davis@pacific.pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu ("John E. Davis") (07/05/90)
Hi,
I used to use sun3/sun4 work stations. But now our department switched to
ds3100's. In retrospect, most people who use the ds3100 regret the change.
The main problem is the terrible display. For some reason, the display
flickers and quite honestly after about two minutes I get a headache. I know
other people who refuse to use the 3100's for this same reason.
However, I hear alot of people talking about the 3100's on this newsgroup
and others and no one complains about the crappy displays. Why? Is there a
fix for this that we don't know about?
Thanks,
--
--John
bitnet: davis@ohstpy
internet: davis@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edusmith@clion4.enet.dec.com (Joe Smith) (07/06/90)
>> I used to use sun3/sun4 work stations. But now our department switched to >>ds3100's. In retrospect, most people who use the ds3100 regret the change. >>The main problem is the terrible display. For some reason, the display >>flickers and quite honestly after about two minutes I get a headache. I know >>other people who refuse to use the 3100's for this same reason. What model monitors do you have, and what sort of color scheme? I use DEC's 16" Trinitron and I love it. I have also used our old 15" VR160 and it had some serious problems in my opinion (NOT DEC's opinion mind you, just mine). The only problems I've had with the VR29x-xx monitor was due to the monitors being too close and the scan lines would appear on each screen which acted like a flicker... Joe
lee@quincy.cs.umass.edu (Peter Lee) (07/06/90)
In article <DAVIS.90Jul5122923@pacific.pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu> davis@pacific.pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu ("John E. Davis") writes: Hi, I used to use sun3/sun4 work stations. But now our department switched to ds3100's. In retrospect, most people who use the ds3100 regret the change. The main problem is the terrible display. For some reason, the display flickers and quite honestly after about two minutes I get a headache. I know other people who refuse to use the 3100's for this same reason. However, I hear alot of people talking about the 3100's on this newsgroup and others and no one complains about the crappy displays. Why? Is there a fix for this that we don't know about? I think "crappy" is a definite overstatement -- in many ways I prefer the DS3100 display, but they do have a lower refresh rate: 60 Hz, in fact -- the same as the rate at which neon lights flicker. That means that if you have neon lights on, you can get some serious interference between them and the monitor that can potentially lead to headaches. You might try using incandescent lights (or no lights at all) as an experiment -- do your headaches go away then? Thanks, -- --John bitnet: davis@ohstpy internet: davis@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu -- |- Peter E. Lee, Staff Assistant -| | Software Development Lab at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst | | lee@cs.umass.edu or Fuligin@umass.bitnet or (413) 549-6366 | |_ "Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: A Growing Excited Company" _|
connie@psych.Stanford.EDU (Constance Stillinger) (07/06/90)
Me too! The display is really fuzzy. I do wish I'd got a Sun, because I have to strictly limit the amount of time I spend at my monitor. Does anyone know if there are other monitors available out there that provide a better display for a ds3100? Constance Stillinger connie@psych.stanford.edu (Now ass't prof. at Northwestern Univ.) -------
envbvs@epb2.lbl.gov (Brian V. Smith) (07/06/90)
In article <LEE.90Jul5152350@quincy.cs.umass.edu>, lee@quincy.cs.umass.edu (Peter Lee) writes: |> I think "crappy" is a definite overstatement -- in many ways I prefer |> the DS3100 display, but they do have a lower refresh rate: 60 Hz, in fact -- |> the same as the rate at which neon lights flicker. That means that if you |> have neon lights on, you can get some serious interference between them and |> the monitor that can potentially lead to headaches. You might try using |> incandescent lights (or no lights at all) as an experiment -- do your |> headaches go away then? Perhaps you mean fluorescent lights (not neon)? The reason that many (all, in the past) crts use 60Hz refresh rate is to CANCEL the effect of any interference caused by fluorescent lights. If the refresh rate is different than that of the lights, then you get beat frequencies of the difference of the two rolling down your monitor. The monitors that use 70Hz rates look better not because of (lack of) interference with lights, but just because the image stays (persists) longer. _____________________________________ Brian V. Smith (bvsmith@lbl.gov) Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory I don't speak for LBL, these non-opinions are all mine.
KSpagnol@massey.ac.nz (Ken Spagnolo) (07/06/90)
All of our 3100s came with VR262 monitors. They've given us no flicker problems at all. -- Ken Spagnolo - Systems Programmer, Postmaster, Usenet Administrator, etc. Computer Centre, Massey University, Palmerston North, New Zealand K.Spagnolo@massey.ac.nz Phone: +64-63-69099 x8587 New Zealand = GMT+12
price@wsl.dec.com (Chuck Price) (07/06/90)
In article <DAVIS.90Jul5122923@pacific.pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu>, davis@pacific.pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu ("John E. Davis") writes: |> Hi, |> |> I used to use sun3/sun4 work stations. But now our department switched to |> ds3100's. In retrospect, most people who use the ds3100 regret the change. |> The main problem is the terrible display. For some reason, the display |> flickers and quite honestly after about two minutes I get a headache. I know |> other people who refuse to use the 3100's for this same reason. |> |> However, I hear alot of people talking about the 3100's on this newsgroup |> and others and no one complains about the crappy displays. Why? Is there a |> fix for this that we don't know about? |> |> Thanks, |> -- |> --John |> |> bitnet: davis@ohstpy |> internet: davis@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu Usually flicker results from using flourescent lights in your work area. The frequency of the lights "beats" against the frequency of the monitor refresh. This problem is not specific to DECstations. You just happened upon a combination of frequencies that don't work very well. This complaint has been voiced for just about every workstation in existence. You have several options: 1) Reduce the intensity of light at your workarea. Many people remove some of the flourescent tubes around their workstations. 2) Light your workarea with incandescent lights. This is why you see many workstation users with incandescent desk lamps, and why many hardware vendor showrooms are lit with incandescent lights. 3) Switch to a different type of monitor. Digital offers Sony Trinitron and other monitors. I personally like the trinitron, although I currently use the older 15" color monitor with no problem (I have reduced lighting in my office). -chuck
shoop@spcssi.uucp (Dan Shoop --- `The reason for time is so everything doesn't happen all at once') (07/06/90)
In article <DAVIS.90Jul5122923@pacific.pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu>, davis@pacific.pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu ("John E. Davis") writes: > I used to use sun3/sun4 work stations. But now our department switched to > ds3100's. In retrospect, most people who use the ds3100 regret the change. > The main problem is the terrible display. For some reason, the display > flickers and quite honestly after about two minutes I get a headache. I know > other people who refuse to use the 3100's for this same reason. > > However, I hear alot of people talking about the 3100's on this newsgroup > and others and no one complains about the crappy displays. Why? Is there a > fix for this that we don't know about? > I ordered a VS3100 with the Sony monitor (16") (same as used on the Sun) because I thought the other ones were sub-optimal. Very crisp, true colors, et cetera. I can only assume that you can get them for the DS3100's too. A 19" version, with higher resolution, is now available as an SPX option, but I don't think its made it to the DECstation world yet. As a suggestion to your problem, the flicker is more noticable for lighter colors. My suggestion (which seem s to work) is to use a darker ones for the backgrounds. It doesn't hurt the eyes as much since the flicker is less noticable. -- ================================================================================ Dan Shoop UUNET: ...uunet!spcssi!shoop Manager of Systems Support Internet: shoop@spcssi.sequor.com Security Pacific Software Services AT&Tnet: 212.425.0200 The Sequor Group ICBMnet: 40 45 N / 73 30 W ================================================================================ Your standard disclaimer here. Nuke 'um 'til they glow, then shoot 'um in the dark.
chittamu@dino.cs.umass.edu (Satish Chittamuru) (07/06/90)
In article <6118@helios.ee.lbl.gov> envbvs@epb2.lbl.gov (Brian V. Smith) writes:
Perhaps you mean fluorescent lights (not neon)? The reason that many
(all, in the past) crts use 60Hz refresh rate is to CANCEL the effect of
any interference caused by fluorescent lights. If the refresh rate is
different than that of the lights, then you get beat frequencies of the
difference of the two rolling down your monitor.
That is true. If the frequencies are different, then you do get a beat
frequency. But even if the frequencies are the same, but are out of
phase, then too you would get a flicker. By itself it may not be
noticeable, but when you combine it with the fact that a CRT blanks
the screen on a vertical retrace, that could be significant. That
could be reason for the noticeable flicker.
Any comments on that?
--
-Satish K. Chittamuru
chittamu@cs.umass.edu Software Development Lab.
chittamu@umass.bitnet Dept. of Computer & Info. Sciences
University of Massachusetts
Amherst, MA 01002
===
God is real, unless cast to an integer.dbb@riscy.dec.com (Dave Barrett) (07/07/90)
In article <1157@psych.stanford.edu> connie@psych.UUCP (Constance Stillinger) writes: > >Me too! The display is really fuzzy. I do wish I'd got a Sun, >because I have to strictly limit the amount of time I spend at >my monitor. > >Does anyone know if there are other monitors available out there >that provide a better display for a ds3100? > If your monitor appears fuzzy or out of focus, please call your local Customer Service (Field Service) office. They will be able to re-focus your monitor, or replace it with a new one. David Barrett New York ULTRIX Resource Center dbb@riscy.enet.dec.com ..!decwrl!riscy.enet!dbb
jac@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Gordon Jacobs) (07/07/90)
In article <413@arkham.enet.dec.com> smith@clion4.enet.dec.com (Joe Smith) writes: >>> I used to use sun3/sun4 work stations. But now our department >switched to >>>ds3100's. In retrospect, most people who use the ds3100 regret the change. >>>The main problem is the terrible display. For some reason, the display >>>flickers and quite honestly after about two minutes I get a headache. I know >>>other people who refuse to use the 3100's for this same reason. > > >What model monitors do you have, and what sort of color scheme? I use >DEC's 16" Trinitron >and I love it. I have also used our old 15" VR160 and it had some >serious problems in my opinion .... >Joe I have the same experience. My VR160 did not focus well (evenly) and caused eye strain. The new Sony monitors are fantastic. Much better color saturation, brightness, and focus, as well as a flatter screen. I remember some postings in this newsgroup a while back about snow or flicker problems, but I thought it was fixed by a hardware swap of the main board or frame buffer. It is not a characteristic problem of all 3100's by any means. GJ ........................................................................... ........................................................................... ...........................................................................
andy@frisbee.eng.ufl.edu (Andy Wilcox) (07/07/90)
In article <CHITTAMU.90Jul6102850@dino.cs.umass.edu>, chittamu@dino.cs.umass.edu (Satish Chittamuru) writes: |>But even if the frequencies are the same, but are out of |>phase, then too you would get a flicker. By itself it may not be |>noticeable, but when you combine it with the fact that a CRT blanks |>the screen on a vertical retrace, that could be significant. That |>could be reason for the noticeable flicker. |> |>Any comments on that? My .02: I use both a color and monochrome ds3100 regularly. The problem isn't really noticable on the trinitron, but I can't use the monochrome machine for more than about 5 minutes without my eyes wigging out. They are located in indentical lighting environments. -Andy (andy@ufl.edu)
amichiel@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Allen J Michielsen) (07/08/90)
In article <25995@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> jac@zabriskie.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Gordo >In article <413@arkham.enet.dec.com> smith@clion4.enet.dec.com (Joe Smith) wri >>>> I used to use sun3/sun4 work stations. But now our department >>switched to ds3100's. ... most people who use the ds3100 regret the change. >>>>The main problem is the terrible display. For some reason, the display >>What model monitors do you have, and what sort of color scheme? I use >>DEC's 16" Trinitron and I love it. ... old 15" VR160 and it had some >>serious problems in my opinion > My VR160 did not focus well (evenly) and caused eye strain. The new Sony >monitors are fantastic. > It is not a characteristic problem of all 3100's by any means. The really funny thing about all of this, and I keep hearing it over and over and over again, is that for nearly 9 months now, dec has been using the exact same monitors as sun, in a different case. The difference is noticeable, but the -sunn-ies- just won't give up. One review I saw swapped them, showiing the entire workstation but hiding the monitor box. When most of the sample could see the sun cpu, they picked what they thought was the sun monitor. When both were hidden or swapped back, the results were random. Funny...
jwg1@gte.com (James W. Gish) (07/12/90)
In article <DAVIS.90Jul5122923@pacific.pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu> davis@pacific.pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu ("John E. Davis") writes: > > I used to use sun3/sun4 work stations. But now our department switched to > ds3100's. In retrospect, most people who use the ds3100 regret the change. > The main problem is the terrible display. For some reason, the display > flickers and quite honestly after about two minutes I get a headache. I know > other people who refuse to use the 3100's for this same reason. > > However, I hear alot of people talking about the 3100's on this newsgroup > and others and no one complains about the crappy displays. Why? Is there a > fix for this that we don't know about? > You don't mention which display you are using. I've used both the 19" monochrome and the 19" Phillips color. They both have 60HZ refresh and both flicker - regardless of the room light in use. The difficulty you will find in discussing flicker is that some people see it and some people don't, or rather everyone can see flicker but not necessarily the same frequency flicker as everyone else. I happen to be extremely sensitive to 60HZ flicker and can see it with almost every monitor you put in front of me that has 60HZ refresh. The ones I don't see it in at that refresh rate probably have longer persistence phosphors. When I got my DS3100 I was told that it could be setup as a greyscale monitor, which would have allowed me to reduce the flicker by using a white foreground on a dark grey or black background. Although, it simply involved getting the right cable - which is possible because I saw it done in the Digital sales office - the salesman couldn't get the warehouse to release the right configuration because it was 'unsupported'. I put up with the monochrome monitor for a couple of weeks with the flicker and the unfocused image - which Digital could NOT do anything about. They gave me another monochrome monitor that was as least as bad as the first. They finally ended up giving me the Phillip's 19" color, which when set with suitably dark backgrounds reduces the flicker problem. I now tolerate this monitor, but it is not very bright or sharp (because of the color mask), but I at least don't get headaches anymore. The Sony 16" is by far the best color monitor I've seen in terms of sharpness and brightness and non-glare. (Now, if they could just get rid of those annoying little support wires at the top and bottom!) -- Jim Gish (jgish@gte.com) Principal Investigator Software Reusability Project GTE Laboratories Inc.