wayne@fmsrl7.UUCP (//ichael R. //ayne) (08/28/87)
MH is a fabulous mail handling system if you get lots of mail.
Having used it, I find other mailers intolerable (elm is particularly
infuriating). Unfortunately, the developers REALLY want you to run
sendmail as a transport agent. The documentation claims that MH can run
without it but it doesn't really work. If only MH could use smail as
a transport agent, things would be much simpler but I haven't heard much
going on along those lines.
If you are on a BSD machine and you get a lot of mail, try MH.
If you are on a System V machine and you have sendmail, contact me (I
want it BAAAD) and get MH. If you are stuck with System V and no sendmail,
it might still be worthwhile but it's a lot of headaches.
--
Michael R. Wayne *** TMC & Associates *** Arpa: wayne@ford-vax.arpa
uucp: {philabs | pyramid} !fmsrl7!wayne OR wayne@fmsrl7.UUCPkehres@lll-tis.arpa (Tim Kehres) (08/28/87)
In article <1518@fmsrl7.UUCP> wayne@fmsrl7.UUCP (/\/\ichael R. \/\/ayne) writes: > > MH is a fabulous mail handling system if you get lots of mail. > Having used it, I find other mailers intolerable (elm is particularly > infuriating). I think Dave Taylor's comments should apply here also. If you dislike the way a given piece of software runs (as it appears you do), please also include some description of what it is you dislike about the software, and if possible, some suggestions for the improvement of that software. There are a lot of folks running elm and from what I have heard, most are quite happy with it. As with most software, there is probably some room for improvement, but the best way that the developers (or maintainers) can decide what to improve, they many times rely on constructive feedback from the user community. > Unfortunately, the developers REALLY want you to run > sendmail as a transport agent. The documentation claims that MH can run > without it but it doesn't really work. I have heard that it also works quite well with mmdf. Anyone running this wish to comment??? > If you are on a BSD machine and you get a lot of mail, try MH. > If you are on a System V machine and you have sendmail, contact me (I > want it BAAAD) and get MH. If you have access to the arpanet, there is a copy of the sendmail sources on one of the Berkeley machines. Tim Kehres Control Data Corporation / Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory ----------------------------------------------------------------- UUCP: {ames,ihnp4!ptsfa}!lll-tis!kehres ARPA: kehres@lll-tis.ARPA AT&T: (415) 463-6852
wayne@fmsrl7.UUCP (09/01/87)
In article <8708270054.AA02979@ephemeral.ai.toronto.edu> lamy@ai.toronto.edu (Jean-Francois Lamy) writes: >In fact, there is no real reason either why you can't have the best of all >worlds. This message is composed in a MH mode in GNU-emacs (with roughly the >same features as mailtool), will be processed by the standard Unix sendmail, ^^^^^^^ Right. "Standard" if you have BSD. What about all the poor suckers out there that have System V (like me)? We end up with a broken mailer that taunts us with wonderful promises but fails to deliver (pun intended). Why can't Rand/UCI/someone make MH run without depending on sendmail (on top of smail, for example)? Trying to run on a SysV box without sendmail is pure hell. If anything else came close, I would switch immediately but I'm spoiled by the parts that do work. -- Michael R. Wayne *** TMC & Associates *** Arpa: wayne@ford-vax.arpa uucp: {philabs | pyramid} !fmsrl7!wayne OR wayne@fmsrl7.UUCP
marvit@hplabsb.UUCP (09/01/87)
<Regarding someone's lack of sendmail on System V> > Why can't Rand/UCI/someone make MH run without depending on sendmail (on > top of smail, for example)? Trying to run on a SysV box without sendmail > is pure hell. If anything else came close, I would switch immediately > but I'm spoiled by the parts that do work. Short ad: HP is (mostly) system V and runs sendmail. Demand same from your SysV UNIX box vendor. $$ talks! Re MH: Source is in the public domain and is now administered by anarchy since the original progenators have cut their umbilical cords. MH in fact runs with mmdf and its own transport system, including through UUCP via rmail. If it doesn't work on your site, make sure you have MH6.5, with the latest patches and make sure you've compiled with the appropriate switches. Then, if you still don't like the way it works, feel free to change it and send the changes to the free world. MH only runs *better* with sendmail ;-) -Peter Marvit HP Labs
wayne@fmsrl7.UUCP (//ichael R. //ayne) (09/04/87)
In article <21683@lll-tis.arpa> kehres@lll-tis.arpa (Tim Kehres) writes: >In article <1518@fmsrl7.UUCP> wayne@fmsrl7.UUCP(/\/\ichael R. \/\/ayne) writes: >> >> MH is a fabulous mail handling system if you get lots of mail. >> Having used it, I find other mailers intolerable (elm is particularly >> infuriating). > >I think Dave Taylor's comments should apply here also. If you dislike >the way a given piece of software runs (as it appears you do), please also >include some description of what it is you dislike about the software, and >if possible, some suggestions for the improvement of that software. There >are a lot of folks running elm and from what I have heard, most are quite >happy with it. As with most software, there is probably some room for >improvement, but the best way that the developers (or maintainers) can >decide what to improve, they many times rely on constructive feedback from >the user community. Although I could probably write a 25 page response to this, it would be useless. The elm manual even suggests that MH is preferred if you recieve a lot of mail (in the section discussing other mailers). This implies that the author is already familiar with MH, knows it's advantages and chose not to implement them. I suppose that I should mention a few specific complaints. Elm likes to use 1 file to hold a folder, MH uses a directory (like news). Loading a 850K folder(my inbox, for example) with elm takes a LONG time. Elm believes in "hiding" the header info from the user when composing a message, assuming that you typed it in correctly when you started. No recursive folders (without directories, this would be difficult), no filters (without sendmail), alias list is VERY limited (I tried to set up a simple, 25 person mailing list and it choked), minimal message manipulation commands (like, how do I link, not copy, a message into two folders?). In summary, elm is fine if you only get a few messages per day. For those people who get 250+ messages over a weekend, however, it just doesn't make it. On a vanilla SysV box, with the 1 meg file limitation, folders become useless real fast. I do like the "answering service" feature though, I suspect that this could be implemented in MH but have not tried. >> Unfortunately, the developers REALLY want you to run >> sendmail as a transport agent. The documentation claims that MH can run >> without it but it doesn't really work. > >I have heard that it also works quite well with mmdf. Anyone running this >wish to comment??? The MH installation guide suggests the following: sendmail - best mmdf - OK standalone (ie MH as a transport layer) - not recommneded >> If you are on a BSD machine and you get a lot of mail, try MH. >> If you are on a System V machine and you have sendmail, contact me (I >> want it BAAAD) and get MH. > >If you have access to the arpanet, there is a copy of the sendmail sources >on one of the Berkeley machines. I have source to sendmail, but it does not compile on either of my machines and I have not had the time to really dig into it. I have repeatedly posted requests for sendmail running on SysV. The only thing I have gotten back is a LOT of requests from other people that want it too (looks like a common problem). One person (mcvax!eiger!peter@uunet) sent me a shell script which is supposed to "replace" sendmail. I have not managed to get it to work for me, however (although I'm still working on it). -- Michael R. Wayne *** TMC & Associates *** Arpa: wayne@ford-vax.arpa uucp: {philabs | pyramid} !fmsrl7!wayne OR wayne@fmsrl7.UUCP
wayne@fmsrl7.UUCP (//ichael R. //ayne) (09/04/87)
In article <68200001@hplabsb.UUCP> marvit@hplabsb.UUCP (Peter Marvit) writes: ><Regarding someone's lack of sendmail on System V> > >> Why can't Rand/UCI/someone make MH run without depending on sendmail (on >> top of smail, for example)? Trying to run on a SysV box without sendmail >> is pure hell. If anything else came close, I would switch immediately >> but I'm spoiled by the parts that do work. > >Short ad: HP is (mostly) system V and runs sendmail. Demand same from >your SysV UNIX box vendor. $$ talks! Wanna post/mail the source? You could make a LOT of people happy. (Truth in advertising: Gotta watch those sweeping statements, the HP 9000/320 I work on does NOT have sendmail... :-) >Re MH: Source is in the public domain and is now administered by anarchy >since the original progenators have cut their umbilical cords. MH in fact >runs with mmdf and its own transport system, including through UUCP via >rmail. If it doesn't work on your site, make sure you have MH6.5, with the >latest patches and make sure you've compiled with the appropriate >switches. Then, if you still don't like the way it works, feel free to >change it and send the changes to the free world. MH only runs *better* >with sendmail ;-) Well, MH 6.1 would not run AT ALL with the MH transport system. I did spend a lot of time debugging/fixxing this until I found out that MH 6.5 was available. I picked it up via ftp from somewhere (forgot where) a while back (several months) thanx to a pointer from Ken Yap (seismo!rochester!ken). MH 6.5 works a bit better with the MH transport system but hooks do not work at all, mail gets dropped all over the system, strange messages do not get to their destinations. I managed to get onto the Internet mailing list, but they dropped me after about a week (can't say I blame them, ford-vax seems to disconnect from the net frequently). Got an offer from Brandon Allberry (allberry@ncoast) to help but he never answered my many pleas for help (even got me an account on ncoast just to send him mail). If there are patches to MH 6.5, I'd appreciate a pointer to them. In short, I'm still trying to make MH 6.5 work on a System V box with minimal luck so far. /\/\ \/\/ -- Michael R. Wayne *** TMC & Associates *** Arpa: wayne@ford-vax.arpa uucp: {philabs | pyramid} !fmsrl7!wayne OR wayne@fmsrl7.UUCP
galvin@udel.EDU (James M Galvin) (09/04/87)
In article <1866@fmsrl7.UUCP> wayne@fmsrl7.UUCP (/\/\ichael R. \/\/ayne) writes: >In article <21683@lll-tis.arpa> kehres@lll-tis.arpa (Tim Kehres) writes: >>In article <1518@fmsrl7.UUCP> wayne@fmsrl7.UUCP(/\/\ichael R. \/\/ayne) writes: >>> >>> MH is a fabulous mail handling system if you get lots of mail. I really must agree. The flexibility and tailorability possible is the single most appreciated element of MH to me. >>I have heard that it also works quite well with mmdf. Anyone running this >>wish to comment??? > > The MH installation guide suggests the following: > > sendmail - best > mmdf - OK > standalone (ie MH as a transport layer) - not recommneded I have never quite understood this. I run MMDF at our site, and have used MH since version 5 (2 1/2 years or so ago). I think that originally the developer/maintainer of MH was particularly familiar with MMDF and that is where that comment came from. The interactions with MMDF's submit process are not exactly obvious. Actually, if you let MMDF post mail via SMTP (even on the local host) I don't think it matters much what your transport system is. This is all just my opinion, of course. Jim <Galvin@udel.edu> -- James M Galvin
galvin@udel.EDU (James M Galvin) (09/04/87)
In article <1867@fmsrl7.UUCP> wayne@fmsrl7.UUCP (/\/\ichael R. \/\/ayne) writes: > Well, MH 6.1 would not run AT ALL with the MH transport system. >I did spend a lot of time debugging/fixxing this until I found out that >MH 6.5 was available. I picked it up via ftp from somewhere (forgot >where) a while back (several months) MH is available via anonymous ftp from the host louie.udel.edu "10.0.0.96", in the directory "portal" in the file "mh-6.5.tar". There is also a compressed version available. >If there are patches to MH 6.5, I'd appreciate a pointer to them. You have to be on the list to get patches. MH is essentially frozen at 6.5 as of June 1986. Only bug fixes provided by the "world at large" are available, and I don't know anyone collecting them and making them available. Jim -- James M Galvin
sl@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne) (09/05/87)
In article <1866@fmsrl7.UUCP> wayne@fmsrl7.UUCP (/\/\ichael R. \/\/ayne) writes: >In article <21683@lll-tis.arpa> kehres@lll-tis.arpa (Tim Kehres) writes: >>In article <1518@fmsrl7.UUCP> wayne@fmsrl7.UUCP(/\/\ichael R. \/\/ayne) writes: > I suppose that I should mention a few specific complaints. Elm ..... >difficult), no filters (without sendmail), alias list is VERY limited Filter works well if you have smail with the mod's to support mail to pipes (also known as the "Full Name mod's"). >(I tried to set up a simple, 25 person mailing list and it choked), Same mods to smail also handles mailing lists fine. -- {ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision,uunet}!van-bc!Stuart.Lynne Vancouver,BC,604-937-7532
rob@array.UUCP (Rob Marchand) (09/08/87)
In article <1866@fmsrl7.UUCP> wayne@fmsrl7.UUCP (/\/\ichael R. \/\/ayne) writes: >>If you have access to the arpanet, there is a copy of the sendmail sources >>on one of the Berkeley machines. > I have source to sendmail, but it does not compile on either of my >machines and I have not had the time to really dig into it. I have Is sendmail available to the public, or are you required to have a BSD license of some sort? I always thought that a BSD source license was required. I mean, if the thing is the be all and end all of address re-writing, maybe it should be fixed, or ported to SysV. I would be interested in having a look at it, anyways.... Rob M. -- Rob Marchand UUCP: {mnetor,utzoo}!lsuc!array!rob Array Systems Computing ARPA: rob%array.UUCP@uunet.UU.NET 200-5000 Dufferin Street Phone : +1(416)736-0900 Fax: (416) 736-4715 Downsview, Ont CANADA M3H 5T5 Telex : 063666 (CNCP EOS TOR) .TO 21:ARY001
tower@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Leonard H. Tower Jr.) (09/10/87)
In article <1700@fmsrl7.UUCP> wayne@fmsrl7.UUCP (Michael R. Wayne) writes: > In article <8708270054.AA02979@ephemeral.ai.toronto.edu> > lamy@ai.toronto.edu (Jean-Francois Lamy) writes: > > >In fact, there is no real reason either why you can't have the best of all > >worlds. This message is composed in a MH mode in GNU-emacs (with roughly > >the same features as mailtool), > >will be processed by the standard Unix sendmail, > ^^^^^^^ > Right. "Standard" if you have BSD. What about all the poor suckers out > there that have System V (like me)? We end up with a broken mailer that > taunts us with wonderful promises but fails to deliver (pun intended). > Why can't Rand/UCI/someone make MH run without depending on sendmail (on > top of smail, for example)? Trying to run on a SysV box without sendmail > is pure hell. If anything else came close, I would switch immediately > but I'm spoiled by the parts that do work. GNU Emacs has another mail front end: rmail-mode. The *Help* buffer for the mode is appended. rmail-mode is in the babyl family of mailers. It has many user settable variables, understand's /usr/ucb/Mail's ~/.mailrc aliases and it's very customizable (as it's almost entirely coded in GNU Emacs Lisp, and you get full source code). Its can be installed to work on both BSD and SysV systems, and could easily be made to work with other mail delivery and/or operating systems {assuming GNU Emacs is ported already ;-}. To get info on how to obtain GNU Emacs and the GNU Project ask: <gnu@prep.ai.mit.edu> enjoy -len ====================================================================== RMAIL Mode: Rmail Mode is used by M-x rmail for editing Rmail files. All normal editing commands are turned off. Instead, these commands are available: . Move point to front of this message (same as ESC <). SPC Scroll to next screen of this message. DEL Scroll to previous screen of this message. n Move to Next non-deleted message. p Move to Previous non-deleted message. M-n Move to Next message whether deleted or not. M-p Move to Previous message whether deleted or not. > Move to the last message in Rmail file. j Jump to message specified by numeric position in file. M-s Search for string and show message it is found in. d Delete this message, move to next nondeleted. C-d Delete this message, move to previous nondeleted. u Undelete message. Tries current message, then earlier messages till a deleted message is found. e Expunge deleted messages. s Expunge and save the file. q Quit Rmail: expunge, save, then switch to another buffer. C-x C-s Save without expunging. g Move new mail from system spool directory or mbox into this file. m Mail a message (same as C-x 4 m). c Continue composing outgoing message started before. r Reply to this message. Like m but initializes some fields. f Forward this message to another user. o Output this message to an Rmail file (append it). C-o Output this message to a Unix-format mail file (append it). i Input Rmail file. Run Rmail on that file. a Add label to message. It will be displayed in the mode line. k Kill label. Remove a label from current message. C-M-n Move to Next message with specified label (label defaults to last one specified). Standard labels: filed, unseen, answered, forwarded, deleted. Any other label is present only if you add it with `a'. C-M-p Move to Previous message with specified label C-M-h Show headers buffer, with a one line summary of each message. C-M-l Like h only just messages with particular label(s) are summarized. C-M-r Like h only just messages with particular recipient(s) are summarized. t Toggle header, show Rmail header if unformatted or vice versa. w Edit the current message. C-c C-c to return to Rmail. ====================================================================== Mail Mode: Major mode for editing mail to be sent. Like Text Mode but with these additional commands: C-c C-s mail-send (send the message) C-c C-c mail-send-and-exit C-c C-f move to a header field (and create it if there isn't): C-c C-f C-t move to To: C-c C-f C-s move to Subj: C-c C-f C-b move to BCC: C-c C-f C-c move to CC: C-c C-w mail-signature (insert ~/.signature at end). C-c C-y mail-yank-original (insert current message, in Rmail). C-c C-q mail-fill-yanked-message (fill what was yanked). -- Len Tower, Distributed Systems Group, Boston University, 111 Cummington Street, Boston, MA 02215, USA +1 (617) 353-2780 Home: 36 Porter Street, Somerville, MA 02143, USA +1 (617) 623-7739 UUCP: {}!harvard!bu-cs!tower INTERNET: tower@bu-cs.bu.edu