mojo@kepler.UUCP (Morris Jones) (02/01/86)
I've been trying to send mail to people making inappropriate postings
in net.sources -- particularly for things that belong in net.wanted.sources
or net.bugs. But in several weeks (months?) since the discussion here
and example form letter from Spaf, if anything net.sources looks worse
than ever.
Should I give up? Does it matter? If nobody else cares, there's not
much point in bothering the poor uninformed suckers any more.
--
Mojo
... Morris Jones, MicroPro Product Development
{lll-crg,ptsfa,dual,well,pyramid}!micropro!kepler!mojocampbell@maynard.UUCP (Larry Campbell) (02/03/86)
> I've been trying to send mail to people making inappropriate postings > in net.sources -- particularly for things that belong in net.wanted.sources > or net.bugs. But in several weeks (months?) since the discussion here > and example form letter from Spaf, if anything net.sources looks worse > than ever. > > Should I give up? Does it matter? If nobody else cares, there's not > much point in bothering the poor uninformed suckers any more. > -- > Mojo > ... Morris Jones, MicroPro Product Development > {lll-crg,ptsfa,dual,well,pyramid}!micropro!kepler!mojo I also have been sending a version (slightly softened in tone) of Spaf's form letter to net.sources abusers. I've sent out a lot of copies in the last two weeks! For what it's worth, MoJo, keep it up. Perhaps if we could just get 10 or 20 or even 100 people to do likewise, net.sources would get cleaned up. -- Larry Campbell The Boston Software Works, Inc. ARPA: maynard.UUCP:campbell@harvard.ARPA 120 Fulton Street UUCP: {harvard,cbosgd}!wjh12!maynard!campbell Boston MA 02109
phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) (02/05/86)
In article <247@maynard.UUCP> campbell@maynard.UUCP (Larry Campbell) writes: >> I've been trying to send mail to people making inappropriate postings >> in net.sources -- particularly for things that belong in net.wanted.sources >> or net.bugs. But in several weeks (months?) since the discussion here >> and example form letter from Spaf, if anything net.sources looks worse >> than ever. >> >> Should I give up? Does it matter? If nobody else cares, there's not >> much point in bothering the poor uninformed suckers any more. > >I also have been sending a version (slightly softened in tone) of Spaf's >form letter to net.sources abusers. I've sent out a lot of copies in the >last two weeks! For what it's worth, MoJo, keep it up. Perhaps if we >could just get 10 or 20 or even 100 people to do likewise, net.sources >would get cleaned up. Better yet, let's KILL net.sources and use mod.sources. Remember the TVX disaster? This is bound to keep happening as netnews novices decide to share their programs if we keep net.sources around. It's the same mistakes over and over: 1) articles too big 2) articles which get eaten, followed by four dozen requests for reposting IN NET.SOURCES. As for those that don't get mod groups: get it fixed! You'll probably get more reliable news out of it, since you'll probably have to upgrade news software. And don't be scared about upgrading, 2.10.3 drops in really easily. -- If you are seen fixing something, you will be asked to fix it every time it breaks from then on. Phil Ngai +1 408 749 5720 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.dec.com
stu@jpusa1.UUCP (Stu Heiss) (02/05/86)
In article <9177@amdcad.UUCP> phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) writes: >In article <247@maynard.UUCP> campbell@maynard.UUCP (Larry Campbell) writes: >>> I've been trying to send mail to people making inappropriate postings >>> Should I give up? Does it matter? If nobody else cares, there's not >>I also have been sending a version (slightly softened in tone) of Spaf's >>form letter to net.sources abusers. I've sent out a lot of copies in the >Better yet, let's KILL net.sources and use mod.sources. Remember the >TVX disaster? This is bound to keep happening as netnews novices >decide to share their programs if we keep net.sources around. It's the >same mistakes over and over: 1) articles too big 2) articles which >get eaten, followed by four dozen requests for reposting IN NET.SOURCES. > >As for those that don't get mod groups: get it fixed! You'll probably We've all seen net.sources go thru ups and downs, but let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Education is the key and a firm note undoubtedly makes an impression. I once posted a request for something to net.sources, got a reprimand from someone, and have never done it since. The problem with education is that a separate letter to every abuser/naive-user is a pain. If someone who really cared would post a short article giving tips on what should go to mod.sources, how big an article shouldn't be, where to post requests, etc. once a month or so, things might clean up all by themselves. Anybody want the job? BTW, satalite sites can't always get everything they want, so mod.sources-only is going to bite a bunch of sites. I really do think they serve different purposes anyway, but that's just my opinion. -- Stu Heiss {ihnp4!jpusa1!stu}
tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) (02/05/86)
Hey guys, when you send out a form letter complaining about a posting in net.sources, how about including the subject line from the posting? I recently got such a form letter, and I haven't a clue as to what it was about! From the references line I could get the article ID, but that article was long gone from my machine when I received the complaint. -- Tim Smith sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim || ima!ism780!tim || ihnp4!cithep!tim
phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) (02/08/86)
In article <122@jpusa1.UUCP> stu@jpusa1.UUCP (Stu Heiss) writes: >We've all seen net.sources go thru ups and downs, but let's not throw >out the baby with the bath water. What are you talking about? What benefit does net.sources provide over mod.sources for sites with enough commitment to the net to run current software? > Education is the key and a firm note undoubtedly makes an impression. Yes, but who will bell the cat. It's easy for you to advocate a different solution and commit someone else's time but I don't see you volunteering to spend your time on it. -- Real men don't have answering machines. Phil Ngai +1 408 749 5720 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.dec.com
loverso@sunybcs.UUCP (John Robert LoVerso) (02/08/86)
After not having time to bother with news (other than to keep it running)
for the last 2 months, I finally decided to go thru my news spools. I have
archived all the traffic in {mod,net}.sources since August. My purpose
was to see if I missed anything *good*. Well, going thru mod.sources took
little time, and I made links to about 40% of the articles. Going thru
net.sources was a different story - it took 5 times as long and I made links
to about 20 articles.
Mod.sources works. net.sources doesnt. So, can't we just get rid of it?avolio@decuac.UUCP (Frederick M. Avolio) (02/08/86)
In article <122@jpusa1.UUCP>, stu@jpusa1.UUCP writes: > We've all seen net.sources go thru ups and downs, but let's not throw > out the baby with the bath water. Education is the key ... > ... If someone who really cared would post > a short article giving tips on what should go to mod.sources, how big > an article shouldn't be, where to post requests, etc. once a month or > so, things might clean up all by themselves. Anybody want the job? In mod.newslists and net.announce.newusers I find the following: Subject: Introduction to net.announce Subject: Rules for posting to Usenet Subject: Introduction to posting to net.general Subject: A Primer on How to Work With the Usenet Community Subject: Hints on writing style for Usenet Subject: Answers to Frequently Asked Questions Subject: List of Active Newsgroups Subject: List of Moderators In each mod group, such as mod.sources, rules are posted periodically. The information is there. There is no way to force people to read it. That's one reason a moderated source group is better than a free-for-all. Requests for sources would be sent back with a pointer to net.wanted.sources. Bug reports would go to the proper group. And so on. If site news administrators would see that people were referred to the proper reading before they started using news software there might be fewer postings of comments into net.sources and lost earring notes into net.general. (Or an individual posting address changes every time he crosses the street! Boy he must get a lot of mail from all over the world...) -- Fred @ DEC Ultrix Applications Center {decvax,seismo,cbosgd}!decuac!avolio
laura@hoptoad.uucp (Laura Creighton) (02/09/86)
In article <9283@amdcad.UUCP> phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) writes: >What are you talking about? What benefit does net.sources provide >over mod.sources for sites with enough commitment to the net to >run current software? I *have* current software (2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta). This morning John Gilmore tried to post a followup (using the followup command in vnews) to mod.computers.workstations answering somebody's question about workstations. It dropped on the floor. This is one problem with the mod groups -- even with the current software, they don't work. You can't mail replies to the originator either (in many mod groups); the return address is wrong. -- Laura Creighton ihnp4!hoptoad!laura hoptoad!laura@lll-crg.arpa
cjsgro@watdragon.UUCP (Carlo Sgro) (02/09/86)
In article <811@decuac.UUCP> avolio@decuac.UUCP (Frederick M. Avolio) writes: >In article <122@jpusa1.UUCP>, stu@jpusa1.UUCP writes: >> ... If someone who really cared would post >> a short article giving tips on what should go to mod.sources, ... > >In mod.newslists and net.announce.newusers I find the following: > << list of net.announce.newusers postings >> > >In each mod group, such as mod.sources, rules are posted periodically. >The information is there. There is no way to force people to read it. Maybe one of the reasons that they are not read has to do with the (probable) behaviour of new net users when confronted with the volumes of news that exist when they read news for the first time. After all, there is nothing that is more non-conducive to reading news than finding out that there are hundreds (or thousands) of articles unread in a newsgroup. I know that, upon starting on a new system and reading news, the only keys that I hit are 'u' (in the case of groups that I am uninterested in) and 'c' followed by 'y' (in the case of groups that I am interested in). It doesn't pay to do *any* news reading on an initial try. Thus, I propose the following change to the next version of rn: - Make it illegal to use the 'u' to unsubscribe from 'special' newsgroups. The concept of 'special' would be defined by the system administrator at each individual site. Groups that could fall under this category could be net.announce.newuser and net.news.group. This would *only* prevent mindless unsubscribing; the freedom of choice to go into your .newsrc and delete it manually would still be there. Similarly, the use of 'c' to clear 'special' newsgroups would also be illegal. The definition of 'special' for this function would probably be limited to low volume newsgroups (since it is plausible that there could be hundreds of postings in something like net.news.group). Another option for the limiting of 'c' would be to have three options when it asks you to verify your choice: 'n' means "no, I change my mind", 'y' means "clear this newsgroup if it is *not* a special newsgroup", 's' means "clear this newsgroup if it *is* a special newsgroup". This would prevent mindless clearing of important newsgroups (since people would still be going 'cy' mindlessly) but enable the user to clear a special newsgroup if he/she really wanted. -- Carlo Sgro ...![ihnp4||decvax||allegra||clyde||utzoo]!watmath!watdragon!cjsgro "ihnp4 Express: Overnight to the USA or you don't pay!"
phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) (02/10/86)
In article <503@hoptoad.uucp> laura@hoptoad.uucp (Laura Creighton) writes: >In article <9283@amdcad.UUCP> phil@amdcad.UUCP (Phil Ngai) writes: >>What are you talking about? What benefit does net.sources provide >>over mod.sources for sites with enough commitment to the net to >>run current software? > >I *have* current software (2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta). This morning >John Gilmore tried to post a followup (using the followup command in >vnews) to mod.computers.workstations answering somebody's question >about workstations. It dropped on the floor. There are certainly problems with some mod groups. However, it is not sensible to lump all the problems together in one group. mod.computers.workstations (may Erik Fair have to type that 10,000 times) for example, is gatewayed from an Internet mailing list and all the bugs associated with that don't seem to have been worked out. Mod.sources is different. It is a real USENET group which originates from a USENET site. No funny Internet stuff to deal with. My proposal is to kill net.sources. Let's stick to the question of whether there are any major problems with mod.sources if people care enough about their news to run current software. -- Real men don't have answering machines. Phil Ngai +1 408 749 5720 UUCP: {ucbvax,decwrl,ihnp4,allegra}!amdcad!phil ARPA: amdcad!phil@decwrl.dec.com
thomas@utah-gr.UUCP (Spencer W. Thomas) (02/11/86)
In article <503@hoptoad.uucp> laura@hoptoad.uucp (Laura Creighton) writes: >I *have* current software (2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta). This morning >John Gilmore tried to post a followup (using the followup command in >vnews) to mod.computers.workstations answering somebody's question >about workstations. It dropped on the floor. I had this problem, until I realized that I was using an old version of Pnews (with rn). When I upgraded to the new Pnews, my posting to a mod.group worked just fine. Of course, you have to keep your moderators file up to date. -- =Spencer ({ihnp4,decvax}!utah-cs!thomas, thomas@utah-cs.ARPA)
sob@soma.UUCP (Stan Barber) (02/12/86)
In article <503@hoptoad.uucp> laura@hoptoad.uucp (Laura Creighton) writes: >I *have* current software (2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta). This morning >John Gilmore tried to post a followup (using the followup command in >vnews) to mod.computers.workstations answering somebody's question >about workstations. It dropped on the floor. This is one problem with >the mod groups -- even with the current software, they don't work. You >can't mail replies to the originator either (in many mod groups); the >return address is wrong. Who or what is the originator? If you mean the moderator, then the problem lies in your mailer or your moderators file, not in the software. If you mean the person who sent the file to the moderator, and the file is not digested (as mod.sources is done), the news software cannot tell which From: line to use. Perhaps if mod.sources was put into a pseudo-digest format, this problem would be avoided. -- Stan uucp:{shell,rice,drilltech}!soma!sob Opinions expressed Olan ARPA:sob@rice.arpa here are ONLY mine & Barber CIS:71565,623 BBS:(713)660-9262 noone else's.
warren@pluto.UUCP (Warren Burstein) (02/13/86)
> >> ... If someone who really cared would post > >> a short article giving tips on what should go to mod.sources, ... > > > >In each mod group, such as mod.sources, rules are posted periodically. > >The information is there. There is no way to force people to read it. > > Maybe one of the reasons that they are not read has to do with the (probable) > behaviour of new net users when confronted with the volumes of news that > exist when they read news for the first time... > > Thus, I propose the following change to the next version of rn: > - Make it illegal to use the 'u' to unsubscribe from 'special' newsgroups. > The concept of 'special' would be defined by the system administrator at > each individual site. Groups that could fall under this category could > be net.announce.newuser and net.news.group. This would *only* prevent > mindless unsubscribing; the freedom of choice to go into your .newsrc > and delete it manually would still be there.... How about a message "this group is of vital importance, do you *really* want to unsubscribe?" instead. Changes should be made to readnews, vnews, and notes, too.
rb@ccivax.UUCP (rex ballard) (02/15/86)
One suggestion. Recycle net.announce.newusers and mod.newslists and other pertenent 'new user' information. Even a moderately experienced reader can forget some of the 'niceties' and a 'new user' doesn't even know what he is reading when those messages come up the first time. A little 'tickler' in these lists about once a month should do it.