sef@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) (12/17/90)
Not meaning to be disrepectful to either the author nor Rich, but trn was the *worst* package I've ever played with from the net. The first postings weren't workable, *period*, and, even after I got the reposted parts nine and ten, it *still* died when unsharing. So I didn't bother with the posted version, but got a version from off of tut.cis.ohio-state (good folks there...). That one I managed to compile, and has worked quite well on kithrup. At work, however, where we use NNTP, and I was far behind in some groups, trn gets a SIGSEGV and dies. At first, I thought it had to do with being, oh, 340+ articles behind, but, tonight, when I was reading comp.arch, where I had (originally) 66 unread articles, I managed to get throuh 22 of them, and then it core dumped between one article and the next. My next complaint with it is that it has the articles in reverse order when listing them for thread selection, and if you bypass that, you are at the last article, instead of the first. The author has not replied to any of my messages; several of them, in fact, bounced, because they could not be delivered in three days. I *really* like trn; I've become habituated to it, in fact. But it is not usable as it is, and should not have been released to c.s.u; it should have been sent out to alt.sources, and gone through at least one more beta period. Also, the author should be responsive towards email, assuming he gets it. If he's not getting it, then he should do something about *that*. (I know, I know: bitch, bitch, bitch...) -- Sean Eric Fagan | "I made the universe, but please don't blame me for it; sef@kithrup.COM | I had a bellyache at the time." -----------------+ -- The Turtle (Stephen King, _It_) Any opinions expressed are my own, and generally unpopular with others.
tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen) (12/18/90)
From the keyboard of sef@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan):
:I *really* like trn; I've become habituated to it, in fact. But it is not
:usable as it is, and should not have been released to c.s.u; it should have
:been sent out to alt.sources, and gone through at least one more beta
:period. Also, the author should be responsive towards email, assuming he
:gets it. If he's not getting it, then he should do something about *that*.
This is unclear. I have used it for a long time now, since well before
its release, and I've *NEVER* had the problems you describe. In fact, to
my perception, it's been as robust as rn (more so in a couple way -- he
fixed some rn bug along the way). Your milage, of course, may bery, and
probably does since you're on a different hardware/software platform.
Again, I don't have troubles with mail to Davison, but haven't tried in a
few weeks. Let's try not to be looking the gift horse in the mouth.
I, too, have become hopelessly habituated to trn. I'd been mumbling
things to Larry Wall for well over a year about what I thought trees
of messages should work like, but Larry had embarked upon the Perlian
Way (at least partially in order to rewrite rn!) and has still not
emerged. :-) Davison implemented very close to what I wanted. All
I want now are two little things:
following threads between groups
a newsgroup selection menu
--tom
--
Tom Christiansen tchrist@convex.com convex!tchrist
"With a kernel dive, all things are possible, but it sure makes it hard
to look at yourself in the mirror the next morning." -mepjg@acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham) (12/18/90)
sef@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) writes: |I *really* like trn; I've become habituated to it, in fact. But it is not |usable as it is, and should not have been released to c.s.u; it should have |been sent out to alt.sources, and gone through at least one more beta |period. Also, the author should be responsive towards email, assuming he |gets it. If he's not getting it, then he should do something about *that*. ordinarily this should be answered via mail but recent discussions about c.s.u unix prompt me to suggest that this is: 1) probably a failure on the part of the installer. 2) a rather unrealistic view of comp.sources.unix. 3) probably a rather unrealistic view of the world in general. needless to say trn has worked fine here since august, both before and after patch1. -- pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu / rutgers!ub!pjg / pjg@ubvms (Bitnet) opinions found above are mine unless marked otherwise.
sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) (12/18/90)
In article <52097@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham) writes: >ordinarily this should be answered via mail but recent discussions about >c.s.u unix prompt me to suggest that this is: >1) probably a failure on the part of the installer. Heh. I'm not Chris Torek, but I'm not shabby. I haven't had time to track down the sigsegv yet, but expect to as soon as I have a weekend free. In the mean time, try getting the files as posted, even the updates, and merely running them through 'sh'. They won't work. >2) a rather unrealistic view of comp.sources.unix. Not really. c.s.u is supposed do minimal testing; *any* moderator should do minimal testing, at least to the point where the problems with unpacking trn wouldn't have shown up. I am not exaggerating in any way, shape, form when I say that trn could not be successfully unpacked. >3) probably a rather unrealistic view of the world in general. Not really. Once again: if you release something through c.s.u (as opposed to alt.sources), you should expect to be expected to provide at least minimal support. Not *one* of the messages I've sent through email has gotten a reply, and it's been a week or two now. >needless to say trn has worked fine here since august, both before and >after patch1. Really? You got it off of the latest c.s.u post in august? How, pray tell, did you manage that? Tachyonic ethernet? -- Sean Eric Fagan | "I made the universe, but please don't blame me for it; sef@kithrup.COM | I had a bellyache at the time." -----------------+ -- The Turtle (Stephen King, _It_) Any opinions expressed are my own, and generally unpopular with others.
chip@tct.uucp (Chip Salzenberg) (12/19/90)
According to sef@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan): >Not meaning to be disrepectful to either the author nor Rich, but trn was >the *worst* package I've ever played with from the net. And similarly without disrespect, Sean must not have played with sources from the same newtwork as I have. It's true that trn has problems, but let's not exaggerate its faults beyond the truth. >My next complaint with it is that it has the articles in reverse order when >listing them for thread selection, and if you bypass that, you are at the >last article, instead of the first. I don't understand this complaint; my thread selection seems to be in increasing order by posting date. -- Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT <chip@tct.uucp>, <uunet!pdn!tct!chip> "Please don't send me any more of yer scandalous email, Mr. Salzenberg..." -- Bruce Becker
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery KB8JRR) (12/19/90)
As quoted from <1990Dec17.101920.11244@kithrup.COM> by sef@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan): +--------------- | At work, however, where we use NNTP, and I was far behind in some groups, | trn gets a SIGSEGV and dies. At first, I thought it had to do with being, | oh, 340+ articles behind, but, tonight, when I was reading comp.arch, where | I had (originally) 66 unread articles, I managed to get throuh 22 of them, | and then it core dumped between one article and the next. +--------------- I can't speak to other problems, but I've been using trn for quite some time (I was a beta tester) and in fact used it to catch up on 2 months of backlog with no problems. trn is quite stable on ncoast, and was stable on telotech until I was forced to ditch news there. +--------------- | My next complaint with it is that it has the articles in reverse order when | listing them for thread selection, and if you bypass that, you are at the | last article, instead of the first. +--------------- ??? I have never experienced this. -- Me: Brandon S. Allbery VHF/UHF: KB8JRR on 220, 2m, 440 Internet: allbery@NCoast.ORG Packet: KB8JRR @ WA8BXN America OnLine: KB8JRR AMPR: KB8JRR.AmPR.ORG [44.70.4.88] uunet!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery Delphi: ALLBERY
sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) (12/19/90)
In article <276E7E41.24A0@tct.uucp> chip@tct.uucp (Chip Salzenberg) writes: >And similarly without disrespect, Sean must not have played with >sources from the same newtwork as I have. I don't grab most things, since I tend to not have time recently to play with them. Instead, I read about things from various groups, and if it sounds interesting and useful, I get it from some other route. >It's true that trn has problems, but let's not exaggerate its faults >beyond the truth. The fact that the first posting was *completely* unusable is not exaggeration? Everyone I've talked to or who has posted has said the same thing, that it wouldn't successfully unpack. The "fixed" postings didn't help me. >I don't understand this complaint; my thread selection seems to be in >increasing order by posting date. It's entirely possible that the version I have (which I got from tut.cis.ohio-state.edu, not the net) is older, and this was changed. Note that, once a thread is selected, the messages are presented in the correct order. But the thread selection menu is in reverse order, and, when I quit out of it, I seem to be at the last article, not the first. -- Sean Eric Fagan | "I made the universe, but please don't blame me for it; sef@kithrup.COM | I had a bellyache at the time." -----------------+ -- The Turtle (Stephen King, _It_) Any opinions expressed are my own, and generally unpopular with others.
pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham) (12/20/90)
sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) writes: |chip@tct.uucp (Chip Salzenberg) writes: |>It's true that trn has problems, but let's not exaggerate its faults |>beyond the truth. | |The fact that the first posting was *completely* unusable is not |exaggeration? if the milkman breaks the milk bottle do you blame the cow? -- pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu / rutgers!ub!pjg / pjg@ubvms (Bitnet) opinions found above are mine unless marked otherwise.
sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) (12/20/90)
In article <52516@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham) writes: >if the milkman breaks the milk bottle do you blame the cow? Improper analogy. In this case, there were two people to blame: the author, and Rich Salz. The author improperly packaged the program, and Rich didn't catch it until a few days after it was posted (by which time, I'm sure, lots and lots of people had flooded his mailbox). After grabbing the "fixed" version, it still would not unpack for me. So, yes, I blame the cow, and I also blame the milkman. Why has the author not responded? Now, why don't you go back and read *all* of the posts I've made on this subject? Or is it too much trouble for you? -- Sean Eric Fagan | "I made the universe, but please don't blame me for it; sef@kithrup.COM | I had a bellyache at the time." -----------------+ -- The Turtle (Stephen King, _It_) Any opinions expressed are my own, and generally unpopular with others.
rsalz@bbn.com (Rich Salz) (12/21/90)
The posting had errors, you had to unpack both the orig and the reposted part 9. Applying patch 1 was apparently beyond the abilities of MANY people who picked up the package. Look for a TOTAL REPOST of trn AT PATCHLEVEL 1 at the end of December. /r$ -- Please send comp.sources.unix-related mail to rsalz@uunet.uu.net. Use a domain-based address or give alternate paths, or you may lose out.
woods@eci386.uucp (Greg A. Woods) (12/21/90)
In article <1990Dec19.082237.5027@kithrup.COM> sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) writes: > The fact that the first posting was *completely* unusable is not > exaggeration? Everyone I've talked to or who has posted has said the same > thing, that it wouldn't successfully unpack. The "fixed" postings didn't > help me. It wasn't exactly straight forward, but I got it un-packed and patched within about 20 minutes. Then again, I might have even done it the hard way. All I did was unpack the original, then unpacked the reposted parts, and I may have re-done part10 a second time by fooling it into thinking it wasn't un-packed yet. I can't remember exactly, but it was very obvious from the files which ones had to be re-done. I was a bit paranoid about the patch, but it seems to have worked. The instructions were certainly lacking! As for building and using it, well, I've not tried that yet. With rn-4.4 imminently available, I'd just as soon wait 'til the threads stuff can be re-patched onto 4.4. (Hopefully this is what will be done!) Besides, we don't have enough disk space to even use the threads option just yet! -- Greg A. Woods woods@{eci386,gate,robohack,ontmoh,tmsoft}.UUCP ECI and UniForum Canada +1-416-443-1734 [h] +1-416-595-5425 [w] VE3TCP Toronto, Ontario CANADA Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible-ORWELL
chip@tct.uucp (Chip Salzenberg) (12/22/90)
According to sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan): >The fact that the first posting was *completely* unusable is not >exaggeration? No, that's not an exaggeration. >The "fixed" postings didn't help me. This, however, is. :-) Unpacking the original 09 and the new 09, and then lopping off the redundant third half (:-)) of one module, made everything right. That's what I'm running now. -- Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT <chip@tct.uucp>, <uunet!pdn!tct!chip> "Please don't send me any more of yer scandalous email, Mr. Salzenberg..." -- Bruce Becker
pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham) (12/22/90)
sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) writes: |pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham) writes: | |In the |mean time, try getting the files as posted, even the updates, and merely |running them through 'sh'. They won't work. this doesn't have anything to do with what's being discussed. perhaps you should reread the relevant articles. | |>2) a rather unrealistic view of comp.sources.unix. | |Not really. c.s.u is supposed do minimal testing; *any* moderator should do |minimal testing, at least to the point where the problems with unpacking trn |wouldn't have shown up. please show me the document that delineates the exact responsibilities of the moderator. in any case r$ may have tested it, found that it worked and then had a (rare) failure in his packaging tools. |I am not exaggerating in any way, shape, form when I say that trn could not |be successfully unpacked. so what. you said the software was unusable. that's not true. you may have had problems, i didn't. |>3) probably a rather unrealistic view of the world in general. | |Not really. Once again: if you release something through c.s.u (as opposed |to alt.sources), you should expect to be expected to provide at least |minimal support. Not *one* of the messages I've sent through email has |gotten a reply, and it's been a week or two now. i'm imagine that this assertertion is based in the same document you have that describes the moderators duties. | |>needless to say trn has worked fine here since august, both before and |>after patch1. | |Really? You got it off of the latest c.s.u post in august? How, pray tell, |did you manage that? Tachyonic ethernet? no, i got a copy of the sources when they were sent to c.s.u via another channel as any number of other satisfied trn users did. |Sean Eric Fagan | "I made the universe, but please don't blame me for it; |sef@kithrup.COM | I had a bellyache at the time." |Any opinions expressed are my own, and generally unpopular with others. i see. -- pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu / rutgers!ub!pjg / pjg@ubvms (Bitnet) opinions found above are mine unless marked otherwise.
pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham) (12/22/90)
sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) writes: | pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham) writes: |>if the milkman breaks the milk bottle do you blame the cow? | |Improper analogy. In this case, there were two people to blame: the |author, and Rich Salz. The author improperly packaged the program, and Rich |didn't catch it until a few days after it was posted (by which time, I'm |sure, lots and lots of people had flooded his mailbox). After grabbing the |"fixed" version, it still would not unpack for me. let's try this again. i got the same sources r$ did. i didn't have any trouble. r$ acknowleged the problem and (at least according to some people) fixed it. or are you assuming that r$ just took the stuff and shoved it out without even unpacking it? and then somehow managed to come up with a fix that has worked for at least one other person? |So, yes, I blame the cow, and I also blame the milkman. Why has the author |not responded? well it might be because although you're really an unpleasant person you play one on the net. |Now, why don't you go back and read *all* of the posts I've made on this |subject? Or is it too much trouble for you? now why don't you go back and read *all* the posts i've made on this subject as well as what other folks have posted. or is it too much trouble for you? |Sean Eric Fagan | "I made the universe, but please don't blame me for it; |sef@kithrup.COM | I had a bellyache at the time." |Any opinions expressed are my own, and generally unpopular with others. no doubt. -- pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu / rutgers!ub!pjg / pjg@ubvms (Bitnet) opinions found above are mine unless marked otherwise.
bill@bilver.uucp (Bill Vermillion) (12/25/90)
In article <3130@litchi.bbn.com> rsalz@bbn.com (Rich Salz) writes: >The posting had errors, you had to unpack both the orig and the reposted part 9. > Which didn't help at all for automatic archiving systems. The repost wiped out the orginal. I suggest reposts need something added to their name if it is NOT a complete direct replacement. eg part09a. So I got the original, and the repost clobbered it. I can not fault the archiving tool, but the fact that the repost needed (as you indicated) both the orginal and the repost. I have it running from the uunet sources, and I am very happy with trn. -- Bill Vermillion - UUCP: uunet!tarpit!bilver!bill : bill@bilver.UUCP
andrew@acwbust.incom.de (Andrew Wheadon) (12/31/90)
In article <2772593B.BF3@tct.uucp> chip@tct.uucp (Chip Salzenberg) writes: >According to sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan): >>The fact that the first posting was *completely* unusable is not >>exaggeration? > >No, that's not an exaggeration. > >>The "fixed" postings didn't help me. > Have I missed something ? Since I installed trn without any problems, and till now I haven't noticed any errors, I have not seen any patches. What are the bugs ? Are the patches necessary or can I just continue using it the way it's running now ? Bye Andrew ---------- no sig's a good sig :-)
sob@tmc.edu (Stan Barber) (12/31/90)
In article <1990Dec17.101920.11244@kithrup.COM> sef@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) writes: >Also, the author should be responsive towards email, assuming he >gets it. If he's not getting it, then he should do something about *that*. As announced about two months ago, Wayne was in an auto accident and was in a bad way for awhile. I have seen mail from him, but it make still be the case that he is not close to his mail. Also, if SCO were providing this package, your expectations would be reasonable but trn (like rn) is free and the author may have to do something to make a living that make make it impossible to respond. In this particular case, he may need to do something to get well. I don't know what Wayne's current state is, but let's not get into another mud slinging frenzy like the c.s.u. flame war. -- Stan internet: sob@bcm.tmc.edu Director, Networking Olan uucp: {rutgers,mailrus}!bcm!sob and Systems Support Barber Opinions expressed are only mine. Baylor College of Medicine
sef@kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan) (12/31/90)
In article <3411@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> sob@tmc.edu (Stan Barber) writes: >In article <1990Dec17.101920.11244@kithrup.COM> sef@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) writes: >>Also, the author should be responsive towards email, assuming he >>gets it. If he's not getting it, then he should do something about *that*. > >As announced about two months ago, Wayne was in an auto accident and was in >a bad way for awhile. I have seen mail from him, but it make still be the >case that he is not close to his mail. My condolences. trn's many problems are almost excusable, then. (The posting probelms aren't, but the code problems are.) If Wayne is reading this, once again: I *love* trn. I'm even using it to read my mail now (I was bored, so made my mail pipe into a local newsgroup 8-)). It's great, wonderful, slices, dices, etc. -- Sean Eric Fagan | "I made the universe, but please don't blame me for it; sef@kithrup.COM | I had a bellyache at the time." -----------------+ -- The Turtle (Stephen King, _It_) Any opinions expressed are my own, and generally unpopular with others.
davison@dri.com (Wayne Davison) (01/01/91)
Sean Eric Fagan (sef@kithrup.com) wrote: > The author has not replied to any of my messages; several of them, in fact, > bounced, because they could not be delivered in three days. There are a number of contributing factors to my absence. First and fore- most I have changed jobs and no longer have usenet access. I'm working on this, but my current plans don't involve having frequent access to a un*x system (sigh). To try to combat this, I've been mailing people about helping me with certain areas of trn development. If I have any volunteers, let me know. Also, "drivax" just stopped being a BSD 4.3 system and is now an Ultrix microvax. In the process a few things were temporarily messed up, some news and mail were lost, etc. I never even saw the posting of trn to comp.sources.unix. > I *really* like trn; I've become habituated to it, in fact. But it is not > usable as it is, and should not have been released to c.s.u; it should have > been sent out to alt.sources, and gone through at least one more beta > period. In my defense, the NNTP code is quite a recent addition to trn. The majority of the beta sites were not NNTP users, and the NNTP code needs some work. I've only used it to test it. (I'm looking for actual NNTP sites to help me out here.) The rest of trn was thoroughly beta tested. Even with that, a late-in-the-game fix to the interrupt handler has caused some sites to generate tons of ** interrupt 11 ** filler to the mt.log file. This is high on my priority list to fix. > My next complaint with it is that it has the articles in reverse order when > listing them for thread selection, and if you bypass that, you are at the > last article, instead of the first. This totally confuses me. Trn's thread selector lists articles in date order. What do you type to bypass the threads selection? Return from the last page? (Not a good choice.) Try typing tab. (Mail sent to the following address will be seen MUCH sooner than mail to the reply address.) -- \ /| / /|\/ /| /(_) Wayne Davison (_)/ |/ /\|/ / |/ \ 0004475895@mcimail.com (W A Y N e) ...!uunet!mcimail.com!0004475895
davison@dri.com (Wayne Davison) (01/02/91)
Stan kindly points out:
> As announced about two months ago, Wayne was in an auto accident
This is true. It was about four months ago when a pickup truck tried to
take me out head-on, and it's a miracle that I escaped the crash with such
minor injuries (comparatively). The only long-lasting injury is to my left
elbow (sigh -- no volleyball for *quite* some time). I'm doing much better
now, thanks.
The accident only took me out for about two months from typing. The latter
two months of silence have been due to moving north to work for Borland. I
don't yet have a usenet connection (except for this sparotic long-distance
access) and didn't even have time to try until just recently. I hopefully
will be on the air in the next couple weeks. I also hope to come out with
patch #2 for trn sometime this month. Keep your fingers crossed. (People
volunteering fixes will definitely speed things up -- mail me about it.)
Please send mail to my mcimail account. Thanx.
--
\ /| / /|\/ /| /(_) Wayne Davison
(_)/ |/ /\|/ / |/ \ 0004475895@mcimail.com
(W A Y N e) ...!uunet!mcimail.com!0004475895