hougen@umn-cs.CS.UMN.EDU (Dean Hougen) (11/30/89)
In article <128533@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> briang@sun.UUCP (Brian Gordon) writes: >In article <7551@fear+loathing.UUCP> richardb@cognos.UUCP () writes: >> >>I think all those people that voted for sci.aquaria should now start >>generating some traffic in this group. Especially the Loudest ones. > >Would that that were possible. If ANY news administrator between my system and >yours refuses to carry sci.aquaria, or aliases it to alt.aquaria, you will be >unable to receive anything I post to sci.aquaria, even if both our sites carry >it. It is a non-group, despite the winning vote. It is a group, despite the attempted sabotage of certain net.tyrants. Where I am at we get a good deal of traffic through sci.aquaria, and much of it is different from what appears in alt.aquaria. Of course, the bad connectivity causes some problems, just as it does for alt.* groups. Still, it has managed to get to a great many sights, many of whom do not get alt.aquaria. If you are seeing little or nothing at your sight, start doing some searching for the nut who is strangling your feed, and when you find him/her start applying preasure to get the line opened up. Usenet is for the users, dammit! Don't let some petty.dictator take it away from you. (Note that many of these dispicable creatures have confessed their sins publicly in news.groups, so they are a good place to start looking to find your particular pain.in.the. ass.) Dean Hougen P.s. I think all those people that voted against sci.aquaria should now stop flaming/whining/bitching/crying, grow up, and quit generating noise in this group. Especially the Loudest ones. -- "Just once or twice, is good for your soul." - Oingo-Boingo
briang@bari.Sun.COM (Brian Gordon) (12/01/89)
In article <17386@umn-cs.CS.UMN.EDU> hougen@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu (Dean Hougen) writes: >In article <128533@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> briang@sun.UUCP (Brian Gordon) writes: >>Would that that were possible. If ANY news administrator between my system and >>yours refuses to carry sci.aquaria, or aliases it to alt.aquaria, you will be >>unable to receive anything I post to sci.aquaria, even if both our sites carry >>it. It is a non-group, despite the winning vote. > >It is a group, despite the attempted sabotage of certain net.tyrants. Where >I am at we get a good deal of traffic through sci.aquaria, and much of it is >different from what appears in alt.aquaria. Of course, the bad connectivity >causes some problems, just as it does for alt.* groups. Still, it has managed >to get to a great many sights, many of whom do not get alt.aquaria. > >If you are seeing little or nothing at your sight, start doing some searching >for the nut who is strangling your feed, and when you find him/her start >applying preasure to get the line opened up. Usenet is for the users, dammit! >Don't let some petty.dictator take it away from you. (Note that many of these >dispicable creatures have confessed their sins publicly in news.groups, so >they are a good place to start looking to find your particular pain.in.the. >ass.) My understanding of usenet topology and yours must differ widely if you think that the problem is some single point. Moreover, my understand of usenet "policy" and yours must differ widely if you think I can "apply pressure" to a feed. Usenet, as I understand it, can be viewed as a ring (ignoring the leaf nodes and the relatively uncommon site with multiple feeds). Messages posted from a site are sent in both directions around the ring (again ignoring leaf nodes) and the message-id is used to keep it from "passing itself" in either direction. Suppose there are only 1,000 machines on this ring, and there are 200 between me and you in one direction and 800 in the other. Suppose there are only 10% of the sites that either do not carry sci.aquaria, or alias it to something else (so that articles that arrive in that newsgroup leave in another). Assuming uniform distribution of those 100 sites, there are 20 places in one direction and 80 in the other where your article is blocked from reaching your site, and the same number where your articles are blocked from reaching mine. Even if it is 5% instead of 10%, the group, in effect, just doesn't exist as a net-wide information exchange medium. Secondly, how do I, a spare-time usenet reader at Sun, "pressure" the spare-time usenet maintainer of a site hundreds of miles away to do ANYTHING he/she does not want to do? Hell, I can't even get MY news administrator to do things I think are good. My site has chosen to carry sci.aquaria, so I get to see three or four articles there a week, and have seen virtually no followups -- which I attribute to the articles not getting to that many people in the isolated arc containing Sun and reaching in both directions to sites which have chosen not to carry sci.aquaria. Somehow I don't see that as "a usenet group" in any meaningful sense. I doubt that most of the net has been able to see either of MY postings there. Does this fill Dean Hougen's request to "get the facts, jack"? No amount of yelling/posturing/logic/etc. is likely to change reality -- sci.aquaria does not exist. Whether is should or shouldn't is irrelevant. It doesn't. Saying "Usenet is for the users, dammit! Don't let some petty.dictator take it away from you." doesn't change a thing. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Brian G. Gordon briang@Corp.Sun.COM (if you trust exotic mailers) | | ...!sun!briangordon (if you route it yourself) | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
chip@ateng.com (Chip Salzenberg) (12/02/89)
According to hougen@umn-cs.CS.UMN.EDU (Dean Hougen): >It is a group, despite the attempted sabotage of certain net.tyrants. To be excruciatingly accurate, it is a group that has poor propagation because many sysadmins consider it Evil and Rude. Groups that don't propagate are failures. But, yes, they are still groups. >If you are seeing little or nothing at your sight, start doing some >searching for the nut who is strangling your feed, and when you find >him/her start applying preasure to get the line opened up. Applying pressure on a distant sysadmin, who may very well own the system he or she administers, is practically impossible. >Usenet is for the users, dammit! Whatever Usenet is _for_, it is unarguably _of_ the owners of the machines that carry it. Which leads to this maxim: +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Usenet: A network of the owners, by the admins, for the users. | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ -- You may redistribute this article only to those who may freely do likewise. Chip Salzenberg at A T Engineering; <chip@ateng.com> or <uunet!ateng!chip> "The Usenet, in a very real sense, does not exist."
gary@sci34hub.UUCP (Gary Heston) (12/02/89)
First: a) I voted against sci.aquaria, and b) the newgroup came thru here and was effected, i.e., I'm carrying it. In article <17386@umn-cs.CS.UMN.EDU>, hougen@umn-cs.CS.UMN.EDU (Dean Hougen) writes: > In article <128533@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> briang@sun.UUCP (Brian Gordon) writes: > >In article <7551@fear+loathing.UUCP> richardb@cognos.UUCP () writes: > >>I think all those people that voted for sci.aquaria should now start > >>generating some traffic in this group. Especially the Loudest ones. > >Would that that were possible. If ANY news administrator between my system and > >yours refuses to carry sci.aquaria, or aliases it to alt.aquaria, you will be > >unable to receive anything I post to sci.aquaria, even if both our sites carry > >it. It is a non-group, despite the winning vote. > It is a group, despite the attempted sabotage of certain net.tyrants. Where Objection. There was much and emotional debate about the group and voting results, and either sides' actions can justifiably be pointed to and claimed as improper, including tyrannical. > [ ..... ] Of course, the bad connectivity > causes some problems, just as it does for alt.* groups. [ ... ] What? I thought sci.all had PERFECT connectivity. After all, that was one of the stated reason for having it there instead of in rec. > [ ... ] for the nut who is strangling your feed, This characterization of a siteadmin is way out of line. I suppose I'm a nut because I don't carry alt or bio? Also, you don't decide what another site carries--they do. It's part of the job. > and when you find him/her start > applying preasure to get the line opened up. Usenet is for the users, dammit! First, that's spelled "pressure". Must make sure you know what you're suggesting. Second, stuff it. You can get whatever your feeding site wants to feed you. If that's not enough, run up YOUR long distance bill connecting to another site (in this case, I'm sure gryphon would be willing to arrange something. The group seems to be popular there--I understand there were 38 votes in favor from them) that has what you want. "Pressure" your feed? Good way to convince them to shut you off entirely. Each site carries whatever it wants, based on whatever reasons it wishes to apply. Your wants are a long second. > Don't let some petty.dictator take it away from you. (Note that many of these Oh, right. Now I'm not a nut, I'm a dictator. Thanks for clearing that up. > dispicable creatures have confessed their sins publicly in news.groups, so That's "despicable". At least, by your definition. Also, I don't consider opposing a group in discussion to be confessing a sin. Did the usenet get moved to Bulgaria, or North Korea, perhaps? > they are a good place to start looking to find your particular pain.in.the. > ass.) Oops, excuse ME. I thought I was a nut..er, dictator. Thanks again. > Dean Hougen > P.s. I think all those people that voted against sci.aquaria should now stop > flaming/whining/bitching/crying, grow up, and quit generating noise in this > group. Especially the Loudest ones. I think all the people who think all the other sites in usenet (which may include some of the people who voted in favor of sci.aquaria, but I'm not sure about that) are there for the sole purpose of providing them with a full, complete, and unadulterated news feed with the flamer/whiner/etc.s' choice of groups should grow up and quit generating noise. I think I'm a typical site, in that I'll pull down whatever I (or the users here) want from our primary feed. I'll gladly forward that to any site who wants it (and in fact finished setting one up today). If you want anything else, make other arrangements. If I tell you I won't be carrying a group, believe it. If you (or anyone) tries to "pressure" me, I'll just comment out a line in /usr/lib/uucp/Systems and /usr/lib/news/sys and let you (or them) run your site without my interference. -- Gary Heston { uunet!sci34hub!gary } System Mismanager SCI Technology, Inc. OEM Products Department (i.e., computers) Hestons' First Law: I qualify virtually everything I say.
leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) (12/06/89)
briang@bari.Sun.COM (Brian Gordon) writes:
<My understanding of usenet topology and yours must differ widely if you think
<that the problem is some single point. Moreover, my understand of usenet
<"policy" and yours must differ widely if you think I can "apply pressure" to
<a feed.
<Usenet, as I understand it, can be viewed as a ring (ignoring the leaf nodes
<and the relatively uncommon site with multiple feeds). Messages posted from a
<site are sent in both directions around the ring (again ignoring leaf nodes)
<and the message-id is used to keep it from "passing itself" in either
<direction.
<Suppose there are only 1,000 machines on this ring, and there are 200 between
<me and you in one direction and 800 in the other. Suppose there are only
<10% of the sites that either do not carry sci.aquaria, or alias it to
<something else (so that articles that arrive in that newsgroup leave in
<another). Assuming uniform distribution of those 100 sites, there are 20
<places in one direction and 80 in the other where your article is blocked from
<reaching your site, and the same number where your articles are blocked from
<reaching mine. Even if it is 5% instead of 10%, the group, in effect, just
<doesn't exist as a net-wide information exchange medium.
The above bears no resemblance to the structure of the net. Check map entries.
Multiple feeds are *common*. The topology of Usenet is nowhere near as simple
as a ring or a tree. It's more of a multiply connected nightmare.
Many "leaf" sites have multiple feeds so as to cut down on the load to their
feed. Or to pick up groups that their feed doesn't get. I've seen articles
trickle in through the "leaf" sites here at bucket when our main feed was
down.
On the other hand, we missed a *lot* of articles, because newsadmins try to
keep the feeds set up as something resembling a tree. It *is* possible for
a single site to cut off most of the traffic in a group for *some* sites.
For other sites it's almost impossible.
--
Leonard Erickson ...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard
CIS: [70465,203]
"I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools.
Let's start with typewriters." -- Solomon Shortdave@viper.Lynx.MN.Org (David Messer) (12/06/89)
In article <128633@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> briang@sun.UUCP (Brian Gordon) writes: >Usenet, as I understand it, can be viewed as a ring (ignoring the leaf nodes >and the relatively uncommon site with multiple feeds). Messages posted from a >site are sent in both directions around the ring (again ignoring leaf nodes) >and the message-id is used to keep it from "passing itself" in either >direction. Usenet, in fact, is a directed graph. Near the leaf nodes it tends to resemble a tree, but near the 'backbone' it is much more fully connected. Minnesota, for instance, has two (at least) full feeds coming into the area, which feed a top level of sites, each of which feed each other. (I hear we are more organized than most local areas however.) In any event, it would take at least two key sites to stop a newsgroup from reaching a significant fraction of the local sites. Refusing to carry a group such as sci.aquaria is more symbolic than practical. Besides, why should it be any other way? Just because I don't want to carry sci.aquaria it doesn't make it right to force my opinion on others. -- Remember Tiananmen Square. | David Messer dave@Lynx.MN.Org -or- | Lynx Data Systems ...!bungia!viper!dave