LARRY@JPL-VLSI.ARPA (04/23/84)
From: Larry Carroll <LARRY@JPL-VLSI.ARPA> I'm using an IBM 3032 under MVS for software development for the Galileo project (a Siamese-twin satellite, one of which will dive into Jupiter's atmospher). I am SICK AND TIRED of IBM JCL--at which, incidentally, I am an expert user (4 years worth). I also do work for another satellite project on a Univac 1100/81 and a VAX. Are there IBM and Univac versions of Unix that are reasonably close to the proprietary OSs in performance? If so, I may go on a crusade here at JPL to get Unix adopted as a "standard" operating system. Also, are there shells for the IBM and Univac that will emulate the proprietary TSO interfaces. (We use the SPF primarily on the several IBMs we have.) Thanks, Larry @ jpl-vlsi ------
ron@BRL-TGR.ARPA (04/25/84)
From: Ron Natalie <ron@BRL-TGR.ARPA> IBM and UNIVAC UNIX. Item number 1: IBM UNIX: There is no Unix for the 370 series from IBM (yet?). The product is UTS from Amdahl. It runs under VM so it is only useful if you are using VM (which you may be using already to support MVS). It seemed to be a pretty reasonable implementation when I tried it a while back. UNIVAC UNIX: This comes from AT&T. It's called UNIX/1100. It's a subsystem under OS/1100 (EXEC-8) and it's a bear. If you would like a UNIX like thing under wierd environments there is always Software Tools. -Ron (As the founders of Unix have stated: Using TSO is like kicking a dead whale down the beach).
sdo@u1100a.UUCP (Scott Orshan) (05/02/84)
[FYI - The UNIVAC name is no more - it is now called Sperry] > UNIVAC UNIX: This comes from AT&T. It's called UNIX/1100. >It's a subsystem under OS/1100 (EXEC-8) and it's a bear. Just a comment from a developer of The UNIX Time-sharing System for Sperry 1100 Series Computers (its official name). This version was thrown together three years ago. It in no way represents the state of the product today (as developed by Bell Communications Research for one of the Bell Operating Companies' internal products). Unfortunately, today's version is not being marketed. The one you get from AT&T is the same one given to them back then. That version is responsible for the bad reputation we have. All I can recommend is that 1100 sites bug their Sperry Reps. and let them know that it is important that they have a UNIX system that works. Scott Orshan Bell Communications Research 201-981-3064 {ihnp4,allegra,pyuxn}!u1100a!sdo
aef@shell.UUCP (Art Feather) (05/02/84)
UTS for "Amdahl-compatible" machines will be available as a "native"
system with the release of System V UTS.
It may not operate in ALL non-Amdahl systems due to the reduced error
handling that exists at present. In IBM VM systems, the core
operating system is relied upon for most of the restarting, etc.
--
Art Feather [713-663-2335] {ihnp4,pur-ee,ut-sally,sequent,psuvax}!shell!aefzben@umcp-cs.UUCP (05/03/84)
[There is a large, oversized SHell between you and your Unix...]
Credentials: Systems Programmer on Univac 1100s since 1972.
Paper published in CACM June 1975.
Implementor of Software Tools version for Univac 1100
currently distributed by software tools user's group.
Scuttlebutt (private communication with Univac insider) claims Univac
bought Unix back from Bell and is developing it internally. Article
for which this is a followup claims Bell is developing it internally.
All that follows is based upon the version we have (but do not run)
here at UOM.
Its pretty amazing folks. They actually do all of Unix, including raw IO
to terminals (if you run a Unix CCR) and the stopping and single-stepping
of processes. Sort of. Only one process on the whole machine seems to be
able to do it, but this is more an indictment of the Univac interprocess
communication mechanism (or lack of same) than anything else.
Still, you're going to be able to run just about half as many users under
Unix as you could under the bare operating system. This might not be that
unreasonable. I have it on good authority (from performance analysis freaks)
that on a 4341 you waste about half your cycles by using VM rather than one
of the more efficient IBM operating systems, and (from another source)
that you can run about double the number of users on your vaxen were you
to run VMS rather than Unix.
There are also enormous gaping security holes in Univac Unix. This might
not bother you terribly much as Unix seems to be wide open anyway, but
consider the fact that I can write a 3 line C program that destroys an
entire filesystem and there is nothing the system can do to prevent it.
(For those who would understand, try CSF$('@FREE,D <FILESYSTEMNAME>.').
There are some things that could be done to improve both the performance
and security of this product. Undoutably Bell is working on it. Again
rumor is that 50 users totally saturate an 1100/84, while we were running
177 on our 1100/82 (half as many CPUs) yesterday afternoon. I'm sure Bell
doesn't like this any more than I do. Perhaps more importantly, Univac
seems to be "migrating" its operating system to be able to do the things
that Unix needs to do to improve both its performance and security. About
two or three years down the pike Unix might be a very respectable product.
I guess you pays your money and takes your chances. You have a tradeoff
between absolute number of users you can handle, and what those users can
do once they get on. Security may or may not be important in your
particular environment. Each site must make its own choice...
--
Ben Cranston ...seismo!umcp-cs!zben zben@umd2.ARPAjoec@u1100a.UUCP (Joe Carfagno) (05/03/84)
[FYI - The UNIVAC name is no more - it is now called Sperry] > UNIVAC UNIX: This comes from AT&T. It's called UNIX/1100. >It's a subsystem under OS/1100 (EXEC-8) and it's a bear. Just another comment from a developer/manager of The UNIX Time-Sharing System for Sperry 1100 Series Computers (its official name). Scott Orshan's comments are correct. That 'bear' is three years old; the more current systems are internal only. That 'bear' and its successor systems have been responsible for the development of a very large (>1 million lines of C code) software system for the Bell Operating Companies. That system was developed on time, on schedule, within budget, etc., lacking all the traditional problems of large software systems. Joseph A. Carfagno Bell Communications Research 201-981-7471 {ihnp4,allegra,pyuxn}!u1100a!joec