stodol@freja.diku.dk (David Stodolsky) (12/07/89)
I received a total of 222 votes (not counting duplicates) by 13:00 UTC, December 5, 1989, including a correction (resulting from a voter's mailing error) and six votes that were sent on time, but arrived late. 175 persons supported creation of the groups. 164 supported the most preferred name, comp.groupware(.f). The proposal passes if the "Yes" - "No" > 100 rule of the current Guidelines is used, since the vote outcome calculated this way (Total - 2 * "No") is 128. The newsgroups comp.groupware and comp.groupware.f will be created. Comp.groupware is for original posts, followups to these posts should be directed to comp.groupware.f. Comp.groupware will cover all types of hardware and software for facilitating group interaction. This includes what is termed orgware. If you prefer to receive the posts by mail, send me a request to be placed on the mailing lists, including the address at which you would like to receive them. If you can help set up the mailing lists, please let me know what assistance you can offer. I will initially cross post some comp.groupware material of general interest to news.groups. If you see one of these crossposts in news.groups, but not in comp.groupware, tell your news administrator you would like to get the comp.groupware newsgroups. (This assumes you try to read comp.groupware first.) You can check the vote count by successively removing the following letters from the beginning of vote lines below, using a search and replace function. The number following each letter shows the number of times the replacement occurred: y 6 s 33 n 47 c 164 Note that these numbers are not always the first choice of each vote. Those were: y 6 s 33 n 47 c 136 Total = 222 Total - n = 175 "Yes" - "No" (= total - 2n) = 175 - 47 = 128 I have reposted to news.groups a worked example of Single Transferrable Vote counting that assumes retention of all "no" votes (the method used here). +--< Start your search and replace here (on the line above the first vote). I V c Allan Kuchinsky <kuchinsk@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> c bdb%becker@relay.EU.net (Bruce Becker) c Bengt Larsson <bengtl@maths.lth.se> c bud@ucrmath.ucr.edu Sat Nov 18 19:55:58 1989 c Chris.Rusbridge@levels.sait.oz.au c dab@jhereg.Minnetech.MN.ORG (David A. Bright) c dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca Tue Oct 31 20:01:09 1989 c Dan Boyarski <dan+@andrew.cmu.edu> c db@East.Sun.COM (David Brownell) c don%dons3b1@relay.EU.net (Don Joslyn) c dricejb@drilex.DRI.MGH.COM (Craig Jackson drilex1) c dunc@grads.cs.ubc.ca (Duncan Stickings) c eeg@frame.UUCP (Eric Griswold) c eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) c fletcher@hplabs.hp.com c gnf3e@bbibbi.cs.virginia.edu c Harald Tveit Alvestrand <Harald.Alvestrand@vax.runit.unit.uninett> c Harry Forsdick <forsdick@diamond.bbn.com> c horn@garfield.cs.wisc.edu c jjsc@inf.rl.ac.uk c Jonathan Levine <jlevine@crash.oracle.com> c klee@wsl.dec.com (Ken Lee) c Lyn Pemberton <lynnp@COGS.SUSSEX.AC.UK> c Maarten Litmaath <maart@cs.vu.nl> c mackeown@compsci.bristol.ac.uk c Michael Trogni <mike@pasteur.cvm.uiuc.edu> c Niels Mayer <mayer@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> c pmorriso@gara.une.oz.au (Perry Morrison MATH) c pz@apple.com (Peter Zukoski) c rasmus%contact@relay.EU.net (Rasmus Lerdorf) c sommerfeld@apollo.com (Bill Sommerfeld) c ted@parcplace.com (Ted Goldstein) c Thomas I. M. Ho" <TOMHO@PURCCVM.bitnet> c unccab@med.unc.edu (Charles Balan) c var@iris.brown.edu (Victor A. Riley) c wcs@ho95c.att.com (William Clare Stewart) c wyle@inf.ethz.ch cn Bart Massey <bart@videovax.tv.tek.com> cn bob@omni.com (Bob Weissman) cn davidsen@crdos1.crd.ge.com cn Fraser S. <fraser@lake.scar.utoronto.ca> cn lars@salt.acc.com (Lars J Poulsen) cn Matt Crawford" <matt@oddjob.uchicago.edu> cn Matt S Wartell <msw@unix.cis.pitt.edu> cn olorin@dewey.cc.utexas.edu (Dave Weinstein) cn rja@edison.cho.ge.com> cn Tom Haapanen <tohaapanen@daisy.uwaterloo.ca> cn tower@bu-it.BU.EDU cn treed%mapes%fsg@relay.EU.net (Timothy Reed) cn twwells.com!bill T. William Wells cn wbt@cbnews.att.com cns chip@ateng.ateng.com (Chip Salzenberg) cns David Wright <dww@stl.stc.co.uk> cns ilana@cgdra.UCAR.EDU (Ilana Stern) cs Allan D. Griefer" <GRIEFER@IBM.COM> cs Andrew Boardman <amb@cs.columbia.edu> cs ath@prosys (Anders Thulin) cs Bengt Jansson <UPSBJ@SEGUC11.bitnet> cs bill gunshannon <702WFG@SCRVMSYS.bitnet> cs bmug@garnet.berkeley.edu (BMUG) cs Bob Snead <bobs@ico.isc.com> cs Brian Beach <beach@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> cs Brian Holtz <holtz@csmil.umich.edu> cs bwk@mbunix.mitre.org (Kort) cs cak@ifs.umich.edu cs carm@cs.UMD.EDU (Richard Chimera) cs chris%herbert@relay.EU.net (Chris Greve) cs Clark Wilson <clrk@tank.uchicago.edu> cs craig@com2serv.c2s.mn.org (Craig S. Wilson) cs cs@cblpe.att.com (Craig R Stevenson +1 614 860 7089) cs Dan McCue <Dan.McCue@newcastle.ac.uk> cs dawson@caen.engin.umich.edu (Alice Furumoto-Dawson) cs Dongman Lee <dlee@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com> cs ebrynjo@ATHENA.MIT.EDU cs esf00@amdahl.amdahl.com (Elliott S. Frank) cs F0MB000 <F0MB@USOUTHAL.BITNET> cs florijn@serc.nl (Gert Florijn) cs Gary Fariss <fariss@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov> cs Grant Hogarth <USERGF8C@RPITSMTS.BITNET> cs hargrove%harlie.corp@sgi.com (Mark Hargrove) cs Jack Jansen <jack@piring.cwi.nl> cs Janet Barnes-Farrell <BARNESF@UCONNVM.BITNET> cs Jeff Williamson <magik@norby.acns.nwu.edu> cs jeremy@jeremy.prime.com cs Jim Ault <ault@pawl.rpi.edu> cs JMS@mis.arizona.edu> cs Johan Vromans <jv@mh.nl> cs John DiMarco <jdd@db.toronto.edu> cs John Streich <streich@milton.u.washington.edu> cs Jose Diaz-Gonzalez <jdg0@gte.com> cs jp@frog Fri Nov 3 13:18:52 1989 cs larryw%cognos@relay.EU.net (Larry Williams) cs lemon%hplmjl@hplabs.hp.com cs lowe@grads.cs.ubc.ca (David Lowe) cs lsr@apple.com (Larry Rosenstein) cs luong@wsl.dec.com (Daphne Huetu Luong) cs LYNCH%CARAT@telcom.arizona.edu> cs Mark Abel <markabel@uswest.com> cs Mike Northam ext 2651 <mbn@sns4.UUCP> cs mis@Seiden.com (Mark Seiden) cs moss%takahe@cs.umass.edu (Eliot Moss) cs msa@tel4.tel.vtt.fi (Markku Savela) cs msmith@topaz.rutgers.edu (Mark Robert Smith) cs mujica@CS.UCLA.EDU (S. Mujica) cs murphy%mfci@relay.EU.net (Tom Murphy) cs netmgr@finsun.CSC.FI cs newman%inco@relay.EU.net (Bo Newman) cs norman%cogsci@ucsd.edu (Donald A Norman-UCSD Cog Sci Dept) cs palvarez@ucsd.edu cs Per Danielsson <pd@sics.se> cs Peter Clitherow <pc@ctt.ctt.bellcore.com> cs rca@cs.brown.edu cs Sally Laughon <LAUGHON@VTVM1.bitnet> cs Saul Greenberg <saul@calarc.ARC.CA> cs Sean Hayes <esh@hplb.hpl.hp.com> cs SF105@PHOENIX.CAMBRIDGE.AC.UK cs skip@claris.UUCP (Brian Schipper) cs smithr%ast@relay.EU.net (Richard H. E. Smith II) cs SPAJ710@UTXVM.BITNET cs spencer@crim.eecs.umich.edu (Spencer W. Thomas) cs Steve Cisler <sac@apple.com> cs steve@cfht.cfht.hawaii.edu (Steven Smith) cs steve@txsil.lonestar.org (Steve McConnel) cs sukumar@emx.utexas.edu (Sukumar Rathnam) cs taylor@rand.org (David G. Taylor) cs Thierry.Gandilhon@cediag.bull.fr cs tneff%bfmny0@uunet.UU.NET (Tom Neff) cs Todd.Kaufmann@NL.CS.CMU.EDU cs twl@cs.brown.edu Fri Nov 17 18:14:53 1989 cs wake@11srus.enet.dec.com (17-Nov-1989 0852) cs weh@SEI.CMU.EDU cs WEYKERS@UNCG.BITNET> cs winffww@dutrun.tudelft.nl (F.W.Wierda) cs wombat@largo.key.com (Joan Eslinger) cs yyang@frame.UUCP (Yeong Yang) csn phil@wubios.WUstl.EDU (J. Philip Miller) n amanda@iesd.auc.dk (Per Abrahamsen) n Aydin Edguer <edguer@alpha.ces.cwru.edu> n Ben Yalow <YBMCU@CUNYVM.bitnet> n blm@6sceng.UUCP n Bob Sloane <SLOANE@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> n bwalker@marlin.nosc.mil (Beth Walker) n cej%ll1a@relay.EU.net n cew@venera.isi.edu (Craig E. Ward) n chip@vector.dallas.tx.us (Chip Rosenthal) n Chris Davies <chris%vision@relay.EU.net> n Craig Leres <leres@helios.ee.lbl.gov> n csg@pyramid.pyramid.com (Carl S. Gutekunst) n Dan Schlitt <dan@sci.ccny.cuny.edu> n David C Lawrence <tale@pawl.rpi.edu> n David Herron -- One of the vertebrae <david@ms.uky.edu> n dietz@cs.rochester.edu n dwillis@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (Alden Willis) n emv@math.lsa.umich.edu n fitz@wang.WANG.COM (Tom Fitzgerald) n Gene Spafford <spaf@cs.purdue.edu> n Greely <jgreely@cis.ohio-state.edu> n jfm@ruddles.sprl.umich.edu (John Mansfield) n John Robert LoVerso <loverso@Xylogics.COM> n kaul@icarus.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rich Kaul) n kebera%alzabo@relay.EU.net (Krishna E. Bera) n kevin@math.lsa.umich.edu n lyndon%myrias%cs@relay.EU.net (Lyndon Nerenberg) n mehl@atanasoff.cs.iastate.edu (Mark M Mehl) n mesard@WILMA.BBN.COM Tue Oct 31 05:48:54 1989 n Mitchell Spector <spector@sumax.UUCP> n pasek@c10sd3.stpaul.ncr.com n peter%ficc@relay.EU.net n pmm@mips.com (Paul M. Moriarty) n rae%repo242%alias@uunet.UU.NET (Reid Ellis) n reiher@onyx.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Peter Reiher) n Rich Kulawiec <rsk@boulder.Colorado.EDU> n Rich Salz <rsalz@bbn.com> n Richard H. Miller <rick@pavlov.bcm.tmc.edu> n Rob Sartin <sartin@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> n rogers%ofc%ncrcae@relay.EU.net n schinder@tcgould.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Paul Schinder) n sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) n Steve Hayman <sahayman@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu> n tar@ksuvax1.cis.ksu.edu (Tim Ramsey) n wayne%dsndata@relay.EU.net (Wayne Schlitt) nc jad@dayton.DHDSC.MN.ORG (J. Deters) nc paul@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu s BICKER CLIFF" <amiga-relay-request@nwc.navy.mil> s dave@cmi.com (David Halonen) s flor%cogsci@ucsd.edu (Nick Flor) s ifab750@sleepy.cc.utexas.edu (Matthew S. Cohen) s ksand@appleoz.usg.apple.oz.au (Kent Sandvik) s Patrick.Hayes@cediag.bull.fr s rwright%novavax@relay.EU.net (Ronald K. Wright) sc Alain Giboin <Alain.Giboin@mirsa.inria.fr> sc andy@savoy.Berkeley.EDU (Andy Lieberman) sc anthon%cadlab1@relay.EU.net sc Bill Hillgartner <AD38@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA> sc David W. Price" <C300151@UMCVMB.bitnet> sc daw%teraida@relay.EU.net (Don Walters) sc Don Dwiggins <dwiggins@ashtate.A-T.COM> sc gimlichb@bionette.CGRB.ORST.EDU (Bob Gimlich - Zoology) sc Hans Werner Bitzer <hw@ta.olivetti.com> sc hassell@tramp.Colorado.EDU (Christopher Hassell) sc jasj@whutt.att.com (James A Snow) sc jchaney@ube.CS.ORST.EDU Sat Nov 18 01:51:15 1989 sc Jeff Hodges <hodges@jessica.Stanford.EDU> sc joann@prism.tmc.com (JoAnn Brooks) sc keegan@sungod.crd.ge.com (James G Keegan) sc mfidelma@BBN.COM sc mhumi@wpi.wpi.edu (Mayer Humi) sc MWolf@granite.cr.bull.com sc Paul Dourish <dourish@arisia.Xerox.COM> sc Rich Haller <RHALLER@oregon.uoregon.edu> sc Richard Fozzard <fozzard@boulder.Colorado.EDU> sc richardt@mica.berkeley.edu (Richard Threadgill) sc Sean Philip Engelson <engelson-sean@YALE.EDU> sc Stacy Weaver <stacy@sci.ccny.cuny.edu> sc Terry Simmons <tls@uswest.com> scn David Stodolsky <stodol@diku.dk> y Clark Quinn <quinn@unix.cis.pitt.edu> y rsk@boulder.Colorado.EDU Tue Nov 28 12:35:05 1989 y T. OSTBYE" <37247_1113@uwovax.uwo.ca> y Thomson Kuhn <KUHN@wharton.upenn.edu> y trudy@inf.ethz.ch> y winfave@dutrun.tudelft.nl (A.Verbraeck) -- David S. Stodolsky, PhD Routing: <@uunet.uu.net:stodol@diku.dk> Department of Psychology Internet: <stodol@diku.dk> Copenhagen Univ., Njalsg. 88 Voice + 45 31 58 48 86 DK-2300 Copenhagen S, Denmark Fax. + 45 31 54 32 11
rsalz@bbn.com (Rich Salz) (12/07/89)
Two groups on one vote? No way. /r$ -- Please send comp.sources.unix-related mail to rsalz@uunet.uu.net. Use a domain-based address or give alternate paths, or you may lose out.
chip@ateng.com (Chip Salzenberg) (12/07/89)
According to stodol@diku.dk (David Stodolsky):
>164 supported the most preferred name, comp.groupware(.f).
We have good news and bad news.
Good news: STV resulted in the reasonable name "comp.groupware".
Bad news: Group champion thinks that voting in comp.groupware also implies
voting in a "followup group" called comp.groupware.f.
The idea of a followup group doesn't work unless the original group is
moderated; otherwise people don't use the followup group. See alt.sources
for an example. Periodic flaming results from non-source articles in
alt.sources. Discussion is supposed to go in alt.sources.d, but it doesn't,
because people make mistakes.
I know that the groupware proposal included groupware.f. But the people-
voted-for-it argument didn't work for comp.women, sci.aquaria or
comp.protocols.tcp-ip.eniac. It won't work for comp.groupware.f either.
--
You may redistribute this article only to those who may freely do likewise.
Chip Salzenberg at A T Engineering; <chip@ateng.com> or <uunet!ateng!chip>
"The Usenet, in a very real sense, does not exist."tale@cs.rpi.edu (Dave Lawrence) (12/08/89)
In article <2197@coconut.bbn.com> rsalz@bbn.com (Rich Salz) writes: > Two groups on one vote? No way. Quite. I voted no, in part because of the stupid *.groupware.f rider. I will addgroup comp.groupware when the message shows up, but not the .f group. If it were to exist at all, it would be .d. As Chip points out in a seperate article, it simply will not work well to have the follow-up group for the unmoderated base group. Dave -- (setq mail '("tale@cs.rpi.edu" "tale@ai.mit.edu" "tale@rpitsmts.bitnet"))
tr@pcharming.ctt.bellcore.com (tom reingold) (12/13/89)
Why is it that news about newsgroups is sent to comp.mail.* newsgroups? Is it appropriate and I just don't see why? Or is it that many people independently get the same silly idea? Tom Reingold |INTERNET: tr@bellcore.com Bellcore |UUCP: bellcore!tr 444 Hoes La room 1H217 |PHONE: (201) 699-7058 [work], Piscataway, NJ 08854-4182 | (201) 287-2345 [home]
stodol@freja.diku.dk (David Stodolsky) (12/15/89)
Chip Salzenberg writes in <257E830A.23877@ateng.com> >The idea of a followup group doesn't work unless the original group is >moderated; otherwise people don't use the followup group. eunet.general eunet.followup & nordunet.general nordunet.followup Both of these pairs are unmoderated. They work fine and people use the followup groups. If a followup is posted to comp.groupware it will be either a mistake or a flame. Readers can choose whether they want to look at these. In extreme cases the kill file will be useful, and if someone wants to hack a few :-) lines of code, we can even have automatically generated kill notices sent to authors who violate protocol. >See alt.sources >for an example. Periodic flaming results from non-source articles in >alt.sources. This is a question of the content of a post. It is not the same as the question of whether the post is a followup. It is not necessary to read a post to see that it is a followup. Posts that are not read will not generate flames. >I know that the groupware proposal included groupware.f. But the people- >voted-for-it argument didn't work for comp.women, sci.aquaria or >comp.protocols.tcp-ip.eniac. It won't work for comp.groupware.f either. It has been suggested and I have agreed that the followup group should be named comp.groupware.followup. The function of the followups group will most likely be changed to be a channel for machine readable evaluations when software becomes available. See my post "Mutual Moderation" in news.groups. This would make it possible for authors to get both positive and negative feedback, and for readers to be highly selective. This improved form of moderation eliminates the need for the moderation by a single person accountable to no one and the associated unfortunate displays of irresponsible behavior seen periodically. Not to mention the delays, lost mail, and other problems associated with moderated groups. The position that voting doesn't work seems to be another argument against the Guidelines. -- David S. Stodolsky, PhD Routing: <@uunet.uu.net:stodol@diku.dk> Department of Psychology Internet: <stodol@diku.dk> Copenhagen Univ., Njalsg. 88 Voice + 45 31 58 48 86 DK-2300 Copenhagen S, Denmark Fax. + 45 31 54 32 11