ostreicherg@pieta.UUCP (Gary Ostreicher) (02/22/90)
This letter is a copy of a letter I sent to the Arizona Attorney
General, Better Business Bureau and other organizations. The
letter is meant to be a warning about the type of dealerships
that exist and some of their crooked practices. You should not
buy from Schroeders dealership, as they will sell you defective
equipment and give you lousy service.
#################################################################
I purchased an electric keyboard from Schroeders Keyboard City in
the Paradise Valley Mall on December 20th, 1989. My salesman was
Mr. Robert Fisher. The keyboard has twenty sound options. After
a week, I discovered that the Jazz Organ sound has an obnoxious
and loud clicking sound. I then checked all the sound options.
All the other sounds were alright, but one of the keys produced
no sound. I took the keyboard back for repairs. Mr. Fisher said
the repairs would take less than a week. He offered to loan me
another keyboard. I told him that I could wait a week.
On January 3rd, I returned to the store. I was told that my
keyboard would not be fixed for a couple of weeks because it was
a busy time of the year. I waited for two weeks. I called Mr.
Fisher on Monday Jan. 15th, he assured me that my keyboard would
be repaired by that Thursday. I went back to Schroeders that
Saturday. Mr. Fisher told me that my keyboard was fixed and it
was on its way back to the store, but that it would be a couple
of hours. He told me the broken key was fixed, but the clicking
sound was normal. I argued that an obnoxious sound louder than
the notes is not normal. He said that he agreed with me, and
maybe they could muffle the clicking sound a little. I said that
I would be back in a few hours to see the condition of my
keyboard. Mr. Fisher then told me that maybe the keyboard was not
on its way to the store, and he wasn't sure when my keyboard
would be returned. I told him that I wanted my money back, and I
would never do business with Schroeders.
Mr. Fisher told me that he could not refund my money. I would
have to talk to his supervisor. His supervisor, Greg, would be in
on Monday. I talked to Greg on Monday, Jan. 22nd. Greg told me
that Schroeders does not refund money. He told me I had signed an
agreement stating that I understood that I could not get a refund
if there were any problems. I told him that when I signed this
agreement that I was told it was an acknowledgement of receipt of
the keyboard. Mr. Fisher filled out this agreement, then he told
me that I needed to sign to show that I acknowledge receipt of
the keyboard. He showed me the line that reads "RECEIPT is hereby
acknowledged for payment by cash, check or charge in the amount
of $433.47". Reading this made sense, so I signed the agreement.
There is fine print all over this agreement, and I did not read
all of these paragraphs.
I told Greg that Mr. Fisher had told me many things when he was
selling me the keyboard. He told me how the keyboard was half
price, because it was a discontinued item and the last one in the
store. He said, if I buy the keyboard he would throw in a thirty
dollar adapter and a set of headphones. When the paper work was
being done, Mr. Fisher said his computer wouldn't allow him to
show that the adapter was free, so he put down ten dollars on the
receipt. I found out that this "thirty dollar" adapter sells for
ten dollars in their store, and the keyboard was sold to me at
full retail price. I told him that I would not take any
exchanges, I wanted a full refund and did not want to do business
with Schroeders. He stated that it would be hard to prove all the
things that his salesman had done. I said I didn't think it was
worth perjuring yourselves for a few hundred dollars. He stated
that he would not refund my money.
Greg told me that I needed to talk to his boss if I wanted to try
to get a refund. Her name is Karen and can be reached at 264-
6115. She then told me that I needed to talk to her boss. His
name is Tim Proskins. I told Tim my problem. He said he would
check out my story and call me back. He apparently talked to his
people, because the next day Greg called me at work. Greg told me
that I could use the purchase price of my keyboard toward buying
another keyboard. I told him that I was lied to by Mr. Fisher
about the price, the adapter, what was wrong with my keyboard and
when it would be fixed. I found that Schroeders used deceptive
practices to sell damage merchandise. I said I did not want to
deal with the company, and I definitely did not want to spend
more money on another keyboard, which is what he suggested. After
Greg's call, I tried to reach Tim Proskins at his office. I was
told that he had gone out-of-town for a keyboard convention,
however he had left a message for me that stated "Schroeders
would not refund my money".
My keyboard total cost was four hundred thirty three dollars and
forty seven cents. The highest level of management that I have
been able to reach is Tim Proskins, Ph: 230-2206, Addr: 1945 E.
Indian School Rd. Phoenix, Az 85016. I have enclosed a copy of
the signed agreement. I am willing to cooperate with the AG's
office to prosecute Schroeders Keyboard City for fraud and
deceptive business practices.
The latest update has just occurred on February 2, 1990. I
received a call stating that my keyboard has been fixed. The
clicking sound is still there, but it is a normal sound. I
continue to want a complete refund. I refuse to deal with these
crooked business people as a customer.
#################################################################
Gary Ostreicher
UUCP:
{ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!zardoz!hrc | att}!gtephx!ostreichergjharkins@sagpd1.UUCP (Jim Harkins) (02/23/90)
In article <48c8010c.13778@pieta.UUCP> ostreicherg@pieta.UUCP (Gary Ostreicher) writes: >Reading this made sense, so I signed the agreement. >There is fine print all over this agreement, and I did not read >all of these paragraphs. Stupid stupid stupid. This has come up several times before in this and other newsgroups, basically most places let you draw a line through the parts of the contract you don't like. Yes, I'm one of those people who hold up the line at the stereo store while I read the fine print before signing. In fact, I don't understand how people can sign anything without reading it, especially if it's full of fine print. Elsewhere you printed the phone number for a woman named Karen. I don't think it's a good idea to post anyones phone number without their consent, especially when xxx-xxxx will do just fine. Good luck with the keyboard, if it was up to me you'd get the refund. -- jim jharkins@sagpd1 "I've found by and large that when the flu gets you, the best thing to do (other than go to bed, which is boring) is to go conquer something." -Jerry Pournelle
lowery@se-sd.NCR.COM (Tim Lowery) (02/24/90)
[ Description of bad experience with music store in Phoenix deleted. ] I have had some bad experiences with a music store in the San Diego area. I went to MusicMart to purchase an Ensoniq VFX. The salesperson, a wonam named Melanie, told me that the instrument lists for $1995, but that she could discount it 25%. This sounded like a good deal to me so we started to fill out the paperwork. I asked her to add a keyboard stand (which I know retails for around $80). When she gave me the receipt to sign, I saw that the total was over $2200! She had charged me list price for the keyboard! I confronted her with this and she offered to "eat the sales tax" (about $100) and throw in the latest edition of Keyboard magazine free. I told her that this was unacceptable and left the store. I have dealt with MusicMart before. I have always dealt with a salesman named Bernie Ordona, who always gave me good deals and was straight with me. He has since left, and Melanie is now the head of the keyboard department. I don't think I will ever do business with MusicMart again. I wanted to add that another thing that bugs me about many musical instrument dealers is that they refuse to give you a straight answer on the price they will sell merchandise. You ask them for a price, and all they'll give you is list. They insist on playing games with you, trying to see how much they can get out of you (shades of used car salesmen). I realize that these guys have to make a profit, but why can't they just quote me their best price in the beginning rather than making me propose a price and telling me that my proposal is too low? If I ever find another salesperson who will play straight with me and quote me the best price in the beginning, I'll stick with his store (even if they charge me a little more than somebody else's lowest price). It's just not worth the extra $50 to $100 dollars I'd save to subject myself to the hassle of bargaining with the salesman. I'd be interested in hearing other people's feelings about this. Regards Tim lowery@se-sd.SanDiego.NCR.COM
rspangle@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Randy Spangler) (02/25/90)
I've bought a lot of stuff (mixer, MX-8 MIDI patch bay, TX-16W, etc.) from Runzo's Music World in Dublin, CA. They've always been very straight with me, especially with prices. The experience I remember most was buying the MX-8 MIDI patch bay. I talked with Dean (one of the sales people). This was right after the MX-8 came out, and most places were still asking list ($399) for it. Dean said that the price was $300, and he'd sell it to me for $250. Then later he called me at work and told me that he had accidentally quoted me HIS price for it, and that the list price was $399. However, he did stick by his original $250 quote. When the first MX-8 had a bad rom chip, I took it back in and he gave me the other one in the store, without any hassle at all (the second one worked just fine). Just for reference, the address is Runzo's Music World 7017 Village Parkway Dublin, CA 94568 (415) 829-4333 I've dealt with several other sales persons there, and all have been as honest and easy to deal with as Dean was. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Randy Spangler | The less things change, the | | rspangle@jarthur.claremont.edu | more they remain the same | --------------------------------------------------------------------------
rca@dark.rtech.COM (Bob Arnold) (02/26/90)
In article <2450@se-sd.NCR.COM> lowery@se-sd.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Tim Lowery) writes: >[ Description of bad experience with music store in Phoenix deleted. ] > >I wanted to add that another thing that bugs me about many musical instrument >dealers is that they refuse to give you a straight answer on the price they >will sell merchandise. You ask them for a price, and all they'll give you >is list. They insist on playing games with you, trying to see how much >they can get out of you (shades of used car salesmen). I realize that >these guys have to make a profit, but why can't they just quote me their >best price in the beginning rather than making me propose a price and telling >me that my proposal is too low? If I ever find another salesperson who >will play straight with me and quote me the best price in the beginning, I'll >stick with his store (even if they charge me a little more than somebody >else's lowest price). It's just not worth the extra $50 to $100 dollars I'd >save to subject myself to the hassle of bargaining with the salesman. > >I'd be interested in hearing other people's feelings about this. Fortunately I've got four stores in my area that will give me the straight story - 5th String, Subway Guitars, Lundberg's Stringed Instruments, and Music Works. Unlike most music stores, 5S and MW both tag everything with the real price, a practice I seek out. Unfortunately, I've had to deal with the typical music store sales types too. I have two basic strategies for *new* equipment. 1) Shop at multiple stores, and tell them all that I will buy from the *first* person to give me a good deal. I won't take a good price and shop it around to see if somebody can shave two dollars off it. I do tell salesfolks that I'm shopping around, but I won't tell one store another store's price quote. I try to keep it clear and simple - "I don't want to haggle - just give me your best deal up front and if it's a good deal you'll get my business." If they really won't give me a good deal, I leave. 2) Ask list price, subtract 30%, and refuse to pay any more than that. (Sales tax is on top of that price.) When I'm trying to choose between various brands and models, I only ask list price. After I make up my mind, I'll frequently say something like "I assume I can get (whatever) for 30% off." 25% to 30% off is a reasonably fair discount for most major purchases. Little things like strings and cords should be available for 50% off. Subway Guitars sells guitar strings for $1.50 per set. Singles are 25cents for unwound, 50cents for wound. This is an extremely good deal, but most music shops have frequent sales at 2 for the price of one. One store used to always sell strings at 3 sets for the price of one (a 67% discount), and the owner was still making a profit on them (they haven't done this since they changed management). About 1) and 2) I do this all in a friendly, matter of fact manner. If you're arrogant and demanding, you probably won't get a good deal (and you won't deserve one either). Used gear is harder because it doesn't have a list price. But with some research you can find out what fair market value is for commonly available gear. Then you simply have to have the patience to hunt for a seller willing to sell to you at that price. About bargaining in general: 1) You want to avoid it. 2) The first person to quote actual dollar amounts is the loser. 3) The buyer is the loser because they don't the rock-bottom price that the store will settle for. __ _ _ Bob Arnold Ingres Corp. |/ \ / \ / \| 1080 Marina Village Parkway | / / | Alameda, CA, 94501 | \__/ \__/| rca@rtech.com 415/748-2819
henrik@eddie.mit.edu (Larry DeLuca) (03/04/90)
Yow! Bad news. I'm surprised they don't refund your money just to smooth things over. Had 'Greg' dealt OK (and pushed the blame off on Robert Fisher) you'd probably be inclined to shop there again after receiving "a fair deal", no? The "No Refunds" contracts are pretty standard, though. The problem is, music stores are dealing with MUSICIANS! What are musicians? We are people who spend our lives, money, and energy making music. Consequently, we are often broke. There are even a few of us who (god forbid) are sufficiently unscrupulous (and/or broke) to "buy" equipment needed for a gig (instead of renting it) and then "return" it later because "it wasn't what I wanted". This costs the retail stores money (in hassle even if they can return to the mfgr. for full credit/repackaging) and so it makes life bad for everyone. Shop around before you make your next purchase. Find a store and a couple of salespeople you trust. Stick with them. I've purchased about $10K worth of stuff over the past year or two and I get excellent help and good advice. I picked up my last two samplers as discontinued (and used) items and have had nothing but the best luck. When my new sequencer spontaneously croaked six weeks after I bought it and I had already sent the warranty card in but I was desperate and couldn't stand to be without it for the four weeks it would take to be away they exchanged it for me anyway because I was a good customer. They also arranged for a loaner for me when my four-track was out of commission after a move. I've had lots of good experience with them and I keep going back (much to the dismay of my wallet ;-) ). larry...
wac@cci632.UUCP (William Christiano) (03/09/90)
Yes, it is a true problem in many places I understand. The only way you can get a good deal is if you KNOW SOMEBODY. The Great, Great, House of Guitars is a primo example. My brother and I priced a brand new Marshall full stack there. The total was around $2200! The Music Emporium catalog was selling the same thing for around $1800 including shipping. I do get great deals when I see my friend there, though. My wife and I got a new Roland Juno 1 for $600- $650, I can't quite remember, but the list was pushing $1000. I think they could be more competitive if the had some decent service, rather than the largest stock of musical instruments in the country, or world, or what ever it is. I just go there once in a while because my friend works there and he treats me well. Oh well ! I want to open my own store some day. Lets see if I remember my own words!
dts@quad.uucp (David T. Sandberg) (03/15/90)
In article <34938@cci632.UUCP> wac@ccird7.UUCP (William Christiano) writes: >Oh well ! I want to open my own store some day. Lets see if >I remember my own words! Hehe. Funny you should say that. When I was in high school, myself and one other person started a "pseudo-music store" which we referred to as Gemini Music (named after our high school band). We got the legal paperwork together (loopholes ;'), picked up a couple of easy dealerships, and sold to friends and locals (not very seriously, though - it was just for fun and for our own benefit). A few years later I was playing in a band fulltime, and Bruce (the band's bassist) and I were complaining about how no store would give us a straightforward deal on some new equipment we had been trying to pick up. Bruce said "someday we should start our own store, by and for musicians, that gives it's best prices fairly and up front". I thought about Gemini Music then, and said "Bruce, have I got a deal for you!" ;') To make a long story short, we got some loans and turned Gemini Music into a serious music store in Bruce's garage. Within two years the business had grown to the point where it knocked every other music store in town out of business, and where it had to be moved into a storefront of it's own. Around that time I cashed in my co-ownership to go wandering around the country playing in road bands, but Bruce stayed with it, and now, ten years later, Gemini Music is one of the most successful music stores in southern Minnesota. This is not an advertisement (that's why I haven't bothered to mention what city this store is in - if you want to know, write me email). Rather, it is intended as confirmation that a store can deal honestly with it's customers (Bruce had continued to follow that dictum to this day, to his credit) and still succeed (most impressively in this case). Maybe this will give others out there the courage to try the same thing someday (in which case we'd all be better off). -- David Sandberg, dts@quad.sialis.mn.org or ..uunet!rosevax!sialis!quad!dts "Hurry up and wait." .... "Dammit, I can't wait any faster!"