setala@jyu.fi (Saku Setala) (04/01/91)
About PDP-11's...
Nice to see that there's still so much PDP-11's in
(hobbyist) use. We have also one PDP-11/23 Plus running
in our cellar (with 2 Megabytes of RAM, four RL02-drives
and fourteen RS-lines). It's currently running RSX-11M
(V4.1 BL35). Naturally we are interested about any
PD or alike software we can find for it. So is there any kind
of DECUS-server in net containing any RSX or RT-11
stuff ? At least here in Finland, prices of local
Decus are too much for us, and as our machine has
neither magtape unit nor floppy-drives, it's impossible
to order from them.
We have DECUS-C (I don't remember the version) in our machine,
but it's probably lacking some header files like cx.h.
I want to know how to use some system routines, e.g. to read and
set the UIC, to spawn the command to DCL or MCR, how to
handle wildcards from C and some other useful routines.
I have also heard that it's possible to get SCSI-controllers
to PDP-11's but is it possible for this model (23 plus), which
has "Extended 22-bit LSI-bus" instead of Unibus ?
And is there any software support in RSX-11 for SCSI-disks ?
(I think RL02's are consuming too much electricity for
that 10 MB capacity).
I'm also interested to get any newer operating system,
like RSX-11M-Plus or some version of Unix (V.? or BSD 2.?),
but do they (unix) run on this model, which doesn't have separate
I- and D-space ?
Our PDP-11/23+ (called Elukka) is answering in number
+358-0-701-666-0 with USRobo Courier HST Dual Standard
(V.22-V.32, 8-N-1 24H). We welcome all guest users.
--
Internet: setala@jyu.fi; EARN/BITNET: SETALA@FINJYU.BITNET; FUDec: JYLK::SETALA
Dialcom/Telebox: 12762:TBX155; HPY_Elisa: Setala Saku mdata; TeleSampo: MDATA
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MITS BBS: +358-0-4582066 (USR HST), +358-0-4582077 (USR HST/DS) (15 Nodes)kalisiak@acsu.buffalo.edu (christophe m kalisiak) (04/01/91)
In article <1991Mar31.192145.11333@jyu.fi> setala@jyu.fi (Saku Setala) writes: > > Nice to see that there's still so much PDP-11's in > (hobbyist) use. We have also one PDP-11/23 Plus running > in our cellar (with 2 Megabytes of RAM, four RL02-drives > and fourteen RS-lines). It's currently running RSX-11M > (V4.1 BL35). Personally, I prefer PDP-11's over PC's any day, especially if the PDP is running RSX... >Naturally we are interested about any > PD or alike software we can find for it. So is there any kind > of DECUS-server in net containing any RSX or RT-11 > stuff ? You can find DECUS software anonymously on the FTP site mvb.saic.com under the directories [.f90.lt90b1.rsx90b] and [.s90.vax90a.xrsx90a]. >At least here in Finland, prices of local > Decus are too much for us, and as our machine has > neither magtape unit nor floppy-drives, it's impossible > to order from them. Buying DECUS software is generally too expensive to bother with... > I have also heard that it's possible to get SCSI-controllers > to PDP-11's but is it possible for this model (23 plus), which > has "Extended 22-bit LSI-bus" instead of Unibus ? > And is there any software support in RSX-11 for SCSI-disks ? > (I think RL02's are consuming too much electricity for > that 10 MB capacity). SCSI controllers are more available to Q-Bus than Unibus. The problem with any SCSI controllers is the cost. They go for anywhere between $800 and $2000 (actually, I havn't looked recently, but I know they are out of my price range...). There is software support for them just so long as the controller manufacturer develops the board to be compatible with a given driver. The most common is MSCP (mnemonic = DU). I don't know if your V4.1 will support it, though... You can probably find a SCSI controller to work under an older driver. > I'm also interested to get any newer operating system, > like RSX-11M-Plus or some version of Unix (V.? or BSD 2.?), > but do they (unix) run on this model, which doesn't have separate > I- and D-space ? Good luck. I havn't been able to find anyone willing to give away Unix of any sort. > Our PDP-11/23+ (called Elukka) is answering in number > +358-0-701-666-0 with USRobo Courier HST Dual Standard > (V.22-V.32, 8-N-1 24H). We welcome all guest users. Does your system have any sort of 'bulletin board' software? If so, please respond via e-mail. I have been attempting to find someone with a 'bulletin' utility for RSX for quite some time. Thanks, Chris Kalisiak V076N3W7@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu kalisiak@acsu.buffalo.edu
rocker@bucsf.bu.edu (The Long Haired One) (06/22/91)
These are probably a very simple questions. I just don't know the answers. I noticed that Pdp11's come in 2 types - qbus and unibus. Do the numbers of the machines like pdp-11/23 and pdp-11/24 relate to which is which type? And can someone tell me the differences between qbus-ing and unibuses, as to which is possibly better or what drawbacks they might hold. -Tom Hinds rocker@bucsf.bu.edu
terry@spcvxb.spc.edu (Terry Kennedy, Operations Mgr.) (06/22/91)
In article <ROCKER.91Jun21192228@bucsf.bu.edu>, rocker@bucsf.bu.edu (The Long Haired One) writes: > > These are probably a very simple questions. I just don't know the answers. > I noticed that Pdp11's come in 2 types - qbus and unibus. Do the numbers > of the machines like pdp-11/23 and pdp-11/24 relate to which is which type? Yup. In general, the 11/x3's are Q-bus: the 11-03/23/53/73/83/93 systems. Unibus model numbers wander all over the place 8-). There are also some sys- tems that are neither Unibus nor Q-bus; the PRO series comes to mind... > And can someone tell me the differences between qbus-ing and unibuses, as > to which is possibly better or what drawbacks they might hold. Q-bus is a somewhat newer system which uses multiplexed address and data lines; the Unibus has seperate address and data buses. There are also other differences, but that is the major technical one. Unibus systems tend to be larger and more power-hungry. Recent advances (in geological terms) such as block mode DMA and the PMI have made the Q-bus almost as fast as, and in many cases, faster than, the Unibus. DEC no longer makes Unibus VAXen; they still make Q-bus ones. PDP-11's are available in both configurations, although the current Unibus ones are actu- ally Q-bus systems with a Unibus adapter. Terry Kennedy Operations Manager, Academic Computing terry@spcvxa.bitnet St. Peter's College, US terry@spcvxa.spc.edu (201) 915-9381
don@zl2tnm.gp.co.nz (Don Stokes) (06/23/91)
rocker@bucsf.bu.edu (The Long Haired One) writes: > These are probably a very simple questions. I just don't know the answers. > I noticed that Pdp11's come in 2 types - qbus and unibus. Do the numbers > of the machines like pdp-11/23 and pdp-11/24 relate to which is which type? > > And can someone tell me the differences between qbus-ing and unibuses, as > to which is possibly better or what drawbacks they might hold. If the last digit is a 3, then it's Qbus. Anything else indicates a Unibus machine, ie: 04,05,10,20,24,30,34,35,40,44,45,50,60,70,84,94 Unibus 03,23,53,73,83,93 Qbus All modern Unibus machines have 4 as their last digit since the /34. Where there are models with both n3 and n4 numbers, the two usually have equivalent processors (not sure about the /03 and /04 -- are these the same chipset?). Don Stokes, ZL2TNM / / don@zl2tnm.gp.co.nz (home) Systems Programmer /GP/ GP PRINT LIMITED Wellington, don@gp.co.nz (work) __________________/ / ---------------- New_Zealand__________________________
slsw2@cc.usu.edu (06/24/91)
In article <1991Jun22.041102.1509@spcvxb.spc.edu>, terry@spcvxb.spc.edu (Terry Kennedy, Operations Mgr.) writes: > Recent advances (in geological terms) such as > block mode DMA and the PMI have made the Q-bus almost as fast as, and in > many cases, faster than, the Unibus. I spent a lot of time looking at the QBus and UNIBUS some years ago. With block mode the QBus peaks at about 3 1/3 MB/s. UNIBUS peaks at 6 2/3 MB/s; a memory module can support this throughput using 70 ns static RAM. The main problem with UNIBUS as far as modern systems go is that it has a limited address range; 256KB as opposed to 4MB for the QBus. Roger Ivie slsw2@cc.usu.edu
slsw2@cc.usu.edu (06/24/91)
In article <2RTZ41w163w@zl2tnm.gp.co.nz>, don@zl2tnm.gp.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: > But of course a Pro or PDT or whatever that isn't either Qbus or Unibus > *isn't* a PDP-11. To quote an old Digital publication: > > "When an LSI processor board is package with a backplane, power > supply and rack mountable box, DIGITAL considers it a member of > the outstanding PDP-11 family." > > Conversely, if it hasn't got a backplane, and not in a rackmountable > box (a BA23 is rackmountable), it's not a PDP-11. Nope. That just makes it a member of the average, everyday PDP-11 family, as opposed to the outstanding PDP-11 family. :-) Roger Ivie slsw2@cc.usu.edu
havemann_l@spcvxb.spc.edu (06/24/91)
In article <1991Jun24.093746.48196@cc.usu.edu>, slsw2@cc.usu.edu writes: > > I spent a lot of time looking at the QBus and UNIBUS some years ago. With > block mode the QBus peaks at about 3 1/3 MB/s. UNIBUS peaks at 6 2/3 MB/s; > a memory module can support this throughput using 70 ns static RAM. > > The main problem with UNIBUS as far as modern systems go is that it has a > limited address range; 256KB as opposed to 4MB for the QBus. In the *modern* UNIBUS systems (/24/44/84/94), they have memory mapping - allowing an address range of 2048K (4 Mb's). ----------------------------------------------------------- | Lee Havemann, Sys_op HSH Associates | | Havemann_l@spcvxa.spc.edu | | "Any opinions that are expressed are my own, since this | | company can't afford to have any........" | -----------------------------------------------------------
bpechter@pyrite.nj.pyramid.com (Bill Pechter) (06/25/91)
In article <7JmX46w163w@zl2tnm.gp.co.nz> don@zl2tnm.gp.co.nz (Don Stokes) writes: > >All modern Unibus machines have 4 as their last digit since the /34. >Where there are models with both n3 and n4 numbers, the two usually >have equivalent processors (not sure about the /03 and /04 -- are these >the same chipset?). Nope - the 11/03 used the WD Chipset (what was that chipset called?) with the DEC MICROMS to make 'em PDP11/40-ish. The 11/04 is closer to the 11/34 in design. MSI and SSI TTL 7400 series chips. The 11/04 was designed to replace the 11/05, 11/10 which used mostly SSI TTL chips (74xx). Bill Most 11/04's in non-industrial control use were upgraded to 11/34's or 11/34a's (a simple swap out of cpu boards, basically). Bill -- Bill Pechter | "The postmaster always pings twice." Pyramid Technology | bill@pyrite.nj.pyramid.com 10 Woodbridge Center Drive | rutgers!pyrnj!pyrite!bill Woodbridge, NJ 07095 (908)602-6308 | pyramid!pyrnj!pyrite!bill
terry@spcvxb.spc.edu (Terry Kennedy, Operations Mgr.) (06/25/91)
In article <573@pyrite.nj.pyramid.com>, bpechter@pyrite.nj.pyramid.com (Bill Pechter) writes: > Nope - the 11/03 used the WD Chipset (what was that chipset called?) with the > DEC MICROMS to make 'em PDP11/40-ish. WD-16. It was also used in the Alpha Micro systems before they switched to 68000's, and (with custom microcode) in the Pascal MicroEngine. Terry Kennedy Operations Manager, Academic Computing terry@spcvxa.bitnet St. Peter's College, US terry@spcvxa.spc.edu (201) 915-9381
grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins) (06/25/91)
In article <1991Jun24.160613.1515@spcvxb.spc.edu> havemann_l@spcvxb.spc.edu writes: > In article <1991Jun24.093746.48196@cc.usu.edu>, slsw2@cc.usu.edu writes: > > > > I spent a lot of time looking at the QBus and UNIBUS some years ago. With > > block mode the QBus peaks at about 3 1/3 MB/s. UNIBUS peaks at 6 2/3 MB/s; > > a memory module can support this throughput using 70 ns static RAM. > > > > The main problem with UNIBUS as far as modern systems go is that it has a > > limited address range; 256KB as opposed to 4MB for the QBus. > > In the *modern* UNIBUS systems (/24/44/84/94), they have memory mapping - > allowing an address range of 2048K (4 Mb's). Yes, but the unibus itself is has only 2^18 address lines, limited each individual unibus to 256KB. This doesn't really matter much since most systems of either ilk keep main memory on a private memory interconnect of some sort. Q-bus is is cheaper both in system and peripheral implementation, the reasons for having dual flavor systems was partly performance and partly avilability of DEC peripherals for Unibus which at the time didn't have Q-bus equivalents. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing: domain: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com Commodore, Engineering Department phone: 215-431-9349 (only by moonlite)
gwlester@cpu.com (Gerald Lester) (06/25/91)
In article <1991Jun24.093746.48196@cc.usu.edu> slsw2@cc.usu.edu writes: > >The main problem with UNIBUS as far as modern systems go is that it has a >limited address range; 256KB as opposed to 4MB for the QBus. > Funny, I seem to remember having a PDP-11/44 (a UNIBUS machine) with 4MB of memory. I think the problem is not with the UNIBUS, since it is also used for some of the VAX line, but with some of the older 11s.
robin@lsl.co.uk (Robin Fairbairns) (06/26/91)
In article <1991Jun25.151303.22228@cpu.com>, gwlester@cpu.com (Gerald Lester) writes: > In article <1991Jun24.093746.48196@cc.usu.edu> slsw2@cc.usu.edu writes: >> >>The main problem with UNIBUS as far as modern systems go is that it has a >>limited address range; 256KB as opposed to 4MB for the QBus. >> > Funny, I seem to remember having a PDP-11/44 (a UNIBUS machine) with 4MB of > memory. I think the problem is not with the UNIBUS, since it is also used > for some of the VAX line, but with some of the older 11s. The limited (physical) address range relates to what you can see over the bus. So if (as on the 11/45, which I had experience of) the memory is connected to the CPU via the Unibus, then it's limited to 256KB. However, as first the 11/70, then the VAX 11/780, and all subsequent Unibus VAXen and large-memory PDPs, have demonstrated, there's no reason you shouldn't interpose mapping registers between peripherals (talking through the Unibus) and the memory (addressed through something `private'). It does impose restrictions on what you can do (limits the maximum physical size of transfers, for example) but on the PDP this isn't an issue, since the maximum segment size is 64KB, and under VMS (who cares about U*x?) software limits the maximum size of transfer. In fact, the more complicated design of the Unibus is not *just* due to its age, but to the separation of address and data lines. This separation means that Unibuses (Unibi?) intrinsically have higher throughput than Qbuses (Qbi). So the only people who suffer grief are the systems programmers. And who ever cared about us? As my predecessor in that role here wrote in a comment - E Unibus plurum* -- Robin Fairbairns, Senior Consultant, postmaster and general dogsbody Laser-Scan Ltd., Science Park, Milton Rd., Cambridge CB4 4FY, UK Email: robin@lsl.co.uk --or-- rf@cl.cam.ac.uk * From the Latin - plurum (n), a tear. Boo hoo indeed.