pat@seradg.Dayton.NCR.COM (Patrick Pesch) (10/11/87)
[gobble, munch...] I have been kicking around the idea of starting a public access Unix system and have some questions about how much work/expense would be involved, as well as the demand for such systems. I am especially interested in hearing from administrators of other such systems, as well as public access Unix users. While I would not be going into this as a "money making" venture, I *would* like it to be as self supporting as possible. I would also be using this system for my own use, at least initially, but not for any work in conjunction with my present job. I would like to start with a 286/386 based machine, running either Microport Unix, Interactive Systems Unix, or SCO Xenix. I work with SCO Xenix on a 286 machine, but I am assuming right now that they are all fairly similiar in terms of "vanilla" SVR2 Unix support. I would want to support multiple dial-in lines using one of the 4-8 port serial cards that appear to be readily available. Here are some of the questions that I have about starting such a system: o Is there a user need for such systems in moderately sized cities? How would one go about advertising such a service? o Is a 286 machine enough to support such a system (i.e. anybody out there doing it successfully now) or do I *have* to go 386? o Can a machine of the 286/386 class support usenet links, and provide "news" (Assuming large disks, etc...)? How much additional system administration burden does this require? o Would I inherit any overwhelming legal responsibilities (i.e. down time, data loss, etc...)? o What sort of charges would be "fair"? Should they be based on connect time only, etc... o Is there much public domain (or cheap) "BBS like" software for Unix? Is this type of software necessary, or would most users just want access to one of the standard shells anyway? o How much TIME would it require (like in hrs/wk)? If anybody out there has ANY experiences they would be nice enough to share with me, I would appreciate it. I suppose direct E-mail would be the best way to respond, but if you think it may be of general interest, post it for everyone... THANKS in advance, Patrick Pesch NCR Corporation / Systems Engineering Retail Dayton, OH
davidsen@steinmetz.steinmetz.UUCP (William E. Davidsen Jr) (10/13/87)
I waited a few days for someone else to answer this, but I guess it's that time... In article <834@seradg.Dayton.NCR.COM> pat@seradg.Dayton.NCR.COM (Patrick Pesch) writes: | I have been kicking around the idea of starting a public access | Unix system and have some questions about how much work/expense would be | involved, as well as the demand for such systems. I am especially | [ etc ] You will not make money on it. You will not break even. People will try to break your system. This is generally true of any public access anything. It will take all the time you're willing to give it. | | I would like to start with a 286/386 based machine, running either | Microport Unix, Interactive Systems Unix, or SCO Xenix. I work with SCO | Xenix on a 286 machine, but I am assuming right now that they are all | fairly similiar in terms of "vanilla" SVR2 Unix support. I would want | to support multiple dial-in lines using one of the 4-8 port serial cards | that appear to be readily available. Here are some of the questions | that I have about starting such a system: I would not use a 286 machine, not because it lacks power or whatever, but because there is so much poorly written software around that assumes that pointer <same as> int. There will be many users who don't understand that this is incorrect practice by both K&R and X3J11 ANSI, and whoo will blame "brain-damaged hardware." I use a unix-ps, since it's really cheap right now, and uses a 68010. | | o Is there a user need for such systems in moderately sized | cities? How would one go about advertising such a service? Less than you think. The number of people who want UNIX access but don't have access to a machine at a school, and who will work at dialup baudrates, is fairly small. Most of my use is people running the BBS. | | o Is a 286 machine enough to support such a system (i.e. anybody | out there doing it successfully now) or do I *have* to go | 386? See above. The 286 has adequate power. There have been many reports of problems with the serial port device drivers in MicroPort V/AT, and I would suggest using either Bell Tech or SCO Xenix. | | o Can a machine of the 286/386 class support usenet links, and | provide "news" (Assuming large disks, etc...)? How much | additional system administration burden does this require? You will have to expire (read: delete) old articles or have a hugh disk. See the 'lists' postings for volume, but figure at least 1MB/day coming in. You will need special versions of news for a 286 (minor midifications). | | o Would I inherit any overwhelming legal responsibilities | (i.e. down time, data loss, etc...)? Not if you state what service you are willing to provide. Check with a lawyer in your state for details. | | o What sort of charges would be "fair"? Should they be based on | connect time only, etc... I get $15 one time fee, Randy (randy@chinet.uucp) Suess gets $50/year, the last time I checked. You might want to charge for disk usage, although I just limit mine. If a user is over the limit my program deletes the largest file in his directory. Repeat as needed. Actually I delete executables first, to save the source. | | o Is there much public domain (or cheap) "BBS like" software for | Unix? Is this type of software necessary, or would most users | just want access to one of the standard shells anyway? I found that BBS was about 70% of my usage (I have mail but not news). Surprisingly a lot of the balance is nroff (a CPU hog if ever there was one). I run a seriously hacked version of UNaXcess, which was posted to the net some time ago. Brandon has asked that no one distribute modified source, but you might ask him if you want mine. I just followed user suggestions and closed holes. | | o How much TIME would it require (like in hrs/wk)? Figure 1hr/day just to keep things current. Backup time depends on your disk size and hardware. Whatever time you want to use getting new software, etc, will be needed. I can't remember when there wasn't something I could do if I had time. | | If anybody out there has ANY experiences they would be nice enough to | share with me, I would appreciate it. I suppose direct E-mail would be | the best way to respond, but if you think it may be of general interest, | post it for everyone... Notes: You can get a unix-pc (actually 3B1) with 2MB memory and 67MB hard disk for <$2k. You can add 0.5MB and a 2nd serial for ~$250. Unfortunately the next step up is expensive: 4 port serial ~$600, tape backup ~$700. Software will be about $500. Use a "smart" serial board for any system with more than 2 lines. Otherwise you will notice that file transfers are eating your CPU. If you offer uucp access ask me for a copy of the article on hardening the uucp system. If you want to run the users "in a box" I have code to run a small pseudo system under chroot. This can be handy, but has some drawbacks related to mail, news, etc. I only use it as a demo system. You can get a ready to run 386 box (2MB/40MB 2s/1p) with UNIX for about $4k. This will probably be my next upgrade. In many places you can get a phone line which is called "untimed message" service. This means that you pay one fee per call, regardless of length. This cost me about $14/mo, and additional lines, including hunt group service, cost $4.50/mo. This may not be available in your area. You may find that many people just want to use you as a news or mail feed for their machines, particularly the users with the $1k version of the unix-pc and no dedicated line. The system will take more money and time than you can imagine. It will be more fun that you can imagine, too. ================================================================ This is getting long, drop me a line if you want more info. -- bill davidsen (wedu@ge-crd.arpa) {uunet | philabs | seismo}!steinmetz!crdos1!davidsen "Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -me
randy@chinet.UUCP (Randy Suess) (10/14/87)
In article <7617@steinmetz.steinmetz.UUCP> davidsen@crdos1.UUCP (bill davidsen) writes: >I waited a few days for someone else to answer this, but I guess it's >You will not make money on it. You will not break even. People will try >to break your system. This is generally true of any public access >anything. It will take all the time you're willing to give it. Man, you got that right. >| >| o What sort of charges would be "fair"? Should they be based on >| connect time only, etc... > >I get $15 one time fee, Randy (randy@chinet.uucp) Suess gets $50/year, >the last time I checked. Access to chinet is free. Email thru ihnp4, the Picospan conferencing system, and full SysVr3.1 UNIX on a 3b2 is available to all. What the $50 per year gets is a number of extra lines, access to posting to usenet, (gives me some concrete evidence via the check as to who is posting), and a uucp login for file transfer. I archive most of all the source and binary groups. As with Bill, this is a hobby, and along with CBBS, I have 12 fone lines to pay for, along with all the regular miscellaneous expenses in running an active UNIX machine. Believe me, most public access systems owners are not in it for the money. You will find, that if you want a lot of activity, you will have to provide a good bbs program, such as Brandon's UnAccess or Marcus's PicoSpan. Four years ago, when I put up my first UNIX system, most users wanted to play with UNIX, but now with the availability of cheap UNIX boxes, that has died way down. -- that's the biz, sweetheart..... Randy Suess ..!ihnp4!chinet!randy
smdev@csustan.UUCP (Scott Hazen Mueller) (10/14/87)
In article <7617@steinmetz.steinmetz.UUCP> davidsen@crdos1.UUCP (bill davidsen) writes: >In article <834@seradg.Dayton.NCR.COM> pat@seradg.Dayton.NCR.COM (Patrick Pesch) writes: >| o Can a machine of the 286/386 class support usenet links, and >| provide "news" (Assuming large disks, etc...)? How much >| additional system administration burden does this require? > >You will have to expire (read: delete) old articles or have a hugh disk. >See the 'lists' postings for volume, but figure at least 1MB/day coming >in. You will need special versions of news for a 286 (minor midifications). Having recently gone through the "how much news can I take" calculations: News traffic was approximately 30 Mbyte over two weeks - ~2 M/day (source: uunet traffic statistics postings). I run expire -e2 -E7 - keep news 2 days, keep history information 7 days (7 days is the time it takes for an article to reach 99% propogation). News comes up quite nicely on a 386 system, but the disk subsystem may not offer enough throughput for news and interactive use - I don't know, because my 386 is at work, and news goes at night. Multiple disks and multiple partitions/disk will help, though. >Notes: > You can get a unix-pc (actually 3B1) with 2MB memory and 67MB hard >disk for <$2k. You can add 0.5MB and a 2nd serial for ~$250. >Unfortunately the next step up is expensive: 4 port serial ~$600, tape >backup ~$700. Software will be about $500. My understanding (via CIS) is that The Sale Is Over. Rumor has it that a European organization bought out AT&T's *entire* remaining stock of 3B1s. > You can get a ready to run 386 box (2MB/40MB 2s/1p) with UNIX for >about $4k. This will probably be my next upgrade. I'd consider this a bit small. My 386 system (3M/40M 2s/1p) has about 17M freespace, and this is after several days with repeatedly light news flows. Of that, 10M is an MsDos partition, so things are really tight - when the Usenet maps came through, the disk nearly filled... > bill davidsen \scott
gk@kksys.UUCP (Greg Kemnitz) (10/16/87)
In article <7617@steinmetz.steinmetz.UUCP> davidsen@crdos1.UUCP (bill davidsen) writes: >I would not use a 286 machine, not because it lacks power or whatever, >but because there is so much poorly written software around that assumes >that pointer <same as> int. There will be many users who don't >understand that this is incorrect practice by both K&R and X3J11 ANSI, >and whoo will blame "brain-damaged hardware." I use a unix-ps, since >it's really cheap right now, and uses a 68010. ... >Less than you think. The number of people who want UNIX access but don't >have access to a machine at a school, and who will work at dialup >baudrates, is fairly small. Most of my use is people running the BBS. If most users run the bbs, they will not be complaining about "brain damaged" hardware. The few who want access to real unix hopefully will be understanding. The folks who use this system generally flame about the *&^$&*^%&*# idiot who write lousy code. >See above. The 286 has adequate power. There have been many reports of >problems with the serial port device drivers in MicroPort V/AT, and I >would suggest using either Bell Tech or SCO Xenix. The serial line problems have been with 9600 baud links. Since I suspect there will not be any 9600 baud modems on line, I doubt this will be a problem. In any case, the just-released 2.3 version is supposed to fix this problem. >You will have to expire (read: delete) old articles or have a hugh disk. >See the 'lists' postings for volume, but figure at least 1MB/day coming >in. You will need special versions of news for a 286 (minor midifications). Hmmm. We are running a "stock" news 2.11 release. We are at patch level 8, and are now installing patches 9 and 10. What modifications were you referring to? > bill davidsen (wedu@ge-crd.arpa) > {uunet | philabs | seismo}!steinmetz!crdos1!davidsen -- Greg Kemnitz | amdahl \ K and K Systems | ihnp4 !meccts!kksys!gk P.O. Box 41804 | rutgers/ Plymouth, MN 55441-0804 | AT&T and clones: (612)475-1527
karl@grebyn.COM (Karl A. Nyberg) (10/19/87)
In article <834@seradg.Dayton.NCR.COM>, pat@seradg.Dayton.NCR.COM (Patrick Pesch) writes: > o Is there a user need for such systems in moderately sized > cities? How would one go about advertising such a service? I run such a service in metropolitan Washington, DC. Not exactly a moderatly sized city. I have users from Dallas to Boston, as well as local folks. Advertisement is mostly word of mouth, and on the appropriate electronic forums, in computer stores, and the local high tech business papers. > o Is a 286 machine enough to support such a system (i.e. anybody > out there doing it successfully now) or do I *have* to go > 386? Dunno. I use a microvax II. It's supposedly rated at .9x MIPS. > > o Would I inherit any overwhelming legal responsibilities > (i.e. down time, data loss, etc...)? If there are, I haven't been hit with them, YET. I disclaim all that stuff in the timesharing agreement that people sign, so I am HOPEFULLY covered. > o What sort of charges would be "fair"? Should they be based on > connect time only, etc... Well... I charge $10 to sign up. $25 / month minimum gets 10 hours connect, 1 hour CPU, and 1/2 MB disk quota. After that, it's $2/Connect, and $50/CPU. Hardly ANYBODY ever uses more than 1 hr CPU. > o Is there much public domain (or cheap) "BBS like" software for > Unix? Is this type of software necessary, or would most users > just want access to one of the standard shells anyway? Well, having a VAX is just about the most popular machine for software, and Ultrix is so close to BSD that just about everything that comes across the net compiles and runs on the system fine. I have USENET news 2.11(8), Gnu EMACS(18.49), smail (2.2?), etc. > o How much TIME would it require (like in hrs/wk)? It varies. Days on end when I'm trying to upgrade the system. Otherwise, usually less than an hour a day. -- Karl -- Karl A. Nyberg Grebyn Corporation karl@grebyn.com P. O. Box 1144 nyberg@ajpo.sei.cmu.edu Vienna, VA 22180 {decuac,umd5,vrdxhq}!grebyn!karl 703-281-2194
larry@kitty.UUCP (Larry Lippman) (10/20/87)
In article <834@seradg.Dayton.NCR.COM>, pat@seradg.Dayton.NCR.COM (Patrick Pesch) writes: > > o Is there a user need for such systems in moderately sized > cities? How would one go about advertising such a service? I would think that if you had a decent laser printer, one of the most useful services that a public access system could provide is document preparation using the standard DWB utilities. You could charge a per page cost for use of the laser printer, plus a handling charge to mail the output. Users could prepare copy online, or offline on perhaps their own PC, and use a suitable protocol to upload the *roff files to the unix system. I make the above observation because my organization allows some selected non-employees to access our systems for this sole purpose. While we charge no money because we do this as a good will gesture, I have been told by a few people whose businesses we benefit in this manner that small businesses would be willing to pay a fair amount for such a service. So, perhaps stressing the availablity of UNIX document preparation features could cost-justify a laser printer, along with defraying other expenses. <> Larry Lippman @ Recognition Research Corp., Clarence, New York <> UUCP: {allegra|ames|boulder|decvax|rutgers|watmath}!sunybcs!kitty!larry <> VOICE: 716/688-1231 {hplabs|ihnp4|mtune|seismo|utzoo}!/ <> FAX: 716/741-9635 {G1,G2,G3 modes} "Have you hugged your cat today?"
jmsully@uport.UUCP (John M. Sully) (10/23/87)
In article <982@csustan.UUCP>, smdev@csustan.UUCP (Scott Hazen Mueller) writes: > In article <7617@steinmetz.steinmetz.UUCP> davidsen@crdos1.UUCP (bill davidsen) writes: > >In article <834@seradg.Dayton.NCR.COM> pat@seradg.Dayton.NCR.COM (Patrick Pesch) writes: > >| o Can a machine of the 286/386 class support usenet links, and > >| provide "news" (Assuming large disks, etc...)? How much > >| additional system administration burden does this require? > > > >You will have to expire (read: delete) old articles or have a hugh disk. > >See the 'lists' postings for volume, but figure at least 1MB/day coming > >in. You will need special versions of news for a 286 (minor midifications). I tried running news 2.10.3 on several 286 machines here and had no end of problems. The main one was that the active file would periodically dissappear leaving the system busted and NO oactive file which could be used to replace the missing active file without too much pain. I took to keeping a copy of the active file around which could be used to replace the destroyed one, but this foobar'ed the reader. Oh well. News runs just fine on the '386 (death to the kludgey 286!! it makes my life hell). -- John M. Sully UUCP: ...!{sun | ucbvax | ihnp4}!amdcad!uport!techs Microport Systems ARPA: uport!techs@ucscc.UCSC.EDU Technical Support
dave@sdeggo.UUCP (David L. Smith) (10/24/87)
In article <171@uport.UUCP>, jmsully@uport.UUCP (John M. Sully) writes: > I tried running news 2.10.3 on several 286 machines here and had no end of > problems. The main one was that the active file would periodically > dissappear leaving the system busted and NO oactive file which could be > used to replace the missing active file without too much pain. I took to > keeping a copy of the active file around which could be used to replace > the destroyed one, but this foobar'ed the reader. Oh well. News runs > just fine on the '386 (death to the kludgey 286!! it makes my life hell). John, I've had news running for quite a few months here on sdeggo and, yes, I did run into that problem for a time. I can't remember the fix for it, but if I remember right, it had something to do with expire running at the same time as an rnews job, or something. In any case, it's not the fault of the '286. If Microport can't make Unix work properly on a '286, then you should admit so and refund our money. C'mon John, don't pass the buck to the micro-processor. If it won't run on your OS, it's your OS's fault. -- David L. Smith {sdcsvax!man,ihnp4!jack!man, hp-sdd!crash, pyramid}!sdeggo!dave man!sdeggo!dave@sdcsvax.ucsd.edu The net.goddesses made me do it!
bob@rel.eds.com (Bob Leffler) (10/26/87)
In article <171@uport.UUCP>, jmsully@uport.UUCP (John M. Sully) writes: > I tried running news 2.10.3 on several 286 machines here and had no end of > problems. The main one was that the active file would periodically > dissappear leaving the system busted and NO oactive file which could be > used to replace the missing active file without too much pain. I took to > keeping a copy of the active file around which could be used to replace > the destroyed one, but this foobar'ed the reader. Oh well. News runs > just fine on the '386 (death to the kludgey 286!! it makes my life hell). I have run news sucessfully (versions 2.10.X and 2.11.X) for several years now on a IBM PC (8086) running Xenix-86. Yes, there were a few minor changes that had to be made, but they wre fairly trivial. I also know of at least a half a dozen or so sites that are currently using your os on 286's and news is running just fine also. Granted that news runs extremely slow on these machines, but they do work. -- Bob Leffler - Electronic Data Systems, GM Truck & Bus Account bob@rel.EDS.COM or {cbosgd!edstb!edsdrd, mibte!fmsrl7}!rel!bob Opinions expressed may not be those of my employer.
chip@ateng.UUCP (Chip Salzenberg) (10/26/87)
In article <171@uport.UUCP> jmsully@uport.UUCP (John M. Sully) writes: >I tried running news 2.10.3 on several 286 machines here and had no end of >problems. The main one was that the active file would periodically >dissappear leaving the system busted and NO oactive file which could be >used to replace the missing active file without too much pain. You know, I run news on a Xenix/286 system and I haven't had this problem... >John M. Sully UUCP: ...!{sun | ucbvax | ihnp4}!amdcad!uport!techs >Microport Systems ARPA: uport!techs@ucscc.UCSC.EDU >Technical Support Oh, that explains everything. :-) -- Chip Salzenberg "chip@ateng.UUCP" or "{uunet,usfvax2}!ateng!chip" A.T. Engineering My employer's opinions are not mine, but these are. "Gentlemen, your work today has been outstanding. I intend to recommend you all for promotion -- in whatever fleet we end up serving." - JTK
plocher@puff.UUCP (10/29/87)
In article <84@ateng.UUCP> chip@ateng.UUCP (Chip Salzenberg) writes: >>I tried running news 2.10.3 on several 286 machines here and had no end of >>problems. > >You know, I run news on a Xenix/286 system and I haven't had this problem... > >>John M. Sully UUCP: ...!{sun | ucbvax | ihnp4}!amdcad!uport!techs >>Microport Systems ARPA: uport!techs@ucscc.UCSC.EDU > >Oh, that explains everything. :-) > >Chip Salzenberg "chip@ateng.UUCP" or "{uunet,usfvax2}!ateng!chip" >A.T. Engineering My employer's opinions are not mine, but these are. Even that :-) doesn't cut it here. I *tried* to bring up 2.10.2 on Xenix and had no end of problems. I had the same problems with it on Microport. 2.10.3 was better, but it took until 2.11 for news to be happy on any 286 box. The problem is and was not with Microsoft, SCO, or Microport; rather it was with code which was designed in a "all the world's a Vax" environment. So, let's not bash each other on the heads with religious fluff - life's too short to waste it on this level of yelling. -John