jeffd@ficc.uu.net (jeff daiell) (01/22/90)
Amy implied surprise if there were not 100 persons on the net
who would vote NO on a skinhead group. As much as I loathe
and despite National Socialism and racism, I would not vote
No to their having their own group. Nor do I think that everyone
voting yes would do so from agreement with their statist/collectivist
distemper ... I suspect some would vote yes to help reduce traffic
in other groups, or from a belief that every ideology should have
its own group, or other motives.
Jeff D.
PS - Trisha, I heard Ann speak Saturday night. The drawl she had
in '88 was remarkably missing!
--
If a hungry man has water, and a thirsty man has bread,
Then if they trade, be not dismayed, they both come out ahead.
-- Don Paarlbergtom@mims-iris.waterloo.edu (Tom Haapanen) (01/22/90)
jeff daiell <jeffd@ficc.uu.net> writes: > Amy implied surprise if there were not 100 persons on the net > who would vote NO on a skinhead group. As much as I loathe > and despite National Socialism and racism [...] This morning, CFNY in Toronto did a short feature on skinheads, including an interview of some police officials. Some items of interest follow: * Most skinheads are not violent. The violent skinhead gangs are made up of "street kids"; most of those classified as skinheads are showing their disenchantment with the system by looking radical. * Most skinheads are not racist. The feature included interviews with two members of SHARP (SkinHeads Against Racial Prejudice). I have also personally seen several skinheads wearing "Skinheads Against Racism" T-shirts -- showing a (Doc Marten) boot trampling a swastika. * Real skinheads don't even listen to punk; the correct skinhead music of choice is ska. The haircuts and music both arrived from Jamaica in the '70s; the dress and boots were originally just comfortable work clothing. Prejudice against skinheads is just another form of racism; judging all skinheads by the white supremacists you see on TV is just as bad as judging all blacks by Rev. Al Sharpley or Malcolm X... \tom haapanen "now, you didn't really expect tom@mims-iris.waterloo.edu my views to have anything to do watmims research group with my employer's, did you?" university of waterloo "I don't even know what street Canada is on" -- Al Capone
jeffd@ficc.uu.net (jeff daiell) (01/23/90)
In article <693@watserv1.waterloo.edu>, tom@mims-iris.waterloo.edu (Tom Haapanen) writes: > Prejudice against skinheads is just another form of racism; judging all > skinheads by the white supremacists you see on TV is just as bad as > judging all blacks by Rev. Al Sharpley or Malcolm X... Whoa! I'm the one who first posted the difference between the two types of skinheads! But the discussion to which I was replying centered on the National Socialist skinheads, so I didn't see a need to repeat the distinction. If that was an inaccurate perception, I apologize. Be that as it may, let them have their group. Jeff BTW, considering his rejection of anti-Caucasian racism toward the end of his life, it is a great injustice to lump Malcolm X with the Rev. Sharpley. -- If a hungry man has water, and a thirsty man has bread, Then if they trade, be not dismayed, they both come out ahead. -- Don Paarlberg
cr1@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Christopher Roth) (01/23/90)
In article <LH81OS8xds8@ficc.uu.net> jeffd@ficc.uu.net (jeff daiell) writes: > >Amy implied surprise if there were not 100 persons on the net >who would vote NO on a skinhead group. As much as I loathe >and despite National Socialism and racism, I would not vote >No to their having their own group. [Text has been Deleted] Agreed. Are we being asked to vote as to wether we agree to the ideology in question, or are we being asked to vote as to wether the topic warrents a group of its own. This is a subject of much controversy, I feel the only way to defeat racism is to get it out in the open where it can be discussed. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= * Christoper Roth * "Machines have no * InterNet : cr1@beach.cis.ufl.edu * Conscience..." =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Post No Bills-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
gorin@mit-amt.MEDIA.MIT.EDU (Amy Gorin) (01/23/90)
In article <21893@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> cr1@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Christopher Roth) writes: >In article <LH81OS8xds8@ficc.uu.net> jeffd@ficc.uu.net (jeff daiell) writes: >> >>Amy implied surprise if there were not 100 persons on the net >>who would vote NO on a skinhead group. As much as I loathe >>and despite National Socialism and racism, I would not vote >>No to their having their own group. >This is a subject of much controversy, I >feel the only way to defeat racism is to get it out in the open where >it can be discussed. Actually, I wouldn't vote no myself. I would, however, read the newsgroup - if only to keep track of planned rallys and actions so I could show up on the opposing side (as I am sure is already done in other groups by other people/organizations, for all that the denizens of those groups may not want to admit it.) However, their own space is their own space. I'm sure racist skinheads would no more welcome left-wing attacks/arguements (you may have a different definition than they do) than folks in .newage or .motss welcome fundie flaming. Of course, if the "tolerant" skinheads manage to convert the "supremicist" skinheads, so much the better. The other problem comes when the not-necessarily-left-wing-but-certainly- alarmist press gets ahold of the story that SKINHEADS are using OUR TAX DOLLARS to ORGANIZE. We have no real ground except prejudice upon which to deny them this group. But we may defend with our (net) lives their right to start it. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- gorin@media-lab.media.mit.edu There's a seeker mit-eddie!mit-amt!gorin born every minute
wbt@cbnews.ATT.COM (William B. Thacker) (01/25/90)
In article <693@watserv1.waterloo.edu> tom@mims-iris.waterloo.edu (Tom Haapanen) writes: > >* Most skinheads are not violent. > >* Most skinheads are not racist. > >* Real skinheads don't even listen to punk; the correct skinhead music > of choice is ska. > >Prejudice against skinheads is just another form of racism; judging all >skinheads by the white supremacists you see on TV is just as bad as >judging all blacks by Rev. Al Sharpley or Malcolm X... So far, I've seen a dozen postings saying "skinheads aren't all as bad as the ones you hear about." I take this, therefore, as a fact. Yet is still leaves unanswered a basic question. Just what in tarnation *do* skinheads stand for ? Before I vote for or against a group for them, I want to know what purpose they intend for it. I base opinions on the information I have at hand. To date, all I have to go on is what I see and hear from mass media, and it makes skinheads look pretty bad. If y'all want to change my vote, you'll have to change my opinion with some information. - - - - - - - - valuable coupon - - - - - - - clip and save - - - - - - - - Bill Thacker AT&T Network Systems - Columbus wbt@cbnews.att.com Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero
meo@stiatl.UUCP (Miles O'Neal) (01/26/90)
In article <13460@cbnews.ATT.COM> wbt@cbnews.ATT.COM (William B. Thacker,00440,cb,1D211,6148604019) writes: |So far, I've seen a dozen postings saying "skinheads aren't all as bad |as the ones you hear about." I take this, therefore, as a fact. | |Yet is still leaves unanswered a basic question. Just what in tarnation |*do* skinheads stand for ? Before I vote for or against a group for |them, I want to know what purpose they intend for it. Calvin, are you daydreaming again? What are the skinheads for? No, maam. They are for a type of music called ska, and they are generally nonviolent. They are probably less of a political/societal force than, say, new wave or the Carpenters. A small minority of neo-fascist flakes have adopted the skinhead look, and the mass media has helped make them into "a phenomenon". |I base opinions on the information I have at hand. To date, all I have to |go on is what I see and hear from mass media, and it makes skinheads look |pretty bad. If y'all want to change my vote, you'll have to change my |opinion with some information. VERY good, Calvin! Now, would you care to comment on the mass media's handling of this? Not really. I would, however, note that people who form their opinions based primarily on taling the mass media as projecting reality scare me far more than all the self-proclaimed neo-nazis in this country. Calvin, need I remind you that I own stock in mass media, to say nothing of certain telecommunications companies? Well, teach, all I got to say is I've been a staunch loyalist to AT&T all this time, but some of their employees begin to worry me... \ / ---=*miles*=---