Gordon Burditt <gordon@sneaky.lonestar.org> (06/24/91)
> Also, if you claim an emergency exists as the reason for the busy > party to break the connection when in fact there is no emergency, then > you are probably guilty of a misdeamenor crime. Likewise if an > energency *does* exist and the called party refuses to yield the line > then he is guilty of a misdemeanor crime. PAT] It's a misdemeanor for me to refuse to get off the line so I can receive a call which someone calls an emergency? (How about if I get off the line and re-establish the call, or just hang up on the "emergency"? What if my modem is using the line? Is the operator expected to speak PEP?) What is the legal definition of "emergency" when the person being called is not the police, fire department, medical personnel, repair crews for various utilities, the military, nor does this person support them in their work? My phone book says an emergency is "a situation in which property or human life is in jeopardy and the prompt summoning of aid is essential". It also talks about emergency calls being to "a fire department or police department or for medical aid or ambulance service". I had at least one relative who genuinely considered a birth announcement or acknowledgement of receipt of a package to be an emergency. A former manager considered a 5% probability that I might be needed by others working on Sunday sometime during that day to be an emergency requiring my presence immediately (a phone call if/when I'm actually needed would take too long). I'm not talking about a party line, or someone on an extension, where someone needs to call the police, fire department, or an ambulance. Nor am I objecting to a break-in on my conversation when I am talking to the police, fire department, or medical personnel, unless my call was a greater emergency. Nor will I object if the trunk I was using is needed to reach emergency services. I can't think of a reason why emergency services would need to reach me. I can't think of a single situation where a call directed to me would be an emergency. (The class of "relative hit by truck or arrested" reasons don't apply because all my relatives are out-of-state. Even then I'm not sure they qualify as emergencies. I'm not a doctor or lawyer). Gordon L. Burditt sneaky.lonestar.org!gordon [Moderator's Note: Your telephone book pretty accurately describes an 'emergency'. Examples perhaps you could understand: Your neighbor's phone is out of order; they knock on your door and ask you to call the Fire Department. You refuse, because your single line is engaged on another call. You are at work using the phone and your landlord or neighbor calls to say YOUR house caught fire. You are using a pay phone on the street corner. There is an autombile accident and one of the victoims asks you to get off the phone so they can call the police or ambulance. Good enough examples for you? PAT]
"John R. Covert 25-Jun-1991 0727" <covert@covert.enet.dec.com> (06/25/91)
I think Patrick is making laws up again. My phone book says: "State law requires you to yield a party line immediately when told the line is needed for an emergency." Here Massachusetts is referred to. A phone book from neighboring New Hampshire says: "Whoever shall willfully refuse to yield the use of a telephone party line for giving of a fire alarm or emergency call ..." My recollection in every other state is that this only applies to party lines. If the Moderator can provide an example where this applies to single-party service, I would like to see it. john Moderator's Note: IBT phone books used to use the phrase 'party-line' in discussing yeilding of the line in the event of an emergency. Then for a couple years the phrase was 'telephone facilities you share with others', which I assume could mean party lines or extension phones in your home, or I presume a pay phone on the corner you 'share' with others who need to use it. Then they discontinued saying anything about it except to note in the section on 'how and when to use 911' where they noted it was a crime to lodge a phalse report and that 'the sense of the Illinois legislature is that public policy dictates yeilding telephone lines when requested to do so in the event of an emergency communication.' Now the past couple years, nothing is said either way. PAT]
S M Krieger <smk@attunix.att.com> (06/25/91)
> [Moderator's Note: Your telephone book pretty accurately describes an > 'emergency'. Examples perhaps you could understand: Your neighbor's > phone is out of order; they knock on your door and ask you to call the > Fire Department. You refuse, because your single line is engaged on > another call. You are at work using the phone and your landlord or > neighbor calls to say YOUR house caught fire. You are using a pay > phone on the street corner. There is an autombile accident and one of > the victims asks you to get off the phone so they can call the police > or ambulance. Good enough examples for you? PAT] Is this stretching the point a bit? As I used to read the "emergency" rule, it seemed to be intended for party-line service. When/how was it extended to single line service or public phones? Stan Krieger All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even AT&T UNIX System Laboratories if related to my employment, are my own and Summit, NJ do not represent any public or private smk@usl.com policies of my employer.
Ed_Greenberg@3mail.3com.com (06/25/91)
Patrick states that you are required to relinquish your private non- party telephone in an emergency. He cites the example of a neighbor knocking on your door and demanding that you call the fire department on his behalf. Let's leave aside the callousness required to refuse. I find nothing in the San Jose/Santa Clara white pages backing this up, at least for California. What I do find is this: WARNING -- Give Up Your Party Line in an Emergency California Penal Code section 384 makes it a misdemeanor for any person to willfully refuse to immediately relinquish a telephone party line when informed that such line is needed for an emergency call to a fire department or police department or for medical aid or ambulance service. Also, any person who shall secure the use of a telephone party line by falsely stating that such line is needed for an emergency call, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. "Emergency" means "a situation in which property or human life is in jeopardy and the prompt summoning of aid is essential." I don't see where, under THIS statute, I am required to involve myself in a neighbor's fire or medical emergency. Not that I'm such a nasty person that I would refuse. Further, I can't see where I am required by THIS statute to give up my line when an operator breaks in, although, again, I can't imagine refusing.
Gordon Burditt <gordon@sneaky.lonestar.org> (06/26/91)
The original start of this thread involved a charge for an operator break-in on an ongoing call, so one party could receive another emergency or non-emergency call. The Moderator noted that it was illegal to refuse to yield the line to RECEIVE an emergency call (or let someone make one). I claim that an 'emergency call' directed TO ME, a person who does not work for emergency services, can never happen because an emergency call is directed to emergency services, by both legal definition and common sense. (When was the last time someone was in an automobile accident and needed an emergency port of UNIX to a new platform? How about the last time a building was on fire and the fire department needed the root password to put out the fire?) The only people a law against the CALLED party failing to release the line for an emergency call would affect would be the police, fire department, ambulance services, etc. If they are not the (intended) called party, IT'S NOT AN EMERGENCY. > [Moderator's Note: Your telephone book pretty accurately describes an > 'emergency'. Examples perhaps you could understand: Your neighbor's > phone is out of order; they knock on your door and ask you to call the > Fire Department. You refuse, because your single line is engaged on > another call. This does not involve a call TO ME. Nor does it involve an operator break-in. (And if I refused in these circumstances, I deserve punishment). > You are at work using the phone and your landlord or > neighbor calls to say YOUR house caught fire. This is not an emergency (unless I'm working at the fire department). An emergency is a situation where human life or property is in danger and prompt summoning of aid is essential. Not 'prompt notification of the owner'. Not 'prompt notification of the next of kin'. Not 'prompt claim processing from the injured's insurance company'. Not 'prompt identification of the injured/dead bodies'. Not 'prompt payment for medical services'. Not 'prompt signing of legal forms'. > You are using a pay > phone on the street corner. There is an autombile accident and one of > the victoims asks you to get off the phone so they can call the police > or ambulance. This does not involve a call TO ME. Nor does it involve an operator break-in. The situation I am trying to address involves a break-in for a call directed TO ME, not to emergency services. Gordon L. Burditt sneaky.lonestar.org!gordon
carroll@cs.washington.edu> (06/27/91)
In article <telecom11.489.2@eecs.nwu.edu> covert@covert.enet.dec.com (John R. Covert 25-Jun-1991 0727) writes: > I think Patrick is making laws up again. I would agree that from time to time Pat cites Illinois law as if we all lived in Illinois. It's important, especially with respect to such a field as telecom in the United States, to differentiate between those areas governed by federal law and those controlled (or perhaps not controlled) by the individual states. That said, I'll admit that I would not want to be called on to handle the questions that he does a pretty good job with, and that he has a much better command of Illinois law than I was able to acquire during the four years I was there. I never did figure out why I would need one of those bail bond cards, or why it was so easy to get a fake drivers' license. > My phone book says: "State law requires you to yield a party line > immediately when told the line is needed for an emergency." Here > Massachusetts is referred to. A phone book from neighboring New > Hampshire says: "Whoever shall willfully refuse to yield the use of a > telephone party line for giving of a fire alarm or emergency call ..." > My recollection in every other state is that this only applies to > party lines. This was the case in Indiana too. I'm not sure that such a law exists in Washington State. Jeff Carroll carroll@ssc-vax.boeing.com
Carl Moore (VLD/VMB) <cmoore@brl.mil> (06/27/91)
(Yes, I notice the example of "neighbor knocking on your door and demanding that you call the fire department on his behalf".) Do not admit people who ask to use your phone, especially if you do not know them, because this can be used as an excuse by a criminal to get into your premises. Instead, offer to make the call yourself.
Greg Andrews <gandrews@netcom.com> (06/30/91)
In article <telecom11.496.4@eecs.nwu.edu> gordon@sneaky.lonestar.org (Gordon Burditt) writes: > The original start of this thread involved a charge for an operator > break-in on an ongoing call, so one party could receive another > emergency or non-emergency call. The Moderator noted that it was > illegal to refuse to yield the line to RECEIVE an emergency call (or > let someone make one). I claim that an 'emergency call' directed TO > ME, a person who does not work for emergency services, can never > happen because an emergency call is directed to emergency services, by > both legal definition and common sense. (When was the last time > someone was in an automobile accident and needed an emergency port of > UNIX to a new platform? How about the last time a building was on > fire and the fire department needed the root password to put out the > fire?) How about a call from the hospital informing you that your spouse was in a serious automobile accident, is at the hospital in critical condition, and could die within the hour? Or a call that your sibling, who has had a long history of severe depression, is currently talking with the suicide prevention hotline. There is a very real chance that your sibling will attempt suicide if you don't talk with them on the phone, or go over to their house. Are you saying that you do NOT want to receive a call notifying you of these kind of events? That the need to get hold of you does NOT constitute an emergency situation? That the operator should wait until you finish chatting with Aunt Edna before calling you? Of the two examples I cited, the first is merely hypothetical, the second was a call I overheard on a local radio talk show. A woman was discussing with the talk show host (a therapist) how her brother's suicidal tendencies were affecting her life, when the operator broke in and asked her to hang up so the suicide prevention hotline could contact her. Both of these situations are ones that I would certainly consider an emergency. I'm not saying that I would be called upon to respond to a fire or automobile accident, but that the need to contact me regarding the imminence of death to my immediate family DOES constitute an emergency. Greg Andrews | UUCP: {apple,amdahl,claris}!netcom!gandrews | Internet: gandrews@netcom.COM
"Patton M. Turner" <pturner@eng.auburn.edu> (06/30/91)
Gordon Burditt <gordon@sneaky.lonestar.org> writes: > I claim that an 'emergency call' directed TO ME, a person who does > not work for emergency services, can never happen because an > emergency call is directed to emergency services, by both legal > definition and common sense. I disagree. Several years ago there was a wildfire near some property my family owns. I happened to drive by soon after the fire started. A friend of mine had a farm almost across the road from the fire. I intended to borrow his tractor and help put the fire out, but he had removed the key from the ignition. I open a ped containing the drop to his barn, clipped my test set on the C wire, and called his house. The line was busy, so I asked the operator to break in on the line. His wife told me were the spare key was hidden, and I got the tractor. I attached a rear blade to the tractor and got to the fire several minutes before the local fire department. Two other tractors, myself and about 20 others put the fire out in about an hour, but not before it burned a barn down. It wasn't until after the fire was out that the Alabama Forestry Commission showed up with their tractor-plow. Several years ago (1987 I think) a Sheriff in Dolmite, AL tried to serve a warrent on Frank Camper who ran a mercinary traning camp. Mr. Camper fled into wood shortly before their arrival, so the sheriff formed a posse of local turkey hunters, who tracked him down in a few hours and arrested him. Living in rural Alabama, events such as this aren't all that unusual. I've known a number of people not affilated with emergency services to be called in an emergency including SCUBA divers, pilots, boat and four wheel drive owners, hams, contractors, hunters, etc. The case could also be made for emergency calls to plant managers and engineers, personel employed in critical industries such as power, telephone, and gas companies, or people who owned equipiment or possed knowledge useful to emergency services personel. Pat Turner KB4GRZ pturner@eng.auburn