guest@frog.UUCP (RX/FTP user) (11/12/86)
I am attempting to contribute constructive verbosity to the net. However, in this learning curve, I am having trouble finding much on-line help to sort out questions I have. It would be very helpful if there were some help files in a central location for all to study at their leisure. My request: For someone (local, New England area) to contact me, preferably by phone @ (617)626-1177, with some sort of assistance for a newcomer. I thank any in advance for their helpfulness.
ciaraldi@rochester.ARPA (Mike Ciaraldi) (11/13/86)
In article <1123@frog.UUCP> jon@frog.UUCP (jon) writes: >I am attempting to contribute constructive verbosity to the net. >However, in this learning curve, I am having trouble finding much on-line >help to sort out questions I have. >It would be very helpful if there were some help files in a central location >for all to study at their leisure. Any new user should consult the articles in the newsgroup mod.announce.newusers These articles are re=posted every month or so, so that they should usually be avaialble. You will find an intro to the news system, etiquette, lists of newsgroups and their purposes, and other assorted tips. I am posting this because it seems many news users have not heard about this group. Mike Ciaraldi seismo!rochester!ciaraldi
werner@ut-ngp.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) (11/13/86)
In article <22384@rochester.ARPA>, ciaraldi@rochester.ARPA (Mike Ciaraldi) writes: > In article <1123@frog.UUCP> jon@frog.UUCP (jon) writes: > Any new user should consult the articles in the newsgroup > mod.announce.newusers > These articles are re=posted every month or so, so that > they should usually be available. I wonder if we could motivate *ALL* sites to retain articles in this group for, at least, 6 weeks ..... for obvious reasons!!!
jgd@uwmcsd1.UUCP (John G Dobnick) (11/14/86)
From previous articles we see the following: >> Any new user should consult the articles in the newsgroup > >> mod.announce.newusers > >> These articles are re=posted every month or so, so that >> they should usually be available. > > I wonder if we could motivate *ALL* sites to retain articles in this group > for, at least, 6 weeks ..... for obvious reasons!!! [Mounting High Horse] Time to once again suggest something *obvious*. The order of newsgroup presentation should be changed to display mod.announce.newusers >>*first*<<!! This will automatically make this information available to new users, without *any* action on their part. The "without *any* action on their part" is the operative part of the preceding statement. This small change will, by default, solve the majority of the "ignorance problem" for the unknowing new users. (I know it would have for me. I got burned [flamed?] for a breach of net.etiquette that I was unaware of because the "new users" articles arrived 2 weeks AFTER we were on the net.) Please note the following: mod.announce.newusers is displayed a *considerable* ways down the list of news groups -- certainly after all the comp.* groups, and after many of the mod.* groups. Placing mod.announce.newusers at the top of the list certainly seems a "user friendly" thing to do. Question for the net.gods: Can the "checkgroups" posting do this rearrangement automatically? If not, why not? Will it "break" anything? This seems, from my admittedly less than perfect vantage point, such a simple change for such general benefit. [Dismounting] So, what say you all? Is this a worthwhile suggestion, or am I merely all wet? -- John G Dobnick Computing Services Division @ University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee UUCP: ...ihnp4!uwmcsd1!jgd INTERNET: jgd@csd1.milw.wisc.edu -- -- John G Dobnick Computing Services Division @ University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee UUCP: ...ihnp4!uwmcsd1!jgd INTERNET: jgd@csd1.milw.wisc.edu
henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (11/15/86)
> Time to once again suggest something *obvious*. The order of newsgroup > presentation should be changed to display mod.announce.newusers >>*first*<<!! > This will automatically make this information available to new users... Sorry, wrong. It will do so *only* if they join the net by subscribing to "all" and then thinning things down thereafter. It is not uncommon for users to join much more selectively, picking and choosing groups. Such people *don't* get to see mod.announce.newusers automatically. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!henry
jgd@uwmcsd1.UUCP (John G Dobnick) (11/16/86)
> Xref: uwmacc news.misc:24 news.groups:12 > >> Time to once again suggest something *obvious*. The order of newsgroup >> presentation should be changed to display mod.announce.newusers >>*first*<<!! >> This will automatically make this information available to new users... > > Sorry, wrong. It will do so *only* if they join the net by subscribing to > "all" and then thinning things down thereafter. It is not uncommon for > users to join much more selectively, picking and choosing groups. Such > people *don't* get to see mod.announce.newusers automatically. > -- > Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology > {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!henry And I say that this will benefit at least *some* of the new users of the net. This will at least help *those* individuals onto the path of net.correctness. Saying that new net users join more selectively is giving them more sophistication than I think is warranted (at least in the context of the original discussion that caused me to mount my "high horse" in the first place.) I further say that any site administrators that discourage perusal of mod.announce.newusers, or that prevent its reception at their sites, are anti-net.social and irresponsible. (Note: *NO* :-) on that statement!) Finally, I say that anything this simple that has positive benefit to the net, and if anyone disagrees that this *does* have positive benefit they may discuss their reasons via e-mail, should be implemented. [Wasn't there a "feature" in 2.11 that would *forbid* the unsubscription to the *.announce.newusers group, or have I confused this with something else? If there is no such feature, maybe there *should* be.] Sorry about this, Henry, but your message came across as anti-help-the-new-user. Even if my suggestion does not help *all* new users, lets help at least *some* of them, OK? -- -- John G Dobnick Computing Services Division @ University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee UUCP: ...ihnp4!uwmcsd1!jgd INTERNET: jgd@csd1.milw.wisc.edu
henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (11/22/86)
[regarding putting mod.announce.newusers first in order] > And I say that this will benefit at least *some* of the new users of > the net. This will at least help *those* individuals onto the path > of net.correctness... True. But it won't get all the new users "automatically", as you suggested in your original posting. > Saying that new net users join more selectively > is giving them more sophistication than I think is warranted... On the contrary. Most new net users are unaware of the ability to unsubscribe, and think that what they get is what's listed in the "options -n" line in their .newsrc. This plus the massive volume of network traffic strongly encourages them *not* to just put "all" in that line, which means they get only the groups they explicitly select. > Finally, I say that anything this simple that has positive benefit to the > net, and if anyone disagrees that this *does* have positive benefit they > may discuss their reasons via e-mail, should be implemented. Positive benefit, yes, but it also has costs. The question is whether the benefit outweighs the costs. Considering the rather uncertain percentage of the new users who would actually be affected by it, this isn't clear. > [Wasn't there a "feature" in 2.11 that would *forbid* the unsubscription to > the *.announce.newusers group, or have I confused this with something else? > If there is no such feature, maybe there *should* be.] This would only encourage the more experienced users to hack their local news software to remove the restriction, since they don't really want to see the newusers stuff popping up in front of them again and again. We cannot control exactly what software people run; the most we can do is to supply reasonable software and hope that they won't feel motivated enough to mess with it. Persistent inconvenience to sophisticated users will supply all the motivation necessary. I laud the goal, but this is the wrong method. > Sorry about this, Henry, but your message came across as anti-help- > the-new-user. I agree that we need to help the new user more, but it isn't clear to me that this idea will be enough help to enough new users to justify it. > Even if my suggestion does not help *all* new users, lets help at least > *some* of them, OK? If it helps (say) 95% of new users, it would clearly be a good idea. If it only helps (say) 5% -- the ones who are already conscientious enough to look into a group for new users -- then I say it's not worth the hassle of implementing it and trying to get it widely used. I fear it's likely to be much closer to the latter than the former. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!henry