garvin@uhccux.UUCP (Jay Garvin) (04/04/88)
In article <1182@pembina.UUCP> cdshaw@alberta.UUCP (Chris Shaw) writes: >A couple of days ago I half-proposed the idea of a subgroup for comp.graphics >called comp.graphics.newuser. ... ....... >The purpose of the newsgroup is to deflect neophyte questions from the >Terribly Serious Business that goes on in comp.graphics. ...... I disagree with this sort of sentiment. As long as the question is within the realm of graphics, it should be valid for inclusion in this group. Please try to have an open mind and do not relegate the beginners out there to a separate group, for despite how "simple" a question might seem, there are often new approaches and new insights which come out in the responses. Remember that you may think that you already know all the groundwork and are working on advanced topics now, but there are those out there who might consider your "Serious Business" mere child's play. If you are terribly offended by "simple" questions, just use that key on your keyboard labeled 'n'. I think that little 'n' key has the ability to keep everybody happy. >The problem is that many neophyte readers find asking the net much easier than >reading the appropriate reference. Sometimes this is because the neophyte is >lazy, other times because he is otherwise unable to get the answers out of >a book, or is unaware of the literature. > I also wish we would see less of the "Go to the library and look it up yourself!" responses. You may be lucky enough to be at one of the major institutions or big cities which have libraries with millions of volumes and where it is fairly easy to get books on the subject, but please realize that there are people out there who do not have such easy access. Perhaps they would need to drive or walk several hours to a library to look for material, or perhaps they live in a foreign country where English language material is rare. The net allows them to get references to specific publications first, rather than say ordering a $50.00 book from a publishing company only to find that it is not what they wanted. And allows one to save hours and hours of bibliographical research if someone else has already compiled that information. If someone asks a trivial question, it is enough to say, "Well, there is an excellent book called "Intro to ...." by C. Graphics which will tell you the answer to that question as well as much more." and leave it at that. If the question is something you're really above, just skip it. right?? Aloha, -Jay "...just like livin' in paradise." -Diamond Dave +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jeffrey Jay Garvin _ | | Computer Specialist __| | _ Aloha! | | Interactive Services |__ |_| |__ | | University of Hawaii ____| ____| garvin@uhccux.BITNET | | Computing Center |__ _ |__ | | 2565 The Mall |_| | __| garvin@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu | | Keller Hall Rm 201 |_| | | Honolulu, HI 96822 USA | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ FROM UUCP: {ihnp4,uunet,dcdwest,ucbvax}!ucsd!nosc!uhccux!garvin
connors@uvm-gen.UUCP (The Unix Blizzard) (04/04/88)
In article <1720@uhccux.UUCP>, garvin@uhccux.UUCP (Jay Garvin) writes: > In article <1182@pembina.UUCP> cdshaw@alberta.UUCP (Chris Shaw) writes: > >The problem is that many neophyte readers find asking the net much easier than > >reading the appropriate reference. Sometimes this is because the neophyte is > >lazy, other times because he is otherwise unable to get the answers out of > >a book, or is unaware of the literature. > > > I also wish we would see less of the "Go to the library and look > it up yourself!" responses. You may be lucky enough to be at > one of the major institutions or big cities which have libraries > with millions of volumes and where it is fairly easy to get > books on the subject, but please realize that there are people > out there who do not have such easy access. Perhaps they would > need to drive or walk several hours to a library to look for > material, or ... Well spoken (written?) Jay. Try living in a state which is in some cases a technological desert. I love the state of Vermont, but for high or low power graphics there aren't enough available resources. There are no SIGGRAPH groups nearby. The University's library is not well stocked in computer graphics texts. Believe me, I have looked. I purchased a few books at 30-50 buck a whack to get me started. I could have used the money toward a good graphics library or board. I understand the sentiments of Chris Shaw. My work as a computer counselor for the University of Vermont puts me in constant contact with people who need the terms "boot up" and "program" explained. Sometimes, I wish that I go hit the "n" key when someone comes comes up and asks me to position the paper in the printer for them. Most of my education in graphics from a new staff member who arrived this year. He pointed me in the right directions with a few words and some "neat" pictures. Some of us neophytes would one or two kind words from you graphics Gods/Gurus/Wizards. It can be scary to be alone in the forest. JC -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- John M. Connors Path: {linus,ihnp4,decvax}!dartvax!uvm-gen!connors Rokeby RD #1 *BitNet: jconnors@uvmvm, UUCP: connors@uvm-gen.uucp Ferrisburg, VT 05456 CSNET : connors@gen.uvm.edu
eugene@pioneer.arpa (Eugene N. Miya) (04/05/88)
The volume of postings and the duplication of effort in comp.graphics is
increasing. I agree with Chris Shaw, and I like his solution, but I
think moderation is a bit too much work. This is the problem which
happened with the unix-wizards group years ago, then it split to become
comp.unix as well as comp.unix-wizards. Now it's split even further.
By splitting now, you can save yourself some trouble in the future.
From the Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers:
--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@ames-aurora.ARPA
"You trust the `reply' command with all those different mailers out there?"
"Send mail, avoid follow-ups. If enough, I'll summarize."
{uunet,hplabs,hao,ihnp4,decwrl,allegra,tektronix}!ames!aurora!eugenespencer@spline.eecs.umich.edu (Spencer W. Thomas) (04/05/88)
I beg to differ. The division of the unix-wizards newsgroup into subgroups for exactly this reason has, as far as I know, been quite successful. Another advantage of the proposed new group is that we are likely to see more authoritative (and correct!) answers. I have read so many incorrect answers to questions in this group that it almost makes me sick. Certainly, a reasonable moderator will allow differences of opinion to be aired, but can squelch incorrect (or duplicated) responses. Thus, the traffic in both groups will be smaller, and of higher quality. I might suggest the name "comp.graphics.questions", by analogy with the unix newsgroup. It is also a name with no extra connotations. =Spencer (spencer@crim.eecs.umich.edu)
doug@eris (Doug Merritt) (04/05/88)
In article <788@uvm-gen.UUCP> connors@uvm-gen.UUCP (The Unix Blizzard) writes: > >There are no SIGGRAPH groups nearby. The University's library is not >well stocked in computer graphics texts. Believe me, I have looked. Does anyone know whether or not there exist commercial services which will mail photocopies of requested journal articles for a fee? (I know, there may or may not be questions about copyright violation, etc, but that's not the question..."educational use" is legal anyway. And most journals explicitly specify a small copying fee). Such a service could be invaluable for those without convenient major university library access. Doug Merritt doug@mica.berkeley.edu (ucbvax!mica!doug) or ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug
eugene@pioneer.arpa (Eugene N. Miya) (04/05/88)
In article <788@uvm-gen.UUCP> connors@uvm-gen.UUCP (The Unix Blizzard) writes: >>There are no SIGGRAPH groups nearby. Good reason for starting one, eh? 8-) >>The University's library is not well stocked in computer graphics texts. This is where I'm serious about the point of starting one. If facilities for something are poor, and I want to learn about something, you start empire building. Who knows how far your can go? Wanta go for a PhD? Anyway, part of starting a local group is to get interest, expertise, and resources. Consider yourself lucky. You can get hundreds of people (novices) interested in graphics (unlike say operating systems ;-) in your local area. Having a local group confurs benefits like material for a library. Go for it. From the Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers: --eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@ames-aurora.ARPA "You trust the `reply' command with all those different mailers out there?" "Send mail, avoid follow-ups. If enough, I'll summarize." {uunet,hplabs,hao,ihnp4,decwrl,allegra,tektronix}!ames!aurora!eugene soon to be ex-Prez, Bay Area ACM/SIGGRAPH
woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods) (04/05/88)
While the experts in a group might be bothered by questions from the beginners, it is an inevitable part of having a discussion in a public forum. You can't keep the beginners out be creating another group. They want their questions answered, and the place to get answers is where the experts are. It's been shown time and time again that if you want to restrict postings to certain people/certain levels of expertise/etc., start a mailing list or a moderated newsgroup. --Greg
woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods) (04/05/88)
In article <812@zippy.eecs.umich.edu> spencer@spline.eecs.umich.edu (Spencer W. Thomas) writes: > >I beg to differ. The division of the unix-wizards newsgroup into >subgroups for exactly this reason has, as far as I know, been quite >successful. The original division of the UNIX group into .wizards and .questions was, in my opinion, not at all successful. FURTHER divisions based on subclasses of UNIX were much more successful (e.g. .ultrix, .microport, etc.). A newusers group won't work. If you were a beginner and wanted an answer to your question, where would you look for it? Simple: where the experts are. Trying to keep certain classes of posters out of a group that their postings are appropriate for by creating another group just for a certain class of poster does NOT work. It's been tried; with comp.unix.questions, net.women.only, and net.astro.expert. NONE of these succeeded in keeping the neophytes out of the expert group. (Yes, I know the neophye/expert analogy isn't quite appropriate for the net.women example, but I'm sure you get the picture). --Greg
bobr@zeus.TEK.COM (Robert Reed) (04/06/88)
spencer@spline.eecs.umich.edu (Spencer W. Thomas) writes:
I beg to differ. The division of the unix-wizards newsgroup into
subgroups for exactly this reason has, as far as I know, been quite
successful.
Well.... It is true that both comp.unix.wizards and comp.unix.questions can
be considered successful if the criterion is volume. Both are voluminous
newsgroups. On the other hand, I find it very difficult to differentiate
the content between them. You are just as likely to find questions and
answers about a good UN*X text or how to make this driver work on either
newsgroup.
If moderation of a new newsgroup will control the chaff, moderation of the
current group by a knowledgeable, diligent graphics expert could do the
same thing. Novice questions could be answered directly by mail, the
moderator either sending articles from the archives dealing with the
subject, or composing something of the form "you can find the answer in ...."
Questions for which the moderator has no answer can be passed on into the
newsgroup for consensus.
--
Robert Reed, Tektronix CAE Systems Division, bobr@zeus.TEKcrawfis@lll-lcc.aRpA (Roger A. Crawfis) (04/06/88)
I started out agreeing with issue, but it seems to me the problem I have with this newsgroup is not the frquency of the simple questions, but the onslaught of answers to them, especially when over half of them are either wrong or just grabbed out of the air and thrown onto the net for all to see. A moderator could help in this, by posing the questions to a few gurus and mailing the reply to the person who requested the information. The discussion going on about circle enclosing a set of points, hightens this. Everyone (including me) is throwing out thier guesses to the solution without much founded theory or research. Granted however this question is by no means a simple one. The discussion is kind of interesting however in that ideas are thrown out you say ok and then some diligent person gives a counter example and the cycle repeats. Roger A. Crawfis
richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) (04/07/88)
In article <3363@zeus.TEK.COM> bobr@zeus.UUCP (Robert Reed) writes: > >If moderation of a new newsgroup will control the chaff, moderation of the >current group by a knowledgeable, diligent graphics expert could do the >same thing. Novice questions could be answered directly by mail, the >moderator either sending articles from the archives dealing with the >subject, or composing something of the form "you can find the answer in ...." >Questions for which the moderator has no answer can be passed on into the >newsgroup for consensus. Oh puhleeze. Moderation is not the answer. I enjoy getting articles more than once a week. a .newuser group, like news...newuser is a perfect solution: it offers those with a burning "where can i get raytracing references" question what they really want: instant gratification. Educating novive graphics users or even those suspected of being graphics users is probably the single most important thing this group can do, and I see this as the most expedient method of accomplishing that goal. -- Remember me. Row my boat. richard@gryphon.CTS.COM rutgers!marque!gryphon!richard