billb@amcad.UUCP (Bill Burton) (01/20/88)
We are considering purchase of the following system:
Hardware:
o Wyse 3216 with 4meg static column RAM
o an 80mb drive
o a Wyse WY-995 8 port card
o Cipher 60meg tape drive
o Terminals: Convergent Technologies PT-1500 in ROM emulation
mode. (already have these)
Software:
o SCO Xenix 386 w/devel set and text package
o SCO Multi-view window interface
o VP/ix for 1-2 users
o Quadratron Q-1 Word processing (required until WordPerfect for
Unix becomes availale :-) )
o PROGRESS database (required)
The machine would be used mostly for word processing by 4-6 people and
occasionally 1-2 people would run the PROGRESS database program. Two
printers and 1-2 modems will be attached.
Has anyone had experience with a similar system?
Any advice regarding alternative controller/disk combinations and
multiport boards would be helpful. Cost and serviceability are
considerations.
In the future we might add another 80mb drive, 8-port board, and 2meg to
support additional users. Will the response time be degraded
significantly?
Thanks in advance,
Bill
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Name: William D. Burton
US Mail: American Academy of Arts and Sciences
136 Irving St., Cambridge, MA 02138-1996
Audible: 1-617-576-5023
UUCP: ...!husc6!amcad!billb
ARPANET: billb%amcad.uucp@husc6.harvard.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~dyer@spdcc.COM (Steve Dyer) (01/20/88)
Well, it sounds like a very nice system. In my experience 2 or so Progress
users run fine on a 286 Xenix system (of course really heavy database crunching
might be slow), so I'd guess it would run just fine on an equivalent 386 system.
I've only run Progress 286 under Xenix 286 and 386; haven't tried Progress for
the 386 (if it's even ready yet.)
Are the Wyse comm boards "dumb" or "smart"? If you're ultimately looking
to support many users at 9600 baud, you'll want to offload as much
interrupt processing as you can.
I only have experience with Q-Office (Q+) on a supermini, the Gould 9050,
and Quadratron's reputation across the net in general. Let's just say that
the 9050 could barely support 25 Q-Office users, and it wasn't the fault
of the CPU or the OS. The product was SLOW, and would make a Cray resemble
an 8080. Now, Quadratron has been talking about various improvements, but
I have no experience with them, nor know anything about the state of the
Xenix version. Caveat wordprocessor. Now, since a 386 is close to a 9050
in raw CPU speed, perhaps it will nevertheless be able to do what you want.
--
Steve Dyer
dyer@harvard.harvard.edu
dyer@spdcc.COM aka {ihnp4,harvard,husc6,linus,ima,bbn,m2c}!spdcc!dyerbillb@amcad.UUCP (Bill Burton) (01/20/88)
In article <594@spdcc.COM> dyer@spdcc.COM (Steve Dyer) writes: >Well, it sounds like a very nice system. ... > >Are the Wyse comm boards "dumb" or "smart"? Smart. According to the sales brochure, it sports a Z80B CPU with 4 Z80B's for UARTS (?). Thoughput is claimed to be 19.2K baud through all eight channels simultaneously. If you *really* need speed it supports three channels at 76.8K baud simultaneously. One other board I have looked into based on a recommendation, is made by ARnet. Their smart version appears comparable (a little faster?) (according to the specs) to the Wyse board. It uses an 80186 CPU and has similar throughput. At list price, it will cost about twice as much as what I'll be paying locally for the Wyse board with Xenix drivers and MS-DOS based diagnostics. Even if the ARnet smart board is *much* better, than the Wyse, the Wyse smart board (discount) is similarly priced to the ARnet dumb board (list price). > >I only have experience with Q-Office (Q+) on a supermini, the Gould 9050, >and Quadratron's reputation across the net in general. Let's just say that >the 9050 could barely support 25 Q-Office users, and it wasn't the fault >of the CPU or the OS. The product was SLOW, and would make a Cray resemble >an 8080. I was wondering what the net thought of this software. The *only* reason for using it on the '386 machine is that's what we are using now on our Burroughs XE-550 (it's called CentrWORD on the XE and is slow here too) and I wanted to allow the users to transition slowly to another WP and not have to worry about converting scads of files all at once not to mention the time it would take to learn the new SP. It would also give me time to write a conversion program to go from Q-One (CentrWORD) to whatever. -Bill >-- >Steve Dyer >dyer@harvard.harvard.edu >dyer@spdcc.COM aka {ihnp4,harvard,husc6,linus,ima,bbn,m2c}!spdcc!dyer ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Name: William D. Burton US Mail: American Academy of Arts and Sciences 136 Irving St., Cambridge, MA 02138-1996 Audible: 1-617-576-5023 UUCP: ...!husc6!amcad!billb ARPANET: billb%amcad.uucp@husc6.harvard.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
marlin@thelink.UUCP (Marlin Sheffield) (01/21/88)
From article <139@amcad.UUCP>, by billb@amcad.UUCP (Bill Burton): > We are considering purchase of the following system: > > Hardware: > o Wyse 3216 with 4meg static column RAM > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Name: William D. Burton > US Mail: American Academy of Arts and Sciences Bill - Accidently I just had a look at the 16/32 bit static memory card that Wyse uses. [They sent it back to us from service- only problem was that we sent a Wyse50 Power Supply in for repair!]. The board had at least 12-15 little black wires hand soldiered to the legs of chips and running all over the board to correct routing problems. If I could wait -- I'd give them time to clean up the design and get into a more normalized production mode before buying one! -- Marlin Sheffield The right answer 52178 Fieldstone .!iuvax!ndmath!thelink!marlin at the wrong time Granger, Indiana is always a bad decision. 46530 Public Access XENIX (219) 277-7278 ----- Richard Sloma
fyl@ssc.UUCP (Phil Hughes) (01/22/88)
We have been using a 286 system running SCO XENIX and Progress for
about 2 years. We just got a 386 system for use in our training
classes. We have both the Arnet dumb and smart boards.
Here are my comments:
The configuration sounds fine. I would watch RAM usage as the new
version of Progress (4.2) is much bigger. Over 500K.
The Arnet dumb boards work fine but there have been problems with
the smart one. I think it is finally under control but wouldn't swear
to it. One of our consulting customers just bought a Wyse system
with the Wyse comm board and it all seems to be working so far.
He has only had it for a few weeks so time will tell if bugs appear.
The performance difference between the 286 and 386 is significant.
I have yet to run serious benchmarks but I expect it is 4-5 times.
I taught my last Unix for Programmers class on the 286 the first
day and the 386 for the following two days. Even though the 286
was not really slow the students were amazed with the difference.
Much of this is due to faster disk transfers. The disk controller
is not DMA so processor speed matters. Also, I was able to configure
the disk with 2:1 interleave instead of the normal 3:1 which increased
the effective transfer rate.
--
Phil Hughes, SSC, Inc. P.O. Box 55549, Seattle, WA 98155 (206)FOR-UNIX
uw-beaver!tikal!ssc!fyl or uunet!pilchuck!ssc!fyl or attmail!ssc!fylkevinr@june.cs.washington.edu (Kevin Ross) (01/22/88)
In article <122@thelink.UUCP> marlin@thelink.UUCP (Marlin Sheffield) writes: >From article <139@amcad.UUCP>, by billb@amcad.UUCP (Bill Burton): >> We are considering purchase of the following system: >> o Wyse 3216 with 4meg static column RAM > >Bill - > Accidently I just had a look at the 16/32 bit static memory >card that Wyse uses. ..... > The board had at least 12-15 little black wires hand soldiered to the >legs of chips and running all over the board to correct routing problems. >If I could wait -- I'd give them time to clean up the design and get into >a more normalized production mode before buying one! I also have a WYSE 386, and noticed that the memory board was constructed in an obvious bug fix. We also had problems getting the board to accept the full 2 megs that it was supposed to. However, all it took was one phone call to WYSE, and they sent out the revised card federal express, and we are happy as can be. No computer company is immune to the wirewrap fixes. Usually, they are fairly good about replacing these boards, if necessary. All things considered, the wyse 386 is a very nice machine. The one we have has a 40 meg CDC drive, 2 megs of memory, and a computone 8 port serial board. Runs Xenix 2.2 (eventually gets a 386 upgrade). I have had as many as 8 people using the machine, and it handles them very gracefully (slower, but not too bad). I would reccomend the machine. Kevin Ross kevinr@june.cs.washington.edu ...uw-beaver!kevinr@june
sablone@dalcsug.UUCP (Aurelio Sablone) (01/29/88)
Hello, I would appreciate any information anyone could give me on purchasing an intel 80386 based system running xenix386 or unix SVR3. The system will have to support between 6-10 users. A typical configuration would have about 5Megs ram, and 100M disk space. What criteria should be used when deciding on what system to get. I have only seen a brouchure on the ast premium386. Cost would be around $10,000 ($7,500 U.S.). Eventually, the system would be further upgraded: software/memory/disk. Any information would be appreciated. :w q
james@bigtex.uu.net (James Van Artsdalen) (01/31/88)
There have been several queries as to what 386 hardware to use. One system I like, and bought, is the PC's Ltd. 386/16. This is a 16MHz 80386 system with no wait states. Note I mean *no* wait states: it uses purely static RAM with no memory refresh to achieve *the* fastest processor times of any 16MHz machine. This isn't one of those companies that use interleaved memory, caches, or other hand waving to fraudulently claim zero wait states. Some of the 16MHz caching systems might come close, but the 386/16 is faster. The machine comes in a standard chassis with one parrellel and two serial ports. A 1.2M floppy disk drive, WD1003 floppy/hard disk controller and 1MHz of RAM round out the minimum configuration, which sells for $3099. There are five 16 bit slots and two 8 bit slots. There are eight cut-outs on the back pannel, as the system RAM board takes up the width of a normal card within the system, and the cut-out behind it is taken by the serial/ parrellel card to get all of the connectors out. The RAM card holds 6meg of the static RAM. More can be added using regular DRAM boards on the system bus: the DRAM is accessed at 8MHz though, and must have the refresh turned on. I bought my system as the base unit but with 1 extra megabyte of RAM, and used a spare EGA board and hard disk drive to get it going. I have since added two more megabytes (unix is a RAM hog). A realistic monochrome system certainly runs under $4000 with 1meg of RAM and a fair hard disk. The system does not come with DOS. It does have the setup program in ROM. This is the easiest setup program to use I've seen: it is entirely menu drive in the style of Lotus 1-2-3. You don't need the dreaded IBM AT diagnostics disk. The hard disk low-level format is not in ROM (where a stray crashed program could cause real trouble): it comes on a floppy disk if you get a hard disk. Any Western Digital lowform program should work as it is a standard WD1003/WA2 board. The system comes with a "Smart Vu" pannel (however they spell it). This is a four segment alphanumeric LED that is used to print error messages during POST testing and let you know what the disk drive is doing one the system is running. The POST messages are scrolled English-text messages that are easily read: you can use the machine as a file server without a video board if desired (a setup option tells the BIOS to boot even if the keyboard and video board aren't present). There is the standard disk access and power LEDs, and the standard useless key lock. The big deal in my opinion is the one year service contract that comes free with the system. If it breaks, someone from Honeywell/Bull comes to your site the next day and fixes it. This even means things like BIOS replacements. PC's Ltd has made tremendous strides in compatibility and quality since this program started: not even IBM or Compaq offer this kind of warranty. In addition there is a 30 day money-back guarantee I believe. The drawbacks I see are mainly expensive RAM and potential coming changes. RAM costs $500/megabyte. This isn't so bad up to three or four megabytes, as most other systems require you buy another board at some point, but still... Secondly, I noticed that PC's Ltd. recently changed their 286 machine quite a bit. This could presage changes to the 386/16 in the future: I certainly hope not. The two changes that caught my eye were that (1) they are now using the Phoenix BIOS, not the in-house one and (2) the Smart-Vu is gone. As for #1, Phoenix isn't that great, and the in-house BIOS was much better. Given the serious problems Phoenix has (Oracle for instance), I cannot imagine why this change was made. I'm certain they made Phoenix fix this particular bug (PC's Ltd does *NOT* want to pay Honeywell to come replace your BIOS for you), but nonetheless it was a step backwards, and they knew it. Who knows what happened to the setup program. For #2, the Smart-Vu is really useful when you've swapping cards around: you can always catch error messages no matter what the video monitor is doing. This probably fell to the onslaught of accountants. The 386/16 has bigger margins, but I still wonder if the clock isn't ticking for the Smart-Vu. PC's Ltd. sells only directly. You call them to place the order, and the machine is then built to spec. in the factory, tested for four hours (unless it's assembled too late in the day, in which case it runs overnight), and shipped directly to you. There are 800 numbers for sales, customer service, technical service, and returns (everything as far as I know). They were extremely well organized when I called (unlike in years past). I'm sure I left out something someone wants to know: feel free to mail queries. -- James R. Van Artsdalen ...!uunet!utastro!bigtex!james "Live Free or Die" Work: 512-328-0282 Home: 323-2675; 110 Wild Basin Rd. Ste #230, Austin TX 78746
wes@obie.UUCP (Barnacle Wes) (02/08/88)
In article <768@bigtex.uu.net>, james@bigtex.uu.net (James Van Artsdalen) writes: > The drawbacks I see are mainly expensive RAM and potential coming changes. > RAM costs $500/megabyte. This isn't so bad up to three or four megabytes, > as most other systems require you buy another board at some point, but still.. Remember that Unix systems are memory hogs. I have been running my 286 system with MicroPort System V/AT for over a year now, the system was unacceptably slow until I upped the memory from 1 meg to 3 meg. Now that I have Usenet News running background jobs almost continually :-) I am looking at sticking another 3 meg in the system, for a total of 6. This will, of course, require re-building the disk to create a larger swap partition. A good guideline that has been suggested in the BIX microport conferences is 2 meg for the system, and 1 meg per user. If you are planning on running Usenet News, add another 1 meg for 'compress'. This will keep your system from having to swap too much, and believe me, no matter how fast your 386 is, an ST506 disk is going to make the system sluggish if you spend a lot of time swapping/paging. This would require 4 meg for a (mostly) single-user system with a news feed, and that's the MINIMUM I would recommend. Of course, you may be more willing than I to wait for the computer to catch up to you. Static-RAM systems are the fastest 386 boxes out right now, but if you don't ABSOLUTELY need that speed, you might want to look at one of the static-RAM cache systems, the manufacturers claim an 80% hit rate, which gives you 80% zero wait-states, and 20% 3 wait-states. A reasonable trade-off for $125/meg RAM, especially when you are buying 5-6 megs! I have heard really good things about PC's Ltd. I have also had good experiences with AST. I you want to get a 'name brand', buy Unisys. My Sperry PC/IT has been flawless, and even lived through a power spike that Killed my Oki laserprinter (to the tune of $300). As far as the O.S. goes, why not buy REAL Unix from MicroPort (or perhaps Interactive Systems) and save yourself a grundle of money? Unless you have a specific application that runs on Xenix and not System V, get System V. -- /\ - " Against Stupidity, - {backbones}! /\/\ . /\ - The Gods Themselves - utah-cs!utah-gr! / \/ \/\/ \ - Contend in Vain." - uplherc!sp7040! / U i n T e c h \ - Isaac Asimov - obie!wes
davidsen@steinmetz.steinmetz.UUCP (William E. Davidsen Jr) (02/10/88)
In article <39@obie.UUCP> wes@obie.UUCP (Barnacle Wes) writes: | [ Q: should I buy a Wyse 386 and Xenix? ] | I have heard really good things about PC's Ltd. I have also had good | experiences with AST. I you want to get a 'name brand', buy Unisys. | My Sperry PC/IT has been flawless, and even lived through a power | spike that Killed my Oki laserprinter (to the tune of $300). As far | as the O.S. goes, why not buy REAL Unix from MicroPort (or perhaps | Interactive Systems) and save yourself a grundle of money? Unless you | have a specific application that runs on Xenix and not System V, get | System V. I would just add that there have been a number of people who have had problems with the Microport serial drivers, MP doesn't cross compile for any other system, and that Bell Tech sells SysV and C for $400. -- bill davidsen (wedu@ge-crd.arpa) {uunet | philabs | seismo}!steinmetz!crdos1!davidsen "Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -me