[news.groups] RFD: Comp.sys.handhelds split reworking

mandel@vax.anes.tulane.edu (Jeff E Mandel MD MS) (05/18/91)

1) There seems to be no one who opposes comp.sources.hp48, so I see little
reason to modify this. If a comp.binaries.hp48 is needed, this should be
completely noncontroversial as well.
2) The line of demarcation that people want to draw is between orientation of
users. I would suggest that the solution could be:

comp.sys.handhelds.programmers (for programming any machine)
comp.sys.handhelds.organizers  (for using any machine to keep notes, phone #s)

It is possible that an additional group would be useful:

comp.sys.handhelds.connectivity (for connecting any machine to another device)

I know this is a sea change from what I advocated in the past, but if this is
what people want, I will see what the net.gods have to say (if any of you are
reading this and want to inject your comments into the discussion, feel free).
So, if you like this proposal, let me know. If there is a firestorm against it,
I see little reason to abandon .HP48.

Jeff E Mandel MD MS
Asst. Professor of Anesthesiology
Tulane University School of Medicine
New Orleans, LA
mandel@vax.anes.tulane.edu

rsholmes@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Rich Holmes) (05/20/91)

In article <7530@rex.cs.tulane.edu> mandel@vax.anes.tulane.edu writes:
>comp.sys.handhelds.programmers (for programming any machine)
>comp.sys.handhelds.organizers  (for using any machine to keep notes, phone #s)
>
>It is possible that an additional group would be useful:
>
>comp.sys.handhelds.connectivity (for connecting any machine to another device)

WHAT?????  

Are you seriously suggesting that issues relating to HP48 programming,
HP48 alarms, and HP48-to-computer connections should be put (1) in separate
groups and (2) respectively in the same groups with postings about all other
calculator/palmtop programming, all other personal organizers, and all other
handheld-to-computer connectivity?

I'm appalled.  You've gone from one newgroup in which (some) people
are unhappy about too many HP48 posts, to three in which those same people
will be unhappy, and probably all three will be of interest to most of us.

>So, if you like this proposal, let me know. If there is a firestorm against it,
>I see little reason to abandon .HP48.

In other words, this is a straw man?  "Either support this ludicrous idea, or
support my original proposal"?

Perhaps you should reread the discussion.  What I see a
lot of support for is NOT a split along usage lines for all handhelds, but
a split between different kinds of handhelds -- one that recognizes that,
with the probable exception of the HP95, the HP handhelds belong together.

Please do go to the Net-Gods, but with a proposal like:

  c.s.calculators.hp
  c.s.calculators.misc
  c.s.palmtops

... or something along those lines.

(As always, I really see no need for a split, but I'll reluctantly support
a split along lines that make some kind of sense).
-- 
 - Rich Holmes                  rich@suhep.bitnet or rich@suhep.phy.syr.edu
   Syracuse U. Physics Dept.     or if you must: rsholmes@rodan.acs.syr.edu

   The Kuwaitis have oil.  The Kurds don't.  End of story.

LEIF@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (05/20/91)

In article <7530@rex.cs.tulane.edu>, mandel@vax.anes.tulane.edu (Jeff E Mandel
MD MS) says:
>
>1) There seems to be no one who opposes comp.sources.hp48, so I see little
>reason to modify this.

This seems to totally ignore the recent postings in support of a split:

comp.sys.handhelds (or .calculators)
comp.sys.palmtops

If you are going to give us a choice of comp.sys.hp48 or nothing, then I
for one, will be forced to vote against it, EVEN though I am TOTALLY in
support of a RATIONAL split to solve the problem PERMNANANTLY!
Why are you ignoring the support for the proposal mentioned above?
Do the participating members of the comp.sys.handhelds group have ANY
input into the final split decision other than to vote for or against
whatever kind of split you independantly decide upon???  If you are not
going to give us any better choice than comp.sys.hp48, or:

>I would suggest that the solution could be:
>comp.sys.handhelds.programmers (for programming any machine)
>comp.sys.handhelds.organizers  (for using any machine to keep notes, phone #s)

Which I find to be a pathetic attempt to muddy the water and cloud the
real issue, namely:  Do we want to separate the different kinds of machines
(ie palmtops and calculators, with option of narrowing within these two fields)
or do we want to simply get the HP48 the H*LL out of the .Handhelds group
without any consideration for what the end-users of the groups are
interested in accomplishing, in terms of a long-term, logical solution?

>I see little reason to abandon .HP48.
>
>Jeff E Mandel MD MS
>Asst. Professor of Anesthesiology
>Tulane University School of Medicine
>New Orleans, LA
>mandel@vax.anes.tulane.edu

Please at least respond to this.  Acknowlege the obvious support which
has been demonstrated for a logical split along the lines of palmtops vs
calculators, PLEASE!!!  I want this group split; however, I will not be
railroaded into voting for the "lesser of two evils".  If we have no say
in what kind of split will happen (only IF it WILL happen) then please
explain WHY?????

-Leif Johnson                            leif@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu

asmith@acorn.co.uk (Andy Smith) (05/20/91)

In article <7530@rex.cs.tulane.edu> mandel@vax.anes.tulane.edu (Jeff E Mandel MD MS) writes:

>1) There seems to be no one who opposes comp.sources.hp48, so I see little
>reason to modify this. 

Agreed. There should be a sources feed. 


>2) The line of demarcation that people want to draw is between orientation of
>users. I would suggest that the solution could be:

>comp.sys.handhelds.programmers (for programming any machine)
>comp.sys.handhelds.organizers  (for using any machine to keep notes, phone #s)

>It is possible that an additional group would be useful:

>comp.sys.handhelds.connectivity (for connecting any machine to another device)

Jeff, What the??? Now your suggesting that we have to read three news groups
instead of the current one. The idea I thought was to group the RPL users
away from the MS-DOS users and non-HP calculator users. Most of those
posting to this discussion are settling on :-

comp.sys.palmtops
comp.sys.calculators

>I know this is a sea change from what I advocated in the past, but if this is
>what people want, I will see what the net.gods have to say (if any of you are

Are you just playing devils advocate? I agree that the net.gods should be
approched, but with the majority idea, NOT with something that makes life
worse.

>So, if you like this proposal, let me know. If there is a firestorm against it,
>I see little reason to abandon .HP48.

Yes there will be a firestorm against it. I for one think its less than
sensible, however I also do not agree with the form of your original idea,
but your wording implies a choice of the two and no freedom to back the
correct proposal??

>Jeff E Mandel MD MS

Andy

taber@ultnix.enet.dec.com (Patrick St. Joseph Teahan Taber) (05/20/91)

In article <7530@rex.cs.tulane.edu>, mandel@vax.anes.tulane.edu (Jeff E
Mandel MD MS) writes:
|>2) The line of demarcation that people want to draw is between
|>orientation of
|>users. I would suggest that the solution could be:
|>
|>comp.sys.handhelds.programmers (for programming any machine)
|>comp.sys.handhelds.organizers  (for using any machine to keep notes,
|>phone #s)
|>
|>It is possible that an additional group would be useful:
|>
|>comp.sys.handhelds.connectivity (for connecting any machine to another
|>device)
|>

Over the past few days, I think what we've seen is a movement to support 

comp.sys.handhelds (calculators)
comp.sys.palmtops  (BOSS, OZ, HP95, etc.)

Now at this juncture, I can't see why it wouldn't suit you to also
support this. If you support it, then I believe you'll have consensus
which is required before you move to a call for vote.  (it's in the
guidelines -- ask the net.gods.)

This proposal has a lot of advantages -- the calculators stay together,
the mailing lists don't break, comp.sys.handhelds already exists, so
there's only a single name up for vote.  When split-the-group fever
first hit, the complaint was that the HP48 had to go because the only
other split that would relieve you was "comp.sys.handhelds.not-hp".  Now
an alternate proposal accomodates you without having to disaccomodate
the traditional c.s.h people.  Looks like a win-win to me.

If you think that organizers are not ".palmtops", you could probably add
a ".organizers" group and still carry, even though you're going to make
things more complex by having to vote several names (the binaries group
should be unopposed, but it still has to be voted.)


--
                                             >>>==>PStJTT
                                     Patrick St. Joseph Teahan Taber, KC1TD

"Nerd" is so demeaning, I prefer "fashion-impared."

IMS103@psuvm.psu.edu (Ian Matthew Smith) (05/22/91)

My $.02 cents...

comp.sys.palmtops
comp.sys.calculators

Theses two newsgroups would be my personal choice.  They may not
be everyones, and thats where this idea of voting comes from.
(Sigh, life would be so much easier if I always got my way. Well,
for me at least ;-) Anyway, I don't really mind those few articles
pertaining to non-hp calculators, but if the non-hp posters want
us out, I would vote for a comp.sys.calculators.hp.  Thats my addition
to the noise.  I'll try and post somthing more usefull later to make
up for it. :)

 - Ian Smith <<ims103@psuvm.psu.edu>>