hugh@kink.UUCP (Hugh D. Gamble @ Phaedra V's Amiga 2500) (01/23/90)
In Message: <Jan.22.16.16.01.1990.5382@richelieu.rutgers.edu> maffray@richelieu.rutgers.edu (Frederic Maffray) writes: >Newsgroups: alt.sex.bondage,alt.sex,alt.flame,news.groups >Subject: Censorship >Date: 22 Jan 90 21:16:03 GMT > >Surprise, this morning. > >"Newsgroup alt.sex.bondage does not have a spool directory!" > >... any longer at the University of Toronto. What is the impact of this on propagation of alt.sex.bondage? > >The following explains it: > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Article 1010 of ont.general: >Newsgroups: ont.general >From: brian@radio.astro.utoronto.ca (Brian Glendenning) >Subject: Objectionable article in alt.sex.bondage >Message-ID: <BRIAN.90Jan20160155@radio.astro.utoronto.ca> >Distribution: ont >Date: 20 Jan 90 16:01:55 > >Recently there was a fantasy posted in alt.sex.bondage that involves >the rape and torture of an unwilling victim. I am rmgrouping this >newsgroup from our system. You may want to review the matter for >yourself. If nothing else, were the new media to find this story I >rather suspect that it would make the fuss over rec.humor.funny of a >while back look like small potatoes. The article in question is: > >Message-ID: <1447@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU> > There definitely is a potential for a "media fuss". I'm reluctant to criticize system administrators who deem it prudent to remove the group. I would ask, however, that this be done with level headed thought, rather than out of spontaneous hysteria. And please, be considerate in informing any downstream sites of any action you decide to take. I hope that sites orphaned by an upstream decision not to carry a.s.b will be able to make alternate feeding arrangements, and ask that open minded (risk taking?) sites be generous in helping to smooth out any unwanted propagation disruptions that arise. Personally, I found the particular article in question distasteful. If all the articles in a.s.b were like that, I might not bother to carry it. As it is, I will continue to carry the group as long as I am able to do so, and endeavor to aid others who so wish, in doing so also. I personally distinguish between: i) Fiction incorporating illegal or unpopular acts. ii) Discussion about illegal or unpopular acts. iii) Discussion or conspiracy with intent to commit illegal acts. iv) The acts themselves. (carrying out actions described in i, ii, or iii) (I'm sure the law isn't always clear and simple, but I'm not a lawyer, just a good ol' layperson who tries to do right by other people.) I am not willing to condone or carry messages in category iii. I'm not sure how I would deal with news articles in category iii, but ceasing to carry a news group because some individual posts a message of that nature to the group would seem unwarranted. The posting at the root of this current batch of rmgroups is in category i, it doesn't give me any ethical trouble to know it has been at this site. This message you are reading now, could conceivably go in ii, I'm willing to defend it also. Let's not blow this out of proportion. I don't believe it's valid to cry censorship because any system administrator or organization decides not to carry a news group. When someone tells me what I may or may not do with my own time and resources, *then* I'll start crying censorship as loudly as anyone. >--- >Frederic Maffray, Toronto, Ontario. -- # Hugh D. Gamble No Disclaimers. # hugh@kink.UUCP # Burning the candle at both ends, or just a flaming ball of wax?
karl@ficc.uu.net (Karl Lehenbauer) (01/24/90)
In article <Jan.22.16.16.01.1990.5382@richelieu.rutgers.edu> maffray@richelieu.rutgers.edu (Frederic Maffray) writes: >From: brian@radio.astro.utoronto.ca (Brian Glendenning) >Recently there was a fantasy posted in alt.sex.bondage that involves >the rape and torture of an unwilling victim. ... >If nothing else, were the new media to find this story I >rather suspect that it would make the fuss over rec.humor.funny of a >while back look like small potatoes. The article in question is: >Message-ID: <1447@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU> I know "Imminent Death Of The Net Predicted" is a long-running joke, and I too am quick to (at least privately) ridicule people who post stuff like that, but I think this a.s.b story, "Cindy's Torment," could cause a lot of problems for the net, like some underage kid is going to read it, his or her parents find out and go bananas. Being against this stuff is like being against drugs -- it's real easy to be righteous and anybody who's not as against it as you are can be attacked as being for it. I think the weight of the state may come down hard against it because it *is* a genuine source of outrage to a lot of people. Next thing you know, some two-bit District Attorney decides to make a name for himself by branding me (or you) a pornographer (my system, sugar, carries alt groups). Under RICO, it would be possible for them to confiscate every piece of electronic equipment I own. It might not be the end of the net, but it could well be the end of alt, and the beginning of a bunch of entanglements for some of us that we neither have the time, resources or inclination to endure. It could also be the end of unmoderated groups -- I'm not saying it will be, but I see it as a possibility. Remember what they did to Jello Biafra. Remember the PMRC. Remember the phone companies getting sued over the content of 900 numbers. We're not the phone company; if we had their resources we might be able to prevail and get usenet declared a common carrier, which it seems to me that it is, but on the deep pocket theory, the most litigious and committed people will be allowed to define what we are because none of us have or will commit the resources to stop them...and we may not like the results. -- -- uunet!ficc!karl "...as long as there is a Legion of super-Heroes, uunet!sugar!karl all else can surely be made right." -- Sensor Girl
brian@radio.astro.utoronto.ca (Brian Glendenning) (01/24/90)
Despite the fact that I had nothing to do with csri's decision, if you disagree with the action of rmgrouping a.s.b it is fair to criticize me since I did the same on my system, and informed other admin's about the article so they could come to their own conclusions. Of course I reject such criticism as invalid and unwarranted. Brian Brian Glendenning - Radio astronomy, University of Toronto brian@radio.astro.utoronto.ca utai!radio.astro!brian glendenn@utorphys.bitnet
kpicott%alias@csri.utoronto.ca (Socrates) (01/24/90)
In article <61722.AA61722@kink> hugh@kink.UUCP (Hugh D. Gamble @ Phaedra V's Amiga 2500) writes: > >Personally, I found the particular article in question distasteful. If >all the articles in a.s.b were like that, I might not bother to carry ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >it. As it is, I will continue to carry the group as long as I am able >to do so, and endeavor to aid others who so wish, in doing so also. > This I think is the key point. If ALL of the articles in any group were like that then it is justifiable to trash it. If ONE of the articles is like that then it is an indication of a single sick mind, but hardly reason to get rid of the group. If it *were* enough reason then I suspect that several "offensive" postings would start to appear in newsgroups that people wanted to get rid of, for whatever reason. Picture a violent chain, leather and Apple//GS article posted into comp.sys.apple by an IBM PS/2 promoter. (No, on second thought... don't :-) If you (as in generic "you", not anyone in particular) feel censorship is justifiable, make sure you know what it is that you are censoring. (ie. the sick ideas, not the messenger that brought them to your attention.) -- Kevin Picott aka Socrates aka kpicott%alias@csri.toronto.edu Alias Research Inc. R+D Toronto, Ontario... like, downtown "There can be no censorship where ideas are ignored" - Mutated proverb
maffray@csri.toronto.edu (Frederic Maffray) (01/24/90)
I was informed that the decision to rmgroup alt.sex.bondage from CSRI machines has nothing to do with Brian Glendenning; it was taken by a person from CSRI. I apologize for causing some confusion and mentioning the name of Mr. Glendenning in something he is not responsible for. --- Frederic Maffray, Toronto, Ontario.
davidsen@crdos1.crd.ge.COM (Wm E Davidsen Jr) (01/25/90)
In article <WJ91IZ8xds12@ficc.uu.net> karl@ficc.uu.net (Karl Lehenbauer) writes: | I know "Imminent Death Of The Net Predicted" is a long-running joke, and | I too am quick to (at least privately) ridicule people who post stuff like | that, but I think this a.s.b story, "Cindy's Torment," could cause a lot | of problems for the net, like some underage kid is going to read it, his | or her parents find out and go bananas. | | Being against this stuff is like being against drugs -- it's real easy to be | righteous and anybody who's not as against it as you are can be attacked as | being for it. I think the weight of the state may come down hard against it | because it *is* a genuine source of outrage to a lot of people. And the people who post this stuff will call you a facist if you delete it. They have nothing to lose and expect you to defend their right to be offensive. I canned the article on three systems, and if it becomes a problem will consider deleting the group. -- bill davidsen (davidsen@crdos1.crd.GE.COM -or- uunet!crdgw1!crdos1!davidsen) "Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -me
mskucherawy@crocus.waterloo.edu (Murray S. Kucherawy) (01/25/90)
Though I don't read alt.sex.bondage myself, it seems to me that you
were really asking to be offended when you entered that news group
to read it. Doesn't the name of the newsgroup or the title of the
posting give you some hint as to whether or not the article could
be offensive?
After watching this discussion, I read the article, and before it
even got nasty, there were substantial warnings that the material
was intense and potentially offensive.
I don't understand what you're upset about. If you don't like the
material in that newsgroup, then don't read it. There's no need to
cut it off from everyone else.
============================================================================
Murray S. Kucherawy "Betcha byte a chip!"
E-Mail: mskucherawy@{watmath | dahlia | crocus | trillium}.waterloo.edu
Faculty of Mathematics (Comp Sci), University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario
Gamesmaster/Postmaster, UW Computer Science Club (watcsc.waterloo.edu)
System Manager, VAX/VMS Network, Board of Education, London, Ontariosccowan@watmsg.waterloo.edu (S. Crispin Cowan) (01/25/90)
In article <20130@watdragon.waterloo.edu> mskucherawy@crocus.waterloo.edu (Murray S. Kucherawy) writes: >Though I don't read alt.sex.bondage myself, it seems to me that you >were really asking to be offended when you entered that news group >to read it. This is true. Unfortunately, the world is populated in part by pushy, conservative twits (none of the people in this discussion) in important jobs. The case, as I see it, is: 1. Ethically, there is nothing wrong with carrying the group; as you said, if you don't like the tone of something, then don't read it. 2. Sys admins that DO carry the group were slightly at risk, due to it's inflamatory content and low academic/research value. 3. Sys admins that now carry the group are not at high risk of being shat upon from great height by said pushy conservative twits who happen to be important. Like media people who can call you all sorts of unpleasant names, and don't have to print the rebuttals in anywhere near the same point size. So while I would like to see the group continue to propagate, and just ignore the flaming garbage like the message in question, I understand why University-run government funded computer systems may not be free to do so. It's sad, but it's true. >Murray S. Kucherawy "Betcha byte a chip!" >E-Mail: mskucherawy@{watmath | dahlia | crocus | trillium}.waterloo.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (S.) Crispin Cowan, CS grad student, University of Waterloo Office: DC3548 x3934 Home phone: 570-2517 Post Awful: 60 Overlea Drive, Kitchener, N2M 1T1 UUCP: watmath!watmsg!sccowan Domain: sccowan@watmsg.waterloo.edu "The most important question when any new computer architecture is introduced is `So what?'" -someone on comp.arch (if it was you, let me know & I'll credit it)
sccowan@watmsg.waterloo.edu (S. Crispin Cowan) (01/25/90)
In article <33573@watmath.waterloo.edu> sccowan@watmsg.waterloo.edu (S. Crispin Cowan) writes: I hate one-word corrections, but this one changes the meaning of my message completely. > 3. Sys admins that now carry the group are not at high risk ^^^ This should read 'now'. Crispin
kim@watnow.waterloo.edu (T. Kim Nguyen) (01/25/90)
In article <33573@watmath.waterloo.edu> sccowan@watmsg.waterloo.edu (S. Crispin Cowan) writes: In article <20130@watdragon.waterloo.edu> mskucherawy@crocus.waterloo.edu (Murray S. Kucherawy) writes: >Though I don't read alt.sex.bondage myself, it seems to me that you >were really asking to be offended when you entered that news group >to read it. This is true. Unfortunately, the world is populated in part by pushy, conservative twits (none of the people in this discussion) in important jobs. The case, as I see it, is: 1. Ethically, there is nothing wrong with carrying the group; as you said, if you don't like the tone of something, then don't read it. [...and other points...] I am not a "pushy conservative twit" but I feel that the content of that posting was truly disgusting and actually quite frightening. Usually I am quite strongly against censorship, but this sort of rape/hurting/debasing type of fantasy is warped and twisted. I believe everyone should be able to fantasize, but hey I'm sorry none of the fantasies I had imagined NORMAL people to have involved the kind of garbage described in "Cindy's Torment". There are fantasies and then there are fantasies, but I would fear the person who gets his or her jollies from tormenting, torturing, violating, and dehumanizing people. Disclaimers and warnings or not, you might as well use the network to disseminate hate propaganda. If Canadians found the Zundel case disturbing, "Cindy's Torment" is hate propaganda directed towards (at the very least) women -- a considerably larger minority than Jews. -- T. Kim Nguyen kim@watsup.waterloo.{edu|cdn} kim@watsup.uwaterloo.ca {uunet|utzoo|utai|decvax}watmath!watsup!kim Systems Design Engineering -- University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
mskucherawy@dahlia.waterloo.edu (Murray S. Kucherawy) (01/26/90)
In article <KIM.90Jan25080222@watnow.waterloo.edu> kim@watnow.waterloo.edu (T. Kim Nguyen) writes: >I am not a "pushy conservative twit" but I feel that the content of >that posting was truly disgusting and actually quite frightening. >Usually I am quite strongly against censorship, but this sort of >rape/hurting/debasing type of fantasy is warped and twisted. I >believe everyone should be able to fantasize, but hey I'm sorry none >of the fantasies I had imagined NORMAL people to have involved the >kind of garbage described in "Cindy's Torment". There are fantasies >and then there are fantasies, but I would fear the person who gets his >or her jollies from tormenting, torturing, violating, and dehumanizing >people. Disclaimers and warnings or not, you might as well use the >network to disseminate hate propaganda. If Canadians found the Zundel >case disturbing, "Cindy's Torment" is hate propaganda directed towards >(at the very least) women -- a considerably larger minority than Jews. >-- >T. Kim Nguyen kim@watsup.waterloo.{edu|cdn} > kim@watsup.uwaterloo.ca > {uunet|utzoo|utai|decvax}watmath!watsup!kim >Systems Design Engineering -- University of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada I'm afraid my point wasn't entirely clear. I don't condone the postings of such dehumanizing things as that story (as a matter of fact, I found it rather disgusting as well). My point is that it is unfair of the various site administrators to complain that they were offended and that the news group should be discontinued, when just by the name of the newsgroup, the posting's title, and the disclaimer's and the warning's texts, they should hve been well aware of the potential of the material to be grossly offensive. Thanks to S. Crispin Cowan for his support. ============================================================================ Murray S. Kucherawy "Betcha byte a chip!" E-Mail: mskucherawy@{watmath | dahlia | crocus | trillium}.waterloo.edu Faculty of Mathematics (Comp Sci), University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario Gamesmaster/Postmaster, UW Computer Science Club (watcsc.waterloo.edu) System Manager, VAX/VMS Network, Board of Education, London, Ontario