"Henry E. Schaffer" <hes@ccvr1.cc.ncsu.edu> (05/26/91)
In article <telecom11.395.1@eecs.nwu.edu> TELECOM Moderator writes: X-Telecom-Digest: Volume 11, Issue 395, Message 1 of 14 > ... The first 33 rpm records began appearing late in 1948 as I > recall. Pat, I'm pretty sure that 33 rpm records started quite a bit earlier - probably in the '30s. My folks had a record player with a 33 rpm setting, and some 33 rpm records which I'm pretty sure were pre-WWII. My memory is that the modern 33 rpm LP records have a smaller groove, and that was the post-WWII innovation. This is all from distant memory. henry schaffer n c state univ [Moderator's Note: Thanks for your note. I honestly do not think there were any 33 rpm records as early as you say. Maybe someone else has the answer to this. In the next issue of the Digest on Sunday morning, we'll continue this Memorial Day theme with messages on early radio pioneers and a response to an earlier article about Marconi and Cape Cod. If you're going anywhere over the holiday, drive the other guy's car for him also if you know what's best for you. PAT]
johnl@iecc.cambridge.ma.us (John R. Levine) (05/27/91)
Western Electric had a long-standing interest in sound recordings.
During the 1930's they had a project to make ultra-hi-fi recordings
far beyond the then-standard 78 RPM records. They recorded things
like Beethoven symphonies played by famous orchestras. I've heard
transcriptions of a few and the sound is even by modern standards
excellent. I'll see if I can dig up some references.
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@iecc.cambridge.ma.us, {spdcc|ima|world}!iecc!johnl99700000 <haynes@felix.ucsc.edu> (05/27/91)
I'm looking at a book copyright 1932 (Radio Physics Course, by Ghirardi) that tells about talking movies among other things. The Vitaphone system developed by Bell Labs used approx 15-inch dia records turning at 33-1/3 rpm. Refers to Vol 7 No 3 issue of Bell Laboratories Record for more details. Must have been a gutsy way to make movies, since the sound was recorded at the same time as the filming and you couldn't edit the record. Obviously the reason for the large slow record is to make it last as long as a reel of film. While this format didn't last long in the movies it did carry over to radio broadcasting. Up until the 1950s broadcast radio stations had libraries of "transcriptions" on 15-inch 33-1/3 rpm disks. These contained all kinds of stuff: music, sound effects, historical speeches, etc. Also programs could be distributed in this way; programs not considered important enough to rate real-time wire network transmission. Some stations had recording equipment so they could record important events broadcasts on disks. I presume the 33-1/3 speed was chosen for LP records because the radio stations already had to have dual speed turntables to play the transcriptions and 78 rpm records; it would be hard to introduce yet another speed (until RCA and 45 RPM came along, but that's another story). The LP records did require a different stylus, as the transcriptions used the same wide groove that 78 rpm records used. The book says Bell Labs also developed the Movietone sound-on-film system. Oh, and my grandmother had a Western Electric sewing machine. haynes@cats.ucsc.edu haynes@ucsccats.bitnet [Moderator's Note: Well for awhile there were also experiments with records spinning at 16 7/8 rpm ... remember those? They were 'spoken word' things; i.e. plays, dramatic readings, etc. I've got an oldie here of Carl Sandburg reading his poems at 16 7/8 rpm. I guess they gave up on those by 1950 or so. I've also got a four record set of George Bernard Shaw's "Saint Joan" on 16 7/8 rpm, probably from 1950 or so. The label is RCA Victor; i.e. the dog listening to his master's voice on the big horn. PAT]
Dave Levenson <dave@westmark.westmark.com> (05/28/91)
In article <telecom11.395.1@eecs.nwu.edu>, telecom@eecs.nwu.edu (TELECOM Moderator) writes: > Most readers of telecom who know a little about the fascinating > history of AT&T know that the Western Electric subsidiary was into a > number of things besides strictly telephones, per se, as was the Bell > Labs. I saw a genuine Western Electric washing machine and dryer at an antique show a couple of years ago! The washer was electric, and contained neither a rotating drum nor a rotating agitator. It looked like a rectangular tank (with hot and cold taps to allow the user to fill it) containing a washboard and a brush. An electric motor apparently moved the brush back and forth accross the washboard, slightly below the water-level. I think the articles being washed were placed on the board and the brush was then lowered into place before the motor was started. The dryer was another machine placed next to the washer. It apparently used to dry the washed clothes by squeezing them between rubber-coated rollers. They apparently made wringers before they started making ringers! The washer and dryer were probably from the late 1800's and had the old WeCo trademark with the lightning-bolt. No mention of 'The Bell System' or AT&T. Dave Levenson Internet: dave@westmark.com Westmark, Inc. UUCP: {uunet | rutgers | att}!westmark!dave Warren, NJ, USA AT&T Mail: !westmark!dave Voice: 908 647 0900 Fax: 908 647 6857
"Chuck Bennett (919)966-1134" <UCHUCK@unc.bitnet> (05/28/91)
"Donald E. Kimberlin" <0004133373@mcimail.com> writes: > At WTSP in St. Petersburg, FL we did all those things, right > up into the late 1950's. We had two major "transcription libraries," > The World Transcription Service and the Standard Transcription > Library. Both were 33-1/3 rpm recordings on "16-inch" disks, as the > size was called. Western Electric's piece of this was evidenced on the > Standard transcriptions, which were "vertical cut," that is, the > needle action was vertical in the groove as opposed to lateral in > consumer records. There were claims that "vertical cut" was > higher-fidelity than lateral cut. > To play them back, we had "transcription heads" on the > turntables that could be switched to use either vertical-sensitive or > lateral-sensitive pickup windings. (Yes, windings ... these were > BIG, clunky, long playback arms that while very well-balanced, weighed > a pound or so it seemed. To play a warped record, we'd set a line of > lead type from the <St. Petersburg Times> composing room on top of the > playback head! Other stations had to use a 50 cent or dollar coin.) The "verticle cut" transcription was of higher fidelity for various reasons. One was that very little equalization was applied (as I recall there were only two or three curves where as lateral had two families and about three or four members in each family), another was that the disks themselves were virtually impervious to the rough treatment that was typical at a radio station (a radial scratch or abrasion was not picked up by the vertical, "hill-and-dale", tracking cartridge). The tonearm was the WEco 5A. Typically in black crinkle finish it had a five pound lead counter-weight. The cartridge was the WEco 9A also in black crinkle or natural satin finish and weighed in a 1 pound! The cartridge had a four pin, male connector that mated with the 5A arm and a thumb screw on top that secured it to the arm. These were the (I believe) very first "moving coil" cartridges which are so much in vogue in highend audio circles today. The stylus was removable/replacable and was a 3 mil spherical diamond on a short vertical shank. My dad did some of the design, engineering and testing of these devices as well as WEco's line of speakers. There is a picture of him in the anechoic chamber at Bell Labs in either Murray Hill or Whippany, NJ. Chuck Bennett INTERNET: uchuck@med.unc.edu Medical Sciences Teaching Labs BITNET: uchuck@unc CB# 7520 University of NC PHONE: 919-966-1134(w) Chapel Hill, NC 27599-7520
Scott Dorsey <kludge@grissom.larc.nasa.gov> (05/28/91)
In article <telecom11.395.1@eecs.nwu.edu> TELECOM Moderator writes: > It is still sort of a thrill to watch an old motion picture from the > 1930-40 era and see a notation in the credits saying 'sound by Western > Electric'... when did they get out of the motion picture sound > business? The late forties. They still licensed their "light valve" technology for many years to the film industry. A number of theatres in this area are still using old WE soundheads. > But of more interest to me now was Western Electric's involvement in > phonograph records. It must have been very minimal and limited to the > early days of sound recordings. > Going through my *very old* (1948-49) phonograph records and tapes I > came across "Bach on the Biggest", a recording made of the organ at > the Atlantic City (NJ) Auditorium. It was a 'complimentary/radio > station copy' provided to a station here for promotional purposes, and > the advertising material with it said it was produced "using the > latest and most modern 'sound-capture' techniques of the Western > Electric Company ..." The first 33 rpm records began appearing late in > 1948 as I recall. 33 rpm was originally used for transcription disks in the 1930's, and was quite common for professional use. The transcription disks would use 2.7 mil styli or so, like the 78 rpm recordings. Microgroove 33 rpm records didn't come out until 1949 or so. WE made a number of demo recordings, as well as some live recordings at the 1939 World's Fair which were distributed to radio stations. I am told that they did some recordings at later fairs but have never seen any. > An accompanying tape was a 'modern reproduction' of a wire recording > (anybody out there remember wire recorders? Of course! I knew some of > you would!) made many years earlier by Western Electric apparently for > promotional purposes. The wire-recording converted to 'modern magnetic > tape media' (1949, har har!) was of Henry LeMare, municipal organist > for the City of Atlantic City during the 1920's era. Don't knock 1949 magnetic tape media. I have a pair of 1950 Ampex machines that are in daily use at WCWM, and sound a hell of a lot better than any cassette deck made. Wire recording, granted, is pretty poor overall, primarily because of the lack of AC bias. > Western Electric worked with all the major movie studios back in those > days, but I didn't realize they also worked on phonograph records and > wire recordings ... or did they? Are these antiques just special > things they did for promotions, etc? Any ideas? They are probably promo recordings, but WE made a lot of promos in those days. From time to time you'll even find Vitaphone disks, which are just standard 16-inch transcription disks, wide groove, start in center records that are intended for synchronization to a film. Transcription recording started in the early thirties and every station in the thirties through the fifties had a 16" turntable to play transcriptions with, so a lot of the promo records and stuff designed for radio distribution only was made at 33 rpm. Make sure you use the right stylus to play these back; modern microgroove styli will destroy wide groove records very quickly. scott [Moderator's Note: WECo did recordings at the Century of Progess Fair in Chicago in 1933-34 also according to the late Virgil Fox in a commentary he added to one of his records. Speaking of whom, you are absolutely correct -- one hundred percent -- about the quality of the old records and tapes. A recording in my collection of Fox dates from 1946 at Columbia University: it takes the cake! It is superb, and you could never tell its age by listening to it. The giveaway is the heavy disk, and the old-fashioned way RCA Victor printed their labels. It was a 78 rpm and RCA copied it onto 33 rpm three years later. PAT]
POWERS@ibm.com (05/28/91)
I know that Western Electric produced equipment to play phonograph records; I have seen turntables they built. Around 1960, I worked as a projectionist in an old theater that had a Western Electric sound system. This included (massive cast iron) bases for the 35mm projectors and carbon arc lamps, the optical "sound head" assemblies, takeup reel assemblies, all the electronics, and the loudspeakers. The bases had mounting holes and mechanical drive for the turntables, which I found in a back room in a fit of exploration. That's right, an early form of sound movies used sound on records, and this place was equipped (originally) for both kinds of production! I don't know the speed used, but one record would have had to hold 22 minutes of sound to match the duration of a 2,000 foot reel of 35mm film. I seem to recall that the turntables were larger than 12 inches. The installation dated from around 1930. DC power was originally supplied by a battery rack that was charged during non-operating hours; this had been replaced by a motor generator set. The amplifer was capable of five (count'em!) watts. The speakers were conical horns with field coils; the small one in the projection room was still in use, but the immense horn still hanging from the stage ceiling behind the screen was no longer used (an Altec "Voice Of The Theater" unit had taken its place). The electronics was housed in black metal cabinets with Bakelite panels, and every important circuit had a meter on it (including the filament current to the sound head lamps). Audio level controls were of the multi-tap attenuator variety, with the wiper sweeping over a circle of metal buttons right on the panel. Everything was built like the proverbial brick outhouse, and the only real problems I had were with the (also massive) motors. I always wondered where their maintenance man found those old fashioned tubes with different sized pins ... but I never had one burn out in the several years I worked there. Jack Powers powers@ibm.com jackp@well.sf.ca.us Opinions, if any, are mine, if anyone's.
horwath@uunet.uu.net> (05/29/91)
> But of more interest to me now was Western Electric's involvement in > phonograph records. It must have been very minimal and limited to the > early days of sound recordings. ^^^^^^^^^^ > Going through my *very old* (1948-49) phonograph records and tapes I ^^^^^^^^^^ Pat, I think we have a slight perspective problem here on the time line as far as the history of phonograph records goes. I've got some in my collection that date back to 1920 and I thought they were NOT that old since they were pressed with recordings on *both* sides. :) Yes, I do have a CD player!! :) The following is what I recall after having looked into the history of records about fifteen years ago. I don't have any references in front of me, so this is all from memory (which is poor, I admit). The round record (as opposed to the Edison cylinder) was invented by Emile Berliner who formed the Victor Talking Machine Company to market it and the record player used to reproduce the sound. (The "correct" term for this record player, BTW, is the gramophone. The phonograph is the name of the Edison invention.) The Victor Talking Machine Company was bought up by RCA and it was RCA Victor that marketed electrical recording (late 20's) and later marketed electrical playback (early 30's). By "electrical recording", I mean direct to disk. This also refers to the consumer market -- I didn't look at the "pro" market (i.e. transcriptions for radio/movies on 12+" disks). Did WE have a hand in the development or was it RCA? Good question. A much earlier "Bell" connection was due to one of good ol' Alexander's relatives (cousin?). He took Edison's invention and improved it and finally marketed it as the graphophone. This was the device that ^^^^^^^^^^^ [Moderator's Note: Did you mean 'gramaphone'? PAT] actually used wax cylinders, instead of foil, as Edison had done. Needless to say, lawsuits followed and Bell won - his method was termed "engraving" (i.e. material, wax, is removed in the process) while Edison used "embossing". > promotional purposes. The wire-recording converted to 'modern magnetic > tape media' (1949, har har!) was of Henry LeMare, municipal organist > for the City of Atlantic City during the 1920's era. It was also > recorded at the auditorium there. LeMare would have probably recorded > it on some earlier type of media; then it went to wire, then tape. It The following will help in dating your recording. The Atlantic City organ, with a 400HP wind plant and over 30,000 pipes, is the largest pipe organ in the world. (Unfortunately, not the largest *playing* pipe organ - it is in a sad state of disrepair. That title belongs to the instrument in the chapel at West Point.) It was designed by Senator Emerson Richards and built by the Midmer-Losh company of Long Island with the contract awarded in early 1929. Built during the Great Depression, it was about 50% complete by May, 1930 and still not finished by April, 1932. Edwin Henry Lemare (1865-1934) was an English organist who moved to the USA. He was quite a virtuoso and, at one time, was the highest paid organist in the world. At various times, he was the municipal organist of San Francisco; Portland, Maine; and Chattanooga, TN. I guess this would place the recording between 1932 - 1934. Motorola C.I.D. I speak for myself, not my employer uunet!motcid!horwath [Moderator's Note: Thanks very much for the detailed accounting of LeMare and Atlantic City. Unfortunatly, its not just the organ which is in a sad state of disrepair. All of Atlantic City -- the famed boardwalk area in particular -- has become a slum, and a crime and drug-infested one at that. Sad, sad, sad ... A contact at the New York Public Library (they have all LeMare's papers in the Special Collections Department) researched this for me today and called back to say his best estimate -- based on reading some stuff in the files -- was the recording had originally been made at the dedication of the instrument in the fall, 1932. If you think a telephone central office has complex wiring and relays, you should try looking inside the console at Atlantic City, or upstairs in the pipe chambers! PAT]
John Higdon <john@zygot.ati.com> (06/03/91)
George Horwath <motcid!horwath@uunet.uu.net> writes: > finally marketed it as the graphophone. This was the device that ^^^^^^^^^^^ > [Moderator's Note: Did you mean 'gramaphone'? PAT] No, this is not a typo. Several reference works talk about the 'graphophone'. This is understandably confusing. By the way, things like this have been appearing at the end of some digests: > ^A^A^A^A Are they the result of your new 'modemphone'? John Higdon | P. O. Box 7648 | +1 408 723 1395 john@zygot.ati.com | San Jose, CA 95150 | M o o ! [Moderator's Note: The four control-A's which appeared at the end of the re-transmission of issues 410-411-412 were inadvertently forgotten. I sent the remailing from the archives copies, and the symbols there mark the end and start of each issue. Sorry. PAT]