, and the nine voice stations. Additionally, I'd > like to replace four of the eight electronic key sets with 2500 sets. Absolutely no problem with the Panasonic. The KX-T1232 comes equipped to handle 8 trunks and 16 stations (electronic or single line). Stations are added in groups of eight and trunks are added in groups of four (or I should say the last four are added at one time). The single line phone has 99% of the flexibility of the electronic phone, which is extremely powerful. The SLP can call out on any line or group, can answer any line or group, can transfer, can conference, can split a conference, has call waiting, can have data line security, and has different ring cadences for different incoming call and call return sources. An associate has even worked out a way to provide CPC to stations! > They quoted approximately $2,200 for six trunks, and four electronic > key sets. That buys you the 8X16 Panasonic KSU and about four electronic (display) phones. > The single-line sets and installation are extra. If the > installation is not performed by AT&T, they void the warranty. You can get anyone you like to put the Panasonic in with full warranty. > The feature set for the single-line phone is surprisingly weak. As mentioned above, Panasonic support for the SLP is PBX-like. It is also highly configurable in system programming. As mentioned, ALL traffic (computers, voice, FAX) is handled by my Panasonic in my home. > There is no way to choose which trunk the set uses when it originates a > call; it is permanently associated with a specific trunk. Panasonic: dial '9' for auto trunk selection; dial '8X' for a specific group. > calls on that trunk cause the station to ring. Inbound calls on other > trunks may not be answered on that set, but may be transferred there > after they have been answered on a key set. Fully programmable on the Panasonic. You can have a specific trunk ring a SLP, any of a number of trunks ring it, any of a number of trunks on a progammable delayed basis ring it, or you can have no trunks ring it but enable answering via pick up (by groups if desired) code. > Intercom calls dialed to > a single-line set are indistinguishable from inbound trunk calls. Panasonic: double ring for internal, single ring for outside calls. Transfered call changes from double to single ring if the transfering party hangs up (blind transfer). > call which has been placed from or answered at a single-line set may > be held, but may not be transferred to another single-line or key set. Panasonic: you may transfer it freely within the system or trunk to trunk to an outside number. Call forwarding on extensions can be to other extensions or to numbers outside of the system. > If the trunk associated with a single-line set is in use, the set is > unable to place any inside or ourside calls, but may bridge on to the > existing trunk call if the privacy feature is administered OFF. Panasonic: Not applicable. A single line set can do what it likes. A SLP can be programmed to select a particular outgoing trunk group if nothing is dialed within a programmable amount of time if desired. I have a security system dialer that can't deal with anything but a preprogrammed number. No problem. It comes off hook and one second later is presented with outside dial tone (of my choosing). > I was also told that the display-equipped version of the key set would > display calling numbers if the trunks are equipped with Caller*ID > service. The other GBS rep told me that this is not true! Panasonic doesn't do this yet. Not a problem in California. > > 3) PARTNER goes up to 4 CO lines and 12 extensions, while PARTNER PLUS > > goes up to 8 lines and 24 extensions. KX-T1232: 12 lines and 32 extensions. > Could someone provide a comparative feature list for the Panasonic > system? I still want to upgrade the network here at Westmark, but I > don't think the Partner is the 'right choice'. It doesn't sound as though the two systems are even in the same class. I don't have the time to type in the entire feature list of the Panasonic. Its feature offerings are robust, to say the least. Great care has been given to the handling of single line phones, and it is this capability that has made the system so useful my application. John Higdon | P. O. Box 7648 | +1 408 723 1395 john@zygot.ati.com | San Jose, CA 95150 | M o o !
steve@dmntor.uucp (Steve Pozgaj) (02/15/91)
In article <74318@bu.edu.bu.edu> dam@mtqua.att.com (Daniel A Margolis) writes: >>What's the latest and greatest in small business telephone systems? >> General requirements: 6-8 incoming lines ... 16-20 telephone lines >> "Normal" features such as intercom, paging, DND, etc. Ability to >> connect normal two-wire devices such as FAX, answering machine, >> cordless phone, etc. Good value (ie cheap). I did an extensive search of these myself three years ago, and after having evaluated 15 candidates, ended up selecting the CTG 1648/3264. It is, in a word, FANTASTIC! It does exactly what we need for our business. (We're a small 30-person office with lots of incoming lines (13) and simple paging, intercom, and other "normal" features.) I would recommend it VERY HIGHLY. Cost for us three years ago was CDN$15,000 for the whole works, with battery backed up operation, all handsets, and system console (i.e. receptionist's set). Check it out. Steve Pozgaj @ Digital Media.
dmr@csli.stanford.edu (Daniel M. Rosenberg) (02/16/91)
In <74655@bu.edu.bu.edu> john@zygot.ati.com (John Higdon) writes: > Four modems each answer a particular line > each and there is a FAX machine. If a particular modem has not reset > and does not answer, there is a delayed ringing sequence programed > into the switch to try another after one ring and so on down the line. > This is set up in a circular arrangement, which the Panasonic is > easily capable of doing. This arrangement also allows a modem to use > other lines, such as WATS, for outgoing calls by simply putting a > different trunk group access code in the dial script. We have a 1232 as well, but I don't see how it's physically possible for you to call-forward-no answer CO calls. Perhaps your modems get called from the DISA card? But I thought the call-forward-no answer/busy works only on extension-to-extension calls. If that's not true, I'd be psyched to figure out what you did to make yours work otherwise. We're paying a $40/month premium to the University phone department for the privilidge of CO-hunting. # Daniel M. Rosenberg Stanford Univ CSLI Opinions here are my own # dmr@csli.stanford.edu {apple,ucbvax}!labrea!csli!dmr BIT:dmr%csli@stanford
wright@ais.org (Carl Wright) (02/16/91)
I urge you to consider buying used switch gear. The MTBF on telecom
equipment is so long that after the first user tires of it or grows
out of it, there is plenty of time for a new user to get tired out it.
Either use a local teleconnect company to find a switch or call
1-800-322-5156 to get a free subscription to {Telecom Gear} to find
equipment or a used equipment supplier. There is also an annual
article in {Teleconnect} that covers used equipment and their
suppliers.
We bought a Mitel Super10 years ago from a local teleconnect company
and couldn't be happier. It is an 8 by 16 PBX.
Carl Wright | Lynn-Arthur Associates, Inc.
Internet: wright@ais.org | 2350 Green Rd., #160
Voice: 1 313 995 5590 EST | Ann Arbor, MI 48105john@zygot.ati.com (John Higdon) (02/17/91)
"Daniel M. Rosenberg" <dmr@csli.stanford.edu> writes: > We have a 1232 as well, but I don't see how it's physically possible > for you to call-forward-no answer CO calls. I don't. The phone company provides the BY forwarding. But rather than have each modem a slave to a particular line, it is capable of answering another modem's line if that the second unit is not ready. For instance, call comes in on line one. Modem one answers. Call comes in on line two (courtesy Pac*Bell's busy forwarding). Modem two answers. Meanwhile line one has hung up, but the modem is not ready for another call. But a call comes in on line one again. After a delay, the Panasonic routes the call to modem three and the call is answered. No, I'm not doing any magic at the CO level, but the Panasonic prevents lines going unanswered because particular modems are not ready by sending the call to an available modem. John Higdon | P. O. Box 7648 | +1 408 723 1395 john@zygot.ati.com | San Jose, CA 95150 | M o o !
brian@uunet.uu.net (Brian Cuthie) (05/12/91)
May I suggest looking into the Northern Telecom Norstar system. It is the low end system in the Meridian line. It features phones with alphanumeric displays, LCD line indicators, reconfigurable buttons, millions and millions of software features, and a software module that can be replaced in the future with newer versionbs of the code. Each set is connected via a single pair of wires. The system is ISDN to the sets and internally. Each set get's 2B+D and can use the spare B channnel for simultanious data transmission. There is a developer's kit (which cost megabucks, incidentally) which allows a PC to monitor/control switch operation. In fact, you can even have the PC grab the keypad and interpret keys in some fashion, displaying prompts on the phone's alpha display, and then the PC can set up the call. One PC is capable of providing enhanced features for all phones simultaneously. I have had mine for more than a year now and am EXTREMELY pleased with it/ My only complaint is that the guys at NT are missing the boat by making the developer's kit too expensive (by expensive, I mean to the tune of $25k!). They need to realize that if people buy the kit to develop applications, they can only be run on NT hardware. Therefore, they sell at least one switch for every developed application. Of course, these guys want to get greedy too. I know that they will more than likely read this and say "but it cost us sooo much to support the developers." Bunk! The unbundled price for the developer's kit is on the order of $13K to get the software, documents, some equipment, and support. Then, when you're done developing your app they want another $15K [!!!!] liscense fee just for the *priveledge* of selling NT phone systems with your app wrapped around them! Geesh guys! GET A CLUE! Anyway, opportunities abound if NT ever straightens their act out, or you have a spare $25K lying around. Wishing I did, brian VOICE: 301-381-1718 Internet: brian@umbc3.umbc.edu
Alex Beylin <alexb@cfctech.cfc.com> (05/14/91)
In article <telecom11.357.2@eecs.nwu.edu> is written: > May I suggest looking into the Northern Telecom Norstar system. It is > the low end system in the Meridian line. Couple of questions, if I may: 1. Can this system use standard phones in addition to NT phones? 2. What are the limits for number of incomming lines and phone sets? 3. How is modem support handled? Can I make a "direct connect" between an incomming line and a modem port on my PC based on hours or can the switch detect modem on the line and automaticly transfer the call to a pre-assigned extention? 4. What is the pricing like? Thanks in advance, Alex Beylin alexb@cfctech.cfc.com
The Super User <jimmy@denwa.info.com> (05/17/91)
In article <telecom11.357.2@eecs.nwu.edu> umbc3!umbc3.umbc.edu! brian@uunet.uu.net (Brian Cuthie) writes: > My only complaint is that the guys at NT are missing the boat by > making the developer's kit too expensive (by expensive, I mean to the > tune of $25k!). They need to realize that if people buy the kit to > develop applications, they can only be run on NT hardware. I know someone who was working with NT on a vertical application for the Norstar. When management heard that he only expected to be able to sell a few thousand of his application, they forbid the engineers from speaking to him any more. They said they were interested only in working with "companies like IBM and DEC". They need to realize that the innovative applications for their Norstar are not going to come from IBM or DEC. NT should be giving away the developer kit to encourage as many applications as possible. As Brian pointed out, anyone who wants to run these app's will have to buy NT hardware. Northern Telecom has the right idea (opening up the architecture), but they need to make it affordable to the very kind of companies that have the potential to develop the killer applications that could make their Norstar the standard key system around which all custom applications are built.
brian@uunet.uu.net> (05/18/91)
In article <telecom11.363.7@eecs.nwu.edu> alexb@cfctech.cfc.com (Alex Beylin) writes: > In article <telecom11.357.2@eecs.nwu.edu> is written: >> May I suggest looking into the Northern Telecom Norstar system. It is >> the low end system in the Meridian line. (actually, I wrote this) > Couple of questions, if I may: > 1. Can this system use standard phones in addition to NT phones? Yes, with the addition of a $200 digital to analog instrument adapter. It offers some of the features available on the digital instuments, but it is kind of klunky. Not bad for modem use, but I would *not* recommend it for actual human use. It does have some bugs, but will work with V.32 modems (I am using it now for this connection). One nice feature for me, is that I live between Baltimore and Washington D.C. Consequently, I have lines that are both local to DC and B'more. I have the lines grouped into pools, such that when the ATA (Analog Terminal Adapter) goes off-hook, it get's local dial-tone. Then dialing '8' get's an available DC line, '9' get's a B'more line. BTW: This system generates nice call progress tones. They are all the standard tones heard from a real PBX or C.O. Not the cheesy tones used in the Panasonic switches. > 2. What are the limits for number of incomming lines and phone sets? Three systems are made: 6 x 16 System similar in physical design (in that it mounts flat to the wall) as the Panasonic. 3 x 8 (NEW!) May not be available yet. 8 x 24 This system is expandable to up to 128 ports, in any comination, more or less, of trunk/line. The other advantage of this system is that new software seems to be available on this system first. > 3. How is modem support handled? Can I make a "direct connect" > between an incomming line and a modem port on my PC based on hours or > can the switch detect modem on the line and automaticly transfer the call > to a pre-assigned extention? There is not a specific feature that allows this, however, you may be able to use some version of NIGHT/DAY service. Also, you could do this quite nicely from a PC with the developer's kit. Of course, you'd need $25,000 (As much as I like the switch, NT is business illiterate). > 4. What is the pricing like? The instruments are about $200 to $300 a piece new. You can get them refurbed from a number of sources. In fact, you can get the KSUs refurbed from some sources as well. New price on the 6 x 16 KSU is about $800. If you beat someone over the head, and don't want service or installation, you can get the 6 x 16 for as little as $500. Brian Cuthie brian@umbc3.umbc.edu VOICE: 301 381-1718
Jeff Sicherman <sichermn@beach.csulb.edu> (05/19/91)
In article <telecom11.370.9@eecs.nwu.edu> The Super User <jimmy@denwa.info.com> writes: > NT should be giving away the developer kit to encourage as many > applications as possible. As Brian pointed out, anyone who wants to > run these app's will have to buy NT hardware. > Northern Telecom has the right idea (opening up the architecture), but > they need to make it affordable to the very kind of companies that > have the potential to develop the killer applications that could make > their Norstar the standard key system around which all custom > applications are built. I suspect there's more to this policy than than mere technical innovation considerations. A company as large as NT is going to want to have there product associated with VAD's who have the financial, development, and marketing resources to adequately support what they sell. This often does not apply to the garage type operation. If there are problems, who do you think the customer is going to go to (or after) if the system doesnt work and the developer doesnt have the resources to deal with it or goes out of business? There is also a prestige issue of who their product is associated with and what effect this may have on sales. In this context, the high cost of the kit is intended as a barrier to those who either lack the resources or are not very serious about their ideas (and can convince others of the value). It's more of a test than a reflection of the kit's value or cost (to NT). Jeff Sicherman