matoh@sssab.se (Mats Ohrman) (12/06/89)
aem@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (a.e.mossberg) writes: >In article <1989Dec4.103151.22749@sssab.se> matoh@sssab.se (Mats Ohrman) writes: >>r.m.f is the place for a regularily occuring posting of a short story >>magazine, which, just as rec.mag.otherrealms, has outgrown its mailing >>list. >Regularly occuring? The last posting in the group was about a month ago >(it's no longer anywhere around here) and was not fsf. Issue 02.01 19 Mar 89 Issue 02.02 5 May 89 Issue 02.03 22 Sep 89 (august issue was delayed) Issue 02.04 29 Sep 89 Issue 02.05 14 Oct 89 Issue 02.06 3 Nov 89 Is your feed broken? It makes it here to Sweden anyway... (Despite all the earlier claims here in news.groups that us Europeans recieving rec. groups was just an illusion... :-) ) >It was some question that had nothing to do with it, if I recall >correctly. The electronic magazine, if it still exists, could better >be put directly in rec.mag. Having a separate group for a magazine >which appears less than monthly doesn't make any sense. Which means Otherrealms is the first to go, as it is quarterly. [ Hey, Chuq, are you listening to this? ] I think there is very few non-professional magazines that comes out *more often* than monthly. I am talking *magazines* here, not *digests*. >Maybe I should call for votes for >a rec.mag.sfer ust because it comes out monthly? Perhaps if you explained what 'sfer' was... _______________________________________________________________________________ Disclaimer: disclaim, disclaimed, disclaimer, disclaimee, disclaimishnessly _ : matoh@sssab.se / Mats Ohrman, : {mcvax,munnari,uunet}!sunic!sssab!matoh Scandinavian System Support AB, : Phone: Nat. 013-11 16 60 Box 535, S-581 06 Linkoping, Sweden : Int. +46 13 11 16 60
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (12/07/89)
matoh@sssab.se (Mats Ohrman) writes: >aem@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (a.e.mossberg) writes: >Which means Otherrealms is the first to go, as it is quarterly. >[ Hey, Chuq, are you listening to this? ] Listening and giggling. Mossberg is more than welcome to kick OtherRealms off the net if he wants, but he's the one that'll have to explain it to my 11,000 (arbitron) readers, and to the uucp sites that are going to get inundated when they convert over to uucp feeds. Seriously, this sort of thing comes up every so often. It can generally be more or less ignored. Not all groups have high volume. One of the primary reasons for moderated groups (and for electronic magazines, which are effectively hyper-moderated) is to keep the noise level down. This kind of proposal is silly, because by lumping a bunch of unrelated postings into the same newsgroup, you effectively turn the noise level back up again, defeating the initial purpose. As long as the group is being used for what it was intended and is still active, it doesn't matter whether it's one posting a month or one posting a year. Leave it alone. The whole purpose of rec.mag.otherrealms is to keep the noise down as close to zero as possible. So far, I think it's done that quite well. My position is real simple on r.m.o and is the same as it has always been. When the net decides that it's time to delete r.m.o, I'll stop distributing OtherRealms on the net. If a site doesn't want to carry the group, that's great -- it's their choice. But OtherRealms won't live in rec.mag, or rec.mag.sfer, or rec.arts.sf-lovers. It's its own entity, and will stay that way. Why don't we find some important issue to argue over? USENET seems to love spending inordinate amount of time arguing trivialities while ignoring serious problems completely. -- Chuq Von Rospach <+> chuq@apple.com <+> [This is myself speaking] When it comes to matters ourside your specialties, you are consistently and brilliantly stupid [....] with respect to matters you haven't studied and have had no experience basing your opinions on casual gossip [....] and plain misinformation -- unsuspected because you haven't attempted to verify it. -- Robert Heinlein to J.W. Campbell, Jr. 1941
aem@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (a.e.mossberg) (12/07/89)
Here's the recently posted data on the groups. 265 11000 466 95% 7 104.3 0% 0.02 1.7% rec.mag.otherrealms 399 5800 253 93% 4 5.4 25% 0.00 0.9% rec.mag 480 1300 57 68% 1 123.9 0% 0.12 0.2% rec.mag.fsfnet 1300 subscribers to rec.mag.fsfnet 1 message in the period. Why can't it be deleted? Surely that one message could've gone to rec.mag? rec.mag itself averages about a message a week, since I stopped posting magazine summaries/indices to it. (The last two days it's had alot of traffic, 'cause my Greenpeace articles have been cross-posted to it). rec.mag.otherrealms has a bit more traffic, and the moderator is still alive. Certainly it has readership. But I didn't suggest that it be deleted now, did I? With the continuing growth of newsgroups on USENET, I suggest that there has to be a mechanism for removing outdated groups. rec.mag.fsfnet is an ideal candidate for removal. aem -- a.e.mossberg / aem@mthvax.cs.miami.edu / aem@umiami.BITNET / Pahayokee Bioregion I don't believe in the afterlife although I am bringing a change of underwear. - Woody Allen
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (12/07/89)
aem@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (a.e.mossberg) writes: >Why can't it be deleted? Surely that one message could've gone to >rec.mag? Why should it? It's not dead, although you'd like it to be. >rec.mag itself averages about a message a week, since I stopped posting >magazine summaries/indices to it. (The last two days it's had alot >of traffic, 'cause my Greenpeace articles have been cross-posted to it). Rec.mag also has a different charter than either rec.mag.otherrealms or rec.mag.fsfnet. Since comp.edu has a fairly low traffic volume, why don't we put it into rec.mag as well? >rec.mag.otherrealms has a bit more traffic, and the moderator is still >alive. Certainly it has readership. But I didn't suggest that it be >deleted now, did I? You're suggesting that groups with low numbers of postings (irrespective of audience or content) be consolidate. You can't blame me for looking out for my interests. What you're recommending isn't thought out and sets precedents I don't like -- what's to keep someone later from suggesting the same for my group? Nothing. >With the continuing growth of newsgroups on USENET, I suggest that there >has to be a mechanism for removing outdated groups. rec.mag.fsfnet >is an ideal candidate for removal. Well, I strongly disagree. The proposal doesn't understand the charter of rec.mag, or the charter of rec.mag.all (which are very different, I might add. And since I wrote both, I probably have some knowledge on this). I also think it's *stupid* to consider combining viable groups together just because of some vague sense of esthetics (a generally unppula esthetic sense, I might add, since folks have been trying to get the network to do something about deleting obsolete groups for as many years as I've been on USENET -- to massive yawns). There's no reason to kill off rec.mag.fsfnet. It's alive and well -- you shouldn't make the mistake of defining 'quanity' as the same as quality. The whole purpose of rec.mag.all was to try to create an environment where we could try to turn around the "more postings is better" mentality of USENET that contributes so heavily to the signal/noise ratios everyone hates. So why are we now looking at encouraging high signal/noise ratios? If I started posting a hundred stupid messages a week to these groups to get the volume up, would it be a better group? No. But it'd probably stop this kind of discussion. Which says more about why this is a dumb idea than anything. -- Chuq Von Rospach <+> chuq@apple.com <+> [This is myself speaking] When it comes to matters ourside your specialties, you are consistently and brilliantly stupid [....] with respect to matters you haven't studied and have had no experience basing your opinions on casual gossip [....] and plain misinformation -- unsuspected because you haven't attempted to verify it. -- Robert Heinlein to J.W. Campbell, Jr. 1941
aem@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (a.e.mossberg) (12/07/89)
In article <37052@apple.Apple.COM> chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >Why should it [be deleted] ? It's not dead, although you'd like it to be. >[he goes on for many lines] It appears dead from here. Why are you taking this as a personal attack, Chuq? If rec.mag.fsfnet is not dead, as it appears to be, then it shouldn't be deleted. I'm not trying to remove any active group, I'm trying to suggest some mechanism to remove groups no longer needed with a test case. Suggest some mechanism of your own, kiddo. Despite what you're trying to represent, I'm not rampaging through the USENET deleting groups right and left without a care to their activity. I haven't done anything, nor could I. I just made a suggestion, buddy boy. aem -- a.e.mossberg / aem@mthvax.cs.miami.edu / aem@umiami.BITNET / Pahayokee Bioregion Who commonly seeks the intervention of the United States in Latin American troubles? ...Always the foreign interests, bondholders, or concessionaries. They are the germs of revolution and the cause of instability. - Woodrow Wilson
brian@ucsd.Edu (Brian Kantor) (12/08/89)
In article <37044@apple.Apple.COM> chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >Why don't we find some important issue to argue over? USENET seems to love >spending inordinate amount of time arguing trivialities while ignoring >serious problems completely. Obviously because the stupid loudmouthed couch-potatos that make up the majority of Usenet nowadays would rather express their ignorant opinions than spend one iota of effort to try to even think about solving the problems. Screaming in rage is easy and cathartic. "If it feels good, do it." But working hard to solve problems is difficult - clearly beyond the capabilities of most of people on Usenet nowadays. Usenet is a society in microcosm, and as in larger society, a simple answer to a complex problem is rare. You can't point a gun at it and solve it. You have to think. Most people don't and won't. Perhaps they can't. I wonder what the Arbitron stats would show if they could measure IQ. - Brian
henk@cs.eur.nl (Henk Langeveld) (12/08/89)
aem@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (a.e.mossberg) writes: >With the continuing growth of newsgroups on USENET, I suggest that there >has to be a mechanism for removing outdated groups. rec.mag.fsfnet >is an ideal candidate for removal. FSFnet has seen changes of name and editor. As I seem to remember, Dave Liscomb stopped editing the zine, although the Dargon "shared world" stories were to be continued in Dargonzine, with a new editor. I don't know whether Dargonzine is alive or not (wasn't that the single entry in rec.mag.fsfnet this year), but fsfnet is dead. The group should be removed. Chuq, do you have any info? Henk Langeveld, e-mail contact for Confiction, confiction@cs.eur.nl Do not use this adress for convention business, send memberships to ConFiction; p.o.box 95370; NL-2509 CJ The Hague; The Netherlands -- -- Henk Langeveld, Unix SysAdmin | domain: <henk@cs.eur.nl> Department of Computer Science | phone: +31 10 4081346 Erasmus University Rotterdam | also: langeveld@hroeur5.bitnet Room H5-05, P.O.Box 1738, NL-3000 DR Rotterdam, The Netherlands.
matoh@sssab.se (Mats Ohrman) (12/08/89)
*** WARNING, WARNING: some scattered showers of heavy irony predicted **** aem@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (a.e.mossberg) writes: >1300 subscribers to rec.mag.fsfnet Yes, quite a bit over the 100-200 needed to turn a mailing-list into a newsgroup... >1 message in the period. That, of course, depends on what period and what length of period that is sampled. There is lies, there is damned lies, and there is statistics... Why not look at the facts for the entire 1989 so far? rec.mag.otherrealms: 3 issues, totaling 700 K, the latest one 31 Oct - 3 Nov rec.mag.fsfnet: 6 issues, totaling 530 K, the latest one 3 Nov If you still refuse to believe in the existence of those 530 Kbytes, I could mail them to you, so that you may see them with your own eyes. I've got them right here on my disk... >Why can't it be deleted? Surely that one message could've gone to >rec.mag? >rec.mag itself averages about a message a week, since I stopped posting >magazine summaries/indices to it. (The last two days it's had alot >of traffic, 'cause my Greenpeace articles have been cross-posted to it). Who would deliberately mix up his subscriptions with the junk mail? Subscribing to rec.mag.otherrealms and rec.mag.fsfnet while unsubscribing to rec.mag has been one of my best signal-vs-noise-separators... >rec.mag.otherrealms has a bit more traffic, and the moderator is still >alive. ^^^ As there *is* postings in rec.mag.fsfnet: Do you believe in postings from the dead? Look out, grave-net is out to get you... >Certainly it has readership. But I didn't suggest that it be >deleted now, did I? Oh, I see. Article <1199@umigw.MIAMI.EDU> where you wrote -> Having a separate group for a magazine which appears less -> than monthly doesn't make any sense. is just a forgery... >With the continuing growth of newsgroups on USENET, I suggest that >there has to be a mechanism for removing outdated groups. >rec.mag.fsfnet is an ideal candidate for removal. What's "outdated"? There is readers, regular postings, absolutely no noise, and rather high-quality content. In my opinion it is one of the better newsgroups on the net. Hmm... it has to be the absense of noise. That's certainly outdated on the net these days. But I'm sure that if you want some flame-batches to "bring it up to date" it can be arranged... _______________________________________________________________________________ Disclaimer: Read what I intended, not what I wrote. _______________________________________________________________________________ _ : matoh@sssab.se / Mats Ohrman, : {mcvax,munnari,uunet}!sunic!sssab!matoh Scandinavian System Support AB, : Phone: Nat. 013-11 16 60 Box 535, S-581 06 Linkoping, Sweden : Int. +46 13 11 16 60
matoh@sssab.se (Mats Ohrman) (12/09/89)
henk@cs.eur.nl (Henk Langeveld) writes: >aem@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (a.e.mossberg) writes: >>With the continuing growth of newsgroups on USENET, I suggest that there >>has to be a mechanism for removing outdated groups. rec.mag.fsfnet >>is an ideal candidate for removal. >FSFnet has seen changes of name and editor. As I seem to remember, >Dave Liscomb stopped editing the zine, although the Dargon "shared >world" stories were to be continued in Dargonzine, with a new editor. Yes, that happened somewhere in mid-1988. As DargonZine was a continuation of fsfnet, it took over the newsgroup, still publishing stories from the Dargon Project (some quite good). So far there has been seven issues, one during 1988, six during 1989: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- DargonZine Volume 2, Issue 1 03/17/89 Cir 882 -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Contents -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ DAG Dafydd Editorial A Night in the Town Carlo N. Samson 28 Naia, 1013 Trial by Fire, Part 1 M. Wendy Henniquin 7-12 Sy, 1013 The Game Begins John Doucette 13-14 Sy, 1013 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- DargonZine Volume 2, Issue 2 05/06/89 Cir 801 -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Contents -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ DAG Dafydd Editorial Backtrail Michelle 17 Naia, 1013 Dragon Hunt, Part 1 Max Khaytsus 19-23 Naia, 1013 Dragon Hunt, Part 2 Max Khaytsus 20-23 Naia, 1013 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- DargonZine Volume 2, Issue 3 09/22/89 Cir 850 -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Contents -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ DAG Dafydd Editorial Sons of Gateway 1: Ne'on Jon "Grimjack" Evans Vibr. 17-Fir. 7, '13 Unwelcome Encounter Carlo Samson Melrin 5, 1013 Fortunes Max Khaytsus 1 Yule, 1013 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- DargonZine Volume 2, Issue 4 09/29/89 Cir 816 -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Contents -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dragon Hunt 3 Max Khaytsus Naia 25-Yule 7, '13 The Knight of Stone Jon "Grimjack" Evans Yuli 11-22, 1013 Trial before Tribunal Wendy Hennequin Sy 15-22, 1013 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- DargonZine Volume 2, Issue 5 10/13/89 Cir 824 -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Contents -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ DAG Dafydd Editorial Sons of Gateway 2: Magic Jon "Grimjack" Evans Naia 21-Ober 13, '13 Dragon Hunt 4 Max Khaytsus Yule 8-23, 1013 Damsel in Distress Wendy Hennequin Sy 24-27, 1013 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- DargonZine Volume 2, Issue 6 11/03/89 Cir 861 -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Contents -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Trial Before the King M. Wendy Hennequin Seber 5-12, 1013 Knight in Shining Armor M. Wendy Hennequin Seber 24-Ober 7, '13 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >I don't know whether Dargonzine is alive or not (wasn't that the single >entry in rec.mag.fsfnet this year), but fsfnet is dead. The group >should be removed. The group isn't dead. It is probably misnamed (but that has not been the issue here) and it suffers from distribution problems that makes some people think it is dead, but it is not dead. _______________________________________________________________________________ Disclaimer: Read what I intended, not what I wrote... _______________________________________________________________________________ _ : matoh@sssab.se / Mats Ohrman, : {mcvax,munnari,uunet}!sunic!sssab!matoh Scandinavian System Support AB, : Phone: Nat. 013-11 16 60 Box 535, S-581 06 Linkoping, Sweden : Int. +46 13 11 16 60
davidsen@crdos1.crd.ge.COM (Wm E Davidsen Jr) (12/12/89)
In article <1989Dec8.104420.20981@sssab.se> matoh@sssab.se (Mats Ohrman) writes: | >rec.mag.otherrealms has a bit more traffic, and the moderator is still | >alive. | ^^^ As there *is* postings in rec.mag.fsfnet: Do you believe in | postings from the dead? Look out, grave-net is out to get you... Don't you get alt.talk2elvis at your site? Moderated group, the king answers when he feels like it. -- bill davidsen (davidsen@crdos1.crd.GE.COM -or- uunet!crdgw1!crdos1!davidsen) "The world is filled with fools. They blindly follow their so-called 'reason' in the face of the church and common sense. Any fool can see that the world is flat!" - anon