lark@greylock.tivoli.com (Lar Kaufman) (03/05/91)
Our documentation group is using a DEC 2100, 3100, and a 5000. We are not happy with the keyboard layout or tactile feedback of these keyboards, which make touchtyping in a Unix environment very frustrating. Also, the hockey puck mouse is a nuisance to use for drawing in, say, FrameMaker, because it is very difficult to determine the direction the mouse is pointing. Also, the mouse is fatiguing to use for one of the writers, who has small hands. What alternative keyboards/mice are available for these workstations? If there are none, can someone provide schematics for the keyboard and mouse so I can build an interface to use a PC AT-type keyboard and mouse with these systems? A final option: We made inquiries to DEC for keyboard alternatives, and was told that there were none, unless we wanted them to build us a custom keyboard. Apparently they have done so for some large customers, but we are only talking about 3-5 machines here. Does someone out there have a nice custom keyboard that they can sell us at a reasonable price? Ditto, mouse? Thanks, -lar P.S. Makes you wonder what kind of ergonomic studies DEC does, doesn't it? Lar Kaufman I would feel more optimistic about a bright future (voice) 512-794-9070 for man if he spent less time proving that he can (fax) 512-794-0623 outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness lark@tivoli.com and respecting her seniority. - E.B. White
terry@spcvxb.spc.edu (Terry Kennedy, Operations Mgr.) (03/05/91)
In article <448@tivoli.UUCP>, lark@greylock.tivoli.com (Lar Kaufman) writes: > A final option: We made inquiries to DEC for keyboard alternatives, and > was told that there were none, unless we wanted them to build us a > custom keyboard. Apparently they have done so for some large customers, > but we are only talking about 3-5 machines here. Does someone out there > have a nice custom keyboard that they can sell us at a reasonable price? Several Symposia ago, DEC showed 3 or 4 different prototype keyboards and had a survey to see what people liked. The result of that is the keyboard on the VT420. That keyboard seems to be interchangable with the ones on the VT2xx/3xx as well as the VAXstations, since it lasted about a day attached to the VT420 8-) Personally, I hated the LK201 (generated _lots_ of typos). I finally trained myself to it and now prefer it over the new VT420-style one. Sigh. > Ditto, mouse? > P.S. Makes you wonder what kind of ergonomic studies DEC does, doesn't it? The DEC hockey puck mouse actually won a design award. I don't think it was for *ergonomic* design, though. There is an earlier traditional-type mouse that is no longer marketed - maybe you could get one through a used-equipment reseller? Terry Kennedy Operations Manager, Academic Computing terry@spcvxa.bitnet St. Peter's College, US terry@spcvxa.spc.edu (201) 915-9381
seymour@milton.u.washington.edu (Richard Seymour) (03/07/91)
In article <448@tivoli.UUCP> lark@tivoli.com (Lar Kaufman) writes: (in reference to DEC's keyboard and mouse design...) >P.S. Makes you wonder what kind of ergonomic studies DEC does, doesn't it? i remember when DEC brought out the LK-201 keyboard design... They were ** SO PROUD ** of the ergonomic studies they did... (almost exact quote:) "We tested it with everybody ... we even brought in the janitors and let them use it." Great -- and so a keyboard designed for non-typists hit the field (with a Compose Key which all the typists proceeded to hit... at least the vt320 (and most VT-emulators) lets you ignore it, now...) --dick
connie@sushi.psych.nwu.edu (Constance Stillinger) (03/07/91)
In article <17852@milton.u.washington.edu> seymour@milton.u.washington.edu (Richard Seymour) writes: > >i remember when DEC brought out the LK-201 keyboard design... >They were ** SO PROUD ** of the ergonomic studies they did... >(almost exact quote:) "We tested it with everybody ... we even brought > in the janitors and let them use it." > I'll bet "everybody" didn't include many women -- else the puck would have been smaller and the keyboard touch lighter... -- Constance Stillinger (connie@sushi.psych.nwu.edu) Assistant Prof., Dep't of Psychology Northwestern University --
rjg@umnstat.stat.umn.edu (Robert J. Granvin) (03/08/91)
|> >i remember when DEC brought out the LK-201 keyboard design...
There has been talk and rumor for quite some time that DEC is designing
or planning to release a "Unix Keyboard." (This is not the LK-401,
which is basically an aesthetically improved LK-201, but didn't really
gain much...)
Any rumors or facts on this elusive keyboard?
--
Robert J. Granvin E/Mail: rjg@umnstat.stat.umn.edu
User Services Specialist AT&T: +1 612 625 9224
School of Statistics
University of Minnesotamjr@hussar.dco.dec.com (Marcus J. Ranum) (03/08/91)
seymour@milton.u.washington.edu (Richard Seymour) writes: >i remember when DEC brought out the LK-201 keyboard design... I have to admit that I personally would prefer a LOT of ill-thought-out designs to a single well-thought-out one - it's my experience that keyboards are more a matter of taste than ergonomics, philosophy, or industrial design. It'd be nice if everyone just made their machines to accept taiwan-made IBM PC/AT compatible keyboards - there are literally dozens of configurations and a wide range of quality - ranging from $30 clones to cadillacs from Northgate. It's also trivial to get specialized keycaps, etc, etc. The computer industry still has a lot to learn from the IBM clone phenomenon. PC clones are a wonderful source of cheap parts waiting to be tapped: if you can't lick 'em, dismantle 'em and use what you can... :) mjr.
lark@greylock.tivoli.com (Lar Kaufman) (03/08/91)
In article <1991Mar7.001427.10581@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>, connie@sushi.psych.nwu.edu (Constance Stillinger) writes: > In article <17852@milton.u.washington.edu> seymour@milton.u.washington.edu (Richard Seymour) writes: > > > >i remember when DEC brought out the LK-201 keyboard design... At least I like the model number of the keyboard. Something charming about LK. :-) > >They were ** SO PROUD ** of the ergonomic studies they did... > >(almost exact quote:) "We tested it with everybody ... we even brought > > in the janitors and let them use it." Regretably, most janitors are probably not touch-typists. > > I'll bet "everybody" didn't include many women -- else the puck would > have been smaller and the keyboard touch lighter... Agreed. Actually, I'm a big guy and I find the keyboard touch to be quite heavy. It's even heavier on the other DECstation in my office, so I also know that the stroke pressures required varies across keyboards. My guess is that there isn't an Engineering Specification for the spring tension in the keys, or QA doesn't test that, or the spec is too broad. Possibly a heavy spring pressure is used to ensure that keys don't stick... I haven't found much in the way of good news regarding alternatives, but I haven't given up. So far, I've been told of a trackball that replaces the mouse, and that an old-style mouse (no longer available from DEC) should work. I understand that the keyboard from the VT420 should fit and has a better keyboard layout (although that is the one keyboard problem that I can largely work around using xkeymap). I don't know whether the VT420 keyboard has a better tactile response yet, nor do I know pricing or availability. - will follow up. Key Tronics, who makes the wonderful keyboards I use on my PCs at home, does not make a keyboard for the DECstation, although the engineer I talked to sounded interested in the problem. I was told that if they felt there was sufficient interest, they would examine the issue, so I may push that option. I've come to appreciate DG's decision to use an AT-compatible keyboard on the Aviion - it gives the users lots of choices. A DEC employee notified me that he was forwarding my comments to appropriate people for their attention. That was nice. I haven't had a chance to look for mouse alternatives yet, nor have I checked with the OEMs for either the mouse or the keyboard for possible alternatives. If nothing else, maybe I can get lighter springs to put under the keycaps. Does anyone happen to have information about the signal logic and pin-outs for the keyboard and the mouse? Is that kind of information in the appropriate hardware technical manuals? (All I have is the Ultrix docset.) I'll summarize the results of my findings. My thanks to those of you who replied. Lar Kaufman I would feel more optimistic about a bright future (voice) 512-794-9070 for man if he spent less time proving that he can (fax) 512-794-0623 outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness lark@tivoli.com and respecting her seniority. - E.B. White
dittman@skbat.csc.ti.com (Eric Dittman) (03/08/91)
In article <1991Mar07.193702.14987@decuac.dec.com>, mjr@hussar.dco.dec.com (Marcus J. Ranum) writes: > I have to admit that I personally would prefer a LOT of > ill-thought-out designs to a single well-thought-out one - it's my > experience that keyboards are more a matter of taste than ergonomics, > philosophy, or industrial design. It'd be nice if everyone just made > their machines to accept taiwan-made IBM PC/AT compatible keyboards - > there are literally dozens of configurations and a wide range of > quality - ranging from $30 clones to cadillacs from Northgate. It's > also trivial to get specialized keycaps, etc, etc. The computer > industry still has a lot to learn from the IBM clone phenomenon. Unfortunately, the IBM-PC 101-key keyboards are one key short on the keypad. This isn't as bad if you are emulating a newer terminal like a VT220/320 using TPU, but bad if you are emulating a VT-anything using EDT. -- Eric Dittman Texas Instruments - Component Test Facility dittman@skitzo.csc.ti.com dittman@skbat.csc.ti.com Disclaimer: I don't speak for Texas Instruments or the Component Test Facility. I don't even speak for myself.
cts@dragon.uucp (Charles T. Smith, Jr.) (03/09/91)
In article <1991Mar7.182805.7774@cs.umn.edu>, rjg@umnstat.stat.umn.edu (Robert J. Granvin) writes: > > There has been talk and rumor for quite some time that DEC is designing > or planning to release a "Unix Keyboard." (This is not the LK-401, > which is basically an aesthetically improved LK-201, but didn't really > gain much...) > > Any rumors or facts on this elusive keyboard? At a recent Decus, there were three keyboard prototypes on display. User comments were solicited, and the people doing the testing indicated that the intention was to field at least one, and possibly multiple keyboard designs.
don@zl2tnm.gp.co.nz (Don Stokes) (03/09/91)
rjg@umnstat.stat.umn.edu (Robert J. Granvin) writes: > |> >i remember when DEC brought out the LK-201 keyboard design... > > There has been talk and rumor for quite some time that DEC is designing > or planning to release a "Unix Keyboard." (This is not the LK-401, > which is basically an aesthetically improved LK-201, but didn't really > gain much...) A "unix keyboard".... now I'm *convinced* that "standardisation" means "do it the Unix Way", eg XON-XOFF flow control being virtually unsupported (ever tried doing RTS/CTS flow control over a cheap modem?), refusal to accept DELETE as a DELETE etc. Sigh. Actually, I kinda like the LK401 -- there's a bit of tactile feedback in them which the LK201 lacks. Actually, the LK201 only requires a light touch -- my Taiwanese PC klone keyboard requires more pressure, but I prefer it to the LK201. The problem with the 201 is that there is no clear indication of when the key has been pressed, and the key's don't stop but just get harder to press as you push them down. Ugh -- I've used them for six years, and still hate them. Don Stokes, ZL2TNM / / don@zl2tnm.gp.co.nz (home) Systems Programmer /GP/ GP PRINT LIMITED Wellington, don@gp.co.nz (work) __________________/ / ---------------- New_Zealand__________________________
wald@dover.tmc.edu (Steve Wald) (03/12/91)
In article <VDoHy2w163w@zl2tnm.gp.co.nz> don@zl2tnm.gp.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: >... The problem with the 201 is that there is no >clear indication of when the key has been pressed, and the key's don't >stop but just get harder to press as you push them down. Ugh -- I've >used them for six years, and still hate them. I also find the mushy feel disagreeable, but I've found that turning on the key-click capability helps the feedback problem quite a bit. If the real history were told, you might find that audible key-click was provided as an afterthought for a poorly designed VT52 keyboard with no tactile feedback and there was too large of a user base to change things later. A far worse problem for me has been the placement of an extra key between the '" and RETURN. Whoever it was at DEC and/or SUN that decided this to be an acceptable place to put a key should be shot. I have to work on Macintoshes at work as well as this Decstation with its LK201, and I am forever hitting the back-slash instead of RETURN. To add insult to injury, the delete key must be pressed TWICE to delete the back-slash, it being an escape key for the DECterm. DEC would do well to provide an optional interface for third-party keyboards. -- Steve Wald Motorola Inc. wald@dover.sps.mot.com
okunewck@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu (Phil OKunewick) (03/13/91)
cts@dragon.uucp (Charles T. Smith, Jr.) writes: >At a recent Decus, there were three keyboard prototypes on display. User >comments were solicited, and the people doing the testing indicated that >the intention was to field at least one, and possibly multiple keyboard >designs. Three prototypes? Something ain't quite right here - seems to me the wise thing to do would be to put out some tested,tried,true keyboards along woth the prototypes, just in case people preferred something that already works. When they asked which one you preferred, did they allow "none of the above"? We're currently evaluating a Dec5000. Like any other machine, it has a few minor problems. But the keyboard is definitely junk.