gaarder@anarres.ithaca.ny.us (05/27/91)
A friend and I are planning to run some cable from my house to his, a distance of about 1000 feet, and are looking for advice on where to find suitable wire at minimum cost. The plan is to go underground right near the houses, and overhead through the trees in the intervening woods. We need at least two pairs carrying RS-422 data, and an extra pair or two for some sort of voice link would be very nice. I have scrounged some underground phone cable and some drop wire, but not enough yet. One possible source of cheap wire is military surplus WD-1 field telephone wire. I've been told that it is steel wire, or possibly a combination of copper and steel. Does anyone know which, and what kind of resistance per unit length the stuff has? Also, any gotchas about using wire intended for underground use overhead? Any other ideas? Thanks, Steve Gaarder gaarder@theory.tc.cornell.edu gaarder@anarres.ithaca.ny.us [Moderator's Note: For only a thousand feet, why not go underground for the whole trip? It will be less conspicuous to vandals and others, and avoid the problem of trees getting cut down and winter ice storms pulling the wire down, etc. PAT]
gaarder@anarres.ithaca.ny.us (06/01/91)
The following piece, which showed up in soc.culture.new-zealand, suggests one possible approach to my quest for a cheap way to run wire to a friend's house: > From: anorris@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Andrew Norris) > With respect to the tails about uses of no8, there was an real good > chapter in a Crump Book in which a character named 'Scratcher' had the > job of maintaining a 8 mile length of telephone line through the bush. > The PO provided him with copper wire, which he used to sew his boots and > cloths up with. The line was repaired with any junk he could lay his > hands on, including sardine cans and dog chain. But he knew what he was > doing as he confided in the central character, Bruce (?); > 'It can't be any old thing though, it has to be metal' BTW, I'm also looking for entrance blocks (lightning protectors) or sources for same. [ Pat, concerning your suggestion of going underground: A reasonable thing to suggest, since you live in the Midwest where the soil is soft and sandy. Here it's heavy clay, and, since it's through the woods, full of roots as well.] Steve Gaarder gaarder@theory.tc.cornell.edu gaarder@anarres.ithaca.ny.us [Moderator's Note: When I look at old photographs of Chicago, say from the 1900-1920 era, all I see in the sky are telephone poles and wires running everywhere. The wires criss-cross in all directions running up and down the streets, etc. And now, telephone poles, while not rare, are far less common here. In the downtown area you don't see one for blocks at a time. In the residential areas, we have poles in the alley behind the houses in many areas, but very few on the main streets. They have buried almost everything. Of course, there are offsets to this: For the past two weeks, Bell Avenue (the north/south street at the corner from where I live) has been torn up for several blocks, all the way from Roseland Cemetery north to Warren Park. Everyone is in on the act: I see trucks from People's Gas, IBT, and the Water and Sewer Works all out there every day, digging, laying new conduits, sewers, etc. They wake me at 6 AM when they start tearing up the street. PAT]
"Patton M. Turner" <pturner@eng.auburn.edu> (06/02/91)
Steve Gaarder writes: > [ Pat, concerning your suggestion of going underground: A reasonable > thing to suggest, since you live in the Midwest where the soil is soft > and sandy. Here it's heavy clay, and, since it's through the woods, > full of roots as well.] Try renting a small drop plow or trencher (ditch witch). I think I'd prefer the trencher over a vibratory plow if you think you will run into roots. > BTW, I'm also looking for entrance blocks (lightning protectors) or > sources for same. Absolutely, if I remember you are going to use the lines for data com (not RS-232 I hope, at that distance). Many serial ports use CMOS chips which are extremely sensitive to static electricity. Last month lightning damaged several serial ports on the engineering Sun network here at Auburn, even though the cable runs were fairly short (but unshelded). I think Specialized Products Corp. carries gas discharge protectors built into a DB25 connector. As far as wire, I think C-wire (drop wire) is hard to beat if you are going to use unshelded cable. It can be run overhead or plowed in the ground.
Bill Nickless <nickless@flash.ras.anl.gov> (06/03/91)
When you find the right wire and tools and get ready to do the job,
don't forget to contact the appropriate utilities so they can tell you
where the 25 kilovolt electric main is buried on your property, or the
128-fiber AT&T AT&T Long Lines trunk.
Bill Nickless nickless@andrews.edu or nickless@flash.ras.anl.gov
(708) 972-7390 or (616) 927-0982Jim.Redelfs@uunet.uu.net> (06/04/91)
Patton M. Turner wrote: > C-wire (drop wire) is hard to beat if you are going to use unshelded > cable. It can be run overhead or plowed in the ground. C Rural Wire is TOUGH stuff, but buried? I've never seen it buried in my experience or heard of doing so before. I recommend against direct burial of C Rural Wire. It is designed as an AERIAL wire (1-pr/1-line wire) and not really even as a "drop" wire. C Rural Wire is used for exceptionally LONG aerial spans whose length would cause ordinary F Service Wire (aerial drop wire) to fail at the P-clamps or break in the span. A typical C Rural Wire installation includes terminating the C Rural Wire at the pole closest to the station where it is connected with a 105 block to conventional F Service Wire for the final span to the station. Considering the scenerio: phone service wire placed through "woods" in an area of clay/compacted soil. Ordinarily, a vibratory lawn plow would do a satisfactory installation but, considering the likely encounters with numerous, substantial tree roots, a trencher would work MUCH better. If the service MUST be hung, I would probably forgo the luxury and expense of poles and simply hang the spans, with PLENTY of slack, from the existing trees. AT&T's Phoenix Works manufactures an EXCELLENT, 5-pair, jelly-filled buried service "wire". JR --- Tabby 2.2 MacNet Omaha 402-289-2899 On loan from Mrs MacWidow (1:285/14)
macy@fmsys.uucp (Macy Hallock) (06/09/91)
In article <telecom11.424.8@eecs.nwu.edu> is written: > Patton M. Turner wrote: >> C-wire (drop wire) is hard to beat if you are going to use unshelded >> cable. It can be run overhead or plowed in the ground. > C Rural Wire is TOUGH stuff, but buried? I've never seen it buried in > my experience or heard of doing so before. Listen, I've seen C-wire aerial, buried, submerged, strung on fenceposts and hung to trees and it always worked. Even used it (well a couple of strands of it) to pull a tractor out of the mud once. At one point, a large part of most distant rural cable plant of a certain telephone company I worked for was made of the stuff. (Hint: one of John Higdon's favorite phone companies, and it ain't PB) In fact, much of the stuff was ten + years old. Saw some of it taken down off poles and buried. Worked for a couple more years, too. > I recommend against direct burial of C Rural Wire. It is designed as > an AERIAL wire (1-pr/1-line wire) and not really even as a "drop" > wire. C Rural Wire is used for exceptionally LONG aerial spans whose > length would cause ordinary F Service Wire (aerial drop wire) to fail > at the P-clamps or break in the span. Quite true, but its very well made stuff, or at least it was back in 1970. > A typical C Rural Wire installation includes terminating the C Rural > Wire at the pole closest to the station where it is connected with a > 105 block to conventional F Service Wire for the final span to the > station. Also correct. Except for the stuff we lay across the fields and construction areas. Do you have any idea what C-wire can do to a tractor running a brush hog? Hint: the tractor loses... > If the service MUST be hung, I would probably forgo the luxury and > expense of poles and simply hang the spans, with PLENTY of slack, from > the existing trees. Now, that what C-wire's for! It also held the Chatham Farmer's Mutual Telephone Company together for many, many years, just this way... Most of the stuff I used and saw way back then was General Cable or Brand-Rex. > AT&T's Phoenix Works manufactures an EXCELLENT, 5-pair, jelly-filled > buried service "wire". This is true, but I like Brand-Rex's six pair or two pair buried drop, too. Of course, you could just get your ham ticket and a couple of two meter handie-talkie's (Shameless plug: the technician ticket is now available in a no-morse-code version ... and while I'm on that subject: what's your excuse for no ticket, Patrick? [grin] We need all the decent hams we can get.) Macy M. Hallock, Jr. N8OBG 216-725-4764 Home macy@fmsystm.UUCP macy@NCoast.ORG Note: macy@ncoast.org is best reply path to me. uunet!aablue!fmsystm!macy [No disclaimer, but I have no real idea what I'm saying or why I'm telling you] [Moderator's Note: The technician's ticket now available *without* the Morse Code test?? Shame ... shame on all! Anyway, some people say I am already a ham ... PAT]
Wolf PAUL <wnp@iiasa.iiasa.ac.at> (06/11/91)
> [Moderator's Note: > They have buried almost everything. > Of course, there are offsets to this: For the past two weeks, Bell > Avenue (the north/south street at the corner from where I live) has > been torn up for several blocks, all the way from Roseland Cemetery > north to Warren Park. Everyone is in on the act: I see trucks from > People's Gas, IBT, and the Water and Sewer Works all out there every > day, digging, laying new conduits, sewers, etc. They wake me at 6 AM > when they start tearing up the street. PAT] And you are really fortunate in that they are all in on the act all at once. About four years ago the footpath in front of my parent's house was dug up when they put in city water in an area which so far had individual pumps. About three years ago the path was dug up to put down Cable-TV cable. About two years ago the footpath was dug up to put down a phone cable (it had been strung on poles till then). About one year ago the path was dug up again when they put gas pipes in. About two weeks ago the path was dug up again when they put in a power line to a new subdivision down the road. Within the next year or so they will dig it up again to put down sewer pipes -- till now, everyone has their own septic tank. And in Vienna, Austria, these various utilities (except Cable-TV) are not private businesses, but departments of the federal gov't or city hall. But they cannot coordinate their schedules ... W.N.Paul, Int. Institute f. Applied Systems Analysis, A-2361 Laxenburg--Austria PHONE: +43-2236-71521-465 INTERNET: wnp@iiasa.iiasa.ac.at FAX: +43-2236-71313 UUCP: uunet!iiasa!wnp HOME: +43-2236-618514 BITNET: tuvie!iiasa!wnp@aearn.BITNET
wex@uunet.uu.net> (06/12/91)
Additional comment about burying wire (any kind): Go to your local dump (landfill), if you have one, and collect all the old discarded garden hose (leaky is ok), and run any underground wiring through that. [national electrical code insists on physical protection near ground level, but allows direct burial... (I know you were talking about Phone, but the garden hose idea applies to any...] Anyhow, the hose provides very good protection from shovels provides a conduit for pulling/replacing wire ( if you put in an extra pull wire, you can later pull something else through. (use separate hoses for AC) Hose is easier to pull up later if necessary. It is cheap, and gets some real use out of trash!! Wex
meier@uunet.uu.net> (06/13/91)
In article <telecom11.450.7@eecs.nwu.edu> mailrus!ulowell!wex@uunet. uu.net writes: [recommendation for using garden hose as conduit] > Anyhow, the hose provides very good protection from shovels provides a > conduit for pulling/replacing wire ( if you put in an extra pull wire, > you can later pull something else through. (use separate hoses for AC) > Hose is easier to pull up later if necessary. It is cheap, and gets > some real use out of trash!! I tried this, in an attempt to save some money on the special (thicker sheath) direct burial cable. It turned out that I was unable to pull the wire more than about 25 feet before it started to bind against the hose. Since I had already bought the hose, I ended up splitting the hose the full length, inserting the wire, and then taping the hose together again. It was really false economy. Next time, I would get the true direct-burial cable. Rolf Meier Mitel Corporation
Tony Harminc <TONY@mcgill1.bitnet> (06/15/91)
Rolf Meier <mitel!Software!meier@uunet.uu.net> wrote: [recommendation for using garden hose as conduit] > It turned out that I was unable to pull the wire more than about 25 > feet before it started to bind against the hose. Since I had already > bought the hose, I ended up splitting the hose the full length, > inserting the wire, and then taping the hose together again. > It was really false economy. Next time, I would get the true > direct-burial cable. What you need is wire pulling compound. It's usually gloopy yellow stuff that comes in a giant squeeze bottle or a can. You can, of course, use almost anything slippery, but grease etc. may damage the insulation over time. Tony H.
Mike Morris <morris@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us> (06/16/91)
TONY@mcgill1.bitnet (Tony Harminc) writes: > Rolf Meier <mitel!Software!meier@uunet.uu.net> wrote: > [recommendation for using garden hose as conduit] >> [story about the problems with garden hose and decision to use >> real direct burial cable next time] > What you need is wire pulling compound. It's usually gloopy yellow > stuff that comes in a giant squeeze bottle or a can. You can, of > course, use almost anything slippery, but grease etc. may damage the > insulation over time. You're speaking of Scotch "Yellow-77", sometimes referred to with other names (one of the more polite ones is "Gorilla Snot"). But please note that "almost anything slippery" may cause some serious problems. I had a very difficult time at one site where someone had used liquid dish soap as a pulling compound. We ended up having to pull the old 75-pair out with a winch on a four-wheel drive vehicle. If you need to use a pulling compound, use a real pulling compound. And by all means use a conduit large enough for the job and pull a piece of 1/8" nylon with the cable. At one job the previous contractor had pulled cotton kite string with the cable. When we went to pull a pull rope in place with the kite string we discovered it had rotted. Fortunately there was enough room in the conduit that we were able to suck a cotton ball through with a new kite string and pull the nylon rope with it (and then the new cable with a new rope). Mike Morris WA6ILQ PO Box 1130 Arcadia, CA. 91077 | All opinions must be my own since nobody pays 818-447-7052 evenings | me enough to be their mouthpiece...
"Barton F. Bruce" <Barton.Bruce@camb.com> (06/18/91)
In article <telecom11.452.6@eecs.nwu.edu>, mitel!Software!meier@ uunet.uu.net (Rolf Meier) writes: > In article <telecom11.450.7@eecs.nwu.edu> mailrus!ulowell!wex@uunet. > uu.net writes: > [recommendation for using garden hose as conduit] >> Anyhow, the hose provides very good protection from shovels provides a >> conduit for pulling/replacing wire ( if you put in an extra pull wire, > It turned out that I was unable to pull the wire more than about 25 > feet before it started to bind against the hose. Since I had already Real rubbery hose would probably be the worst. The cheap vinyl hoses would be better, if large enough. The quite inexpensive polyethylene pipe often used for buried lawn sprinklers works well and comes in very long coils -- 400' or even 1000' are easy to find. The real key to easy pulling is LOTS of good commercial wire pulling compound liberally slathered on the cable.
Irving_Wolfe@happym.wa.com (06/18/91)
I missed the original article in this thread, but I have some 700 feet of direct burial 25-pair, left over from a temporary job the local phone company did here for me until they could do the real job with 50-pair. (I had to pay for, and got stuck with, the 25-pair.) I honestly don't remember the exact price, but I think I paid 48 cents a foot, which checks with local supply houses suggested is a good price to begin with. If someone would take the whole thing and pick it up here, I'd sell it for just 30 cents a foot, assuming all this happens soon. Please get in touch with me if you're interested. I'm not interested in shipping it or selling little pieces, but I'd have a guy drive it to Seattle or Tacoma for you if you don't have a truck and want the whole thing and will pay the full 48 cents. Then I'll take the loss on the truck and driver instead of on the cable.
wex@uunet.uu.net> (06/19/91)
About old garden hose as conduit, trouble pulling wire through; I have used silicone spray and/or "pulling compound" (your local electrical supply house/electrician) when the going got rough; buy I have never had trouble with short lengths (100'). The gpstwr!merv@eecs.nwu.edu (Merv Graham) suggestion of plastic water pipe sounds fine; I was suggesting a way to reuse junque. Wex