thw9759@ultb.UUCP (T.H. White) (04/13/89)
Which is better, an AT&T 3B1 or a PC/AT clone? - a 3B1 is a real 32 bit machine has demand paging capability - a 3B1 runs UNIX 5.2 (a real unix) which runs GNU - a 3B1 costs a lot to repair and often times you can't repair - an AT runs Xenix, DOS, you name it, it runs it. - an AT is a 16 bit machine with no demand paging capability - can fix any part in an AT for around $200 or less What other differences are there? Which is better???
terry@eecea.eece.ksu.edu (Terry Hull) (04/16/89)
In article <670@ultb.UUCP> thw9759@ultb.UUCP (T.H. White) writes: > >Which is better, an AT&T 3B1 or a PC/AT clone? The problem with the 3B1 is it will never get new software. AT&T is not going to put SysV R3.2 or streams on it. It will also not get SysV R4.0. My money is on an AT bus '386 machine. They are not that much more expensive than '286 based ATs, are MUCH faster, and will run programs that demand a large address space. The '386s will also get SysV R4.0 next year. If I had to choose between the 3B1 or a '286 machine, I think I'd take the 3B1, just because of the unsegmented architecture. -- Terry Hull Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, Kansas State University Work: terry@eecea.eece.ksu.edu, rutgers!ksuvax1!eecea!terry Play: tah386!terry@eecea.eece.ksu.edu, rutgers!ksuvax1!eecea!tah386!terry
steve@nuchat.UUCP (Steve Nuchia) (04/17/89)
In article <670@ultb.UUCP> thw9759@ultb.UUCP (T.H. White) writes: >Which is better, an AT&T 3B1 or a PC/AT clone? >- a 3B1 runs UNIX 5.2 (a real unix) which runs GNU I'm not a 3b1 user but I have friends who are ... Unless we all missed something it doesn't run V.2, it runs V.0 with maybe a little of V.1 mixed in. Pretty scrummy environment. Beats dealing with an intel chip, but just barely. -- Steve Nuchia South Coast Computing Services uunet!nuchat!steve POB 890952 Houston, Texas 77289 (713) 964 2462 Consultation & Systems, Support for PD Software.
smcroft@sactoh0.UUCP (Steve M. Croft) (04/17/89)
In article <670@ultb.UUCP>, thw9759@ultb.UUCP (T.H. White) writes: > > Which is better, an AT&T 3B1 or a PC/AT clone? > > - a 3B1 is a real 32 bit machine has demand paging capability The 3B1 contains a 68010 which has a 16-bit data bus... thought I'd mention that in case anyone thought the 3B1 was a full 32-bit machine... -- ############################################################### # steve "whadda guy" croft # # ...!pacbell!sactoh0!smcroft || ...csusac!athena!crofts # ###############################################################
larry@macom1.UUCP (Larry Taborek) (04/17/89)
From article <670@ultb.UUCP>, by thw9759@ultb.UUCP (T.H. White): > > Which is better, an AT&T 3B1 or a PC/AT clone? > > - a 3B1 is a real 32 bit machine has demand paging capability > - a 3B1 runs UNIX 5.2 (a real unix) which runs GNU > - a 3B1 costs a lot to repair and often times you can't repair > - an AT runs Xenix, DOS, you name it, it runs it. > - an AT is a 16 bit machine with no demand paging capability > - can fix any part in an AT for around $200 or less > > > What other differences are there? Which is better??? I'd take the PC/AT clone. Today, PC/AT clones can include 386 machines. With 386 PC's, you get a 3B1's 32 bit, you can get 5.2 with demand paging (again a real unix), AND an unsegmented mmachine. In short, if you were to go with a 386PC you would have all of the advantages above of a PC and all of the advantages that you give to the 3B1. I have been looking through the AIM Benchmark Reports and they rate a AT&T 3B2/400 (considerably more powerfull then the 3B1) at 76% of a VAX 780, and able to run 9 users. They in turn rate a Compaq DP 386 at 139% of a VAX 780, and able to run 16 users. It's MY belief that a 386 machine is a much better buy then a 3B1, and if you pick up a magazine like Computer-Shopper you can probably get a 16MZ PC/AT/386 clone for about $1000.00. By the way the Compaq DP rated above was their 160MZ model. Their 20MZ model was even more impressive. -- Larry Taborek ..!uunet!grebyn!macom1!larry Centel Federal Systems larry@macom1.UUCP 11400 Commerce Park Drive Reston, VA 22091-1506 703-758-7000
dold@mitisft.Convergent.COM (Clarence Dold) (04/18/89)
in article <4825@macom1.UUCP>, larry@macom1.UUCP (Larry Taborek) says: >> Which is better, an AT&T 3B1 or a PC/AT clone? > I'd take the PC/AT clone. Today, PC/AT clones can include 386 > machines. With 386 PC's, you get a 3B1's 32 bit, you can get Certainly, comparing a circa 1984 68010 based machine against a 386 clone is at best impolite. > I have been looking through the AIM Benchmark Reports and they > rate a AT&T 3B2/400 (considerably more powerfull then the 3B1) at > 76% of a VAX 780, and able to run 9 users. They in turn rate a > probably get a 16MZ PC/AT/386 clone for about $1000.00. By the I recall that the 3B1 was rated at .7 VAX 750. The truth of the matter is that it comes down to money. If it is someone else's money, or if you have to justify it on a purely performance standpoint, buy the PC! The 3B1 will not be as fast, nor as software compatible, as the PC (Speaking binarily. Source compatability is good on the 3B1). > It's MY belief that a 386 machine is a much better buy then a > 3B1, and if you pick up a magazine like Computer-Shopper you can > probably get a 16MZ PC/AT/386 clone for about $1000.00. By the $1000 for a 386 AT? Sure buddy. The 3B1 will come with ~1Meg of RAM, a bit-mapped graphics monitor, a 1200 baud autodial modem, ~20 Meg of disk, and ALL OF THE SOFTWARE!!!!!!!!!!! You'll pay more than the cost of the 3B1 for a Development set of 386 UNIX on the PC clone. Again, It's a matter of $. I would rather have the PC. -- --- Clarence A Dold - dold@tsmiti.Convergent.COM (408) 434-5293 ...pyramid!ctnews!tsmiti!dold P.O.Box 6685, San Jose, CA 95150-6685 MS#10-007
thw9759@ultb.UUCP (T.H. White) (04/20/89)
Thank for the responses. Yes, cost is an important factor. I would like to just go out and purchase an AT clone and have DOS and XENIX running it. I don't like XENIX too much mainly because it seems like a wimpy OS but I am sure that is due to the fact that the hardware (AT) has a very hard time supporting it. You can only have 64K address segments unless you screw around with things underneath but then things don't always work quite right. Thre is no demand paging which is a big bummmer. Either the program you are running is in memory (all of it) or else it is all on the disk and no in between. That means that no program can be longer than 640K minus the size of XENIX. That is not very big! Unless you can use the extended memory for addressing which I don't believe is possible. I am very afraid to go out any buy a used 3B1 because I am afraid something will go wrong with it and I cannot afford to buy an additional 3B1 for parts, or buy an expensive service contract, or afford to get it repaired very many times. Steve @nuchat in Houston writes: A friend has a 3B1 which is running V0 or V1 or something like that. Well I have seen 3B1's in action and they were running AT&T UNIX 5.2, so.... Also the 3B1 does in fact have a 16bit data bus but uses two fetches to run at a 32bit addressing mode. It is not limited to 64K segments or any of that crap that the AT is. There is a big difference here between an AT 16 bits and a 3B1 which is 32 bits in actuality. And the best of all, larry at grebyn!macom1 writes: You can buy a 386 clone for $1000! Where??? Not in computer shopper. Not anywhere except maybe in the streets of NYC hot! You could probably get a motherboard for that price with no memory, whoppie... Noww buy everything else like 2meg of memory, a 40+meg HD, monitor, I/O ports, modem, and a UNIX. Now you are over $5000! probably. No thanks. Good try though. You know I have been reading Computer Shopper for the last year and I have found out something very interesting: They always have the virtually the same ads every month! Sure one ad says: get an AT motherboard for $200 Yeah, if you buy 10 of them. What the hell am I going to do with 10 of them? Another says: get a complete system for $900 or something like that. Yeah all except the monitor, modem, memory, old motherboards (made 5 years ago or so, still have to buy DOS or whatever, probably have to buy some cable somewhere inside that they make exclusively that sells for $50 or something, you know how it is. YES, some of the companies are ok. I just had a friend that purchased a complete 286 system from Tri-Star and was very good (so far). I think if I do buy one, it will be from there because I know it is good. A couple of more things that torque me off about those mail-order places: Sure they give you an 800 number to call and another number that is not toll free for information. Well, screw them. I will call the 800 number anyways, and well if I can't get information, I go elsewhere. I would suggest other people to do the same. And if you do order from a company, you better sure as hell hope you got what you want because you CAN'T return it! Sure you get 30 days or 15 days or whatever. Whooptie doo. By the time UPS brings it (they deliver 3 times and then send back if you aren't home) to your home, I don't sit around waiting all day for the local UPS man to come so te odds are that it will be the 2nd or 3rd try for them to get it to me and that is usually 1 to 1-1/2 weeks after I placed the order. Sure I can federal express for some ungodly amount. And then you have to take time to set it all up (read the Japanese manuals an all) and then finally after figuring out something that they failed to tell you about, test the thing and find that it doesn't work like you wanted. By this time you have had the machine say for 3 or 4 days. Now you pack it back up and take it back to your local neighborhood UPS place and pay mega$$ to have it sent back. If you happen to get it back by the time the 30days is up you are lucky and still have to pay that 15% restocking fee (15% of $1800) is about $270!!!! Well, there you have it! Well I gotta go now, the wife calls... CRASH PS: You can express your feelings about this anytime.
daveb@laidbak.UUCP (Dave Burton) (04/22/89)
In article <4833@macom1.UUCP> larry@macom1.UUCP (Larry Taborek) writes: |I this |months computer shopper (May 1989) the following adds appear: | |(I only scanned it quickly for these prices) |Page 473, MICA System 386 25MHz, $1525. |Page 455, Competitive System 386 16MHz, $1177. ^^^^^^ caveat emptor |Page 379, Pacer 386 Motherboard, 20MHz, $859. |Page 259, CDS Ad, X386 Motherboard, 16MHz, $795 (several others | under $1000) |Page 25, Top Gun 386 Tower System, 33MHz, $1795. | |Add a 40MB disk & controller, ENIX, and add on about $600 to the |systems above and you have a UNIX computer. For the Competitive |that would be around $1800. A ways from $1000, to be sure, but ^^^^ nope. see below. |you could also put one together for less, or pick up a used one. ^^^^^^^^ doubtful. The "Competitive" system will go for a *bit* more than the $1800 you suggest. A quick look at the add shows the system is not complete. You need to buy the "Enhanced 386" to get such optional features as floppy disk drives, hard/floppy controllers, video card (no monitor mentioned!), printer port, and keyboard. This runs $1769.00. The "Professional 386" @ $2143.00 gives you: Licensed U.S.A BIOS, A Seagate 40mb (sic) hard drive, plus some other motherboard features (like coprocessor support, shadow RAM, ...). Then (for the Professional), you add: 100.00 Monochrome monitor (they didn't say you got one) 399.00 Enix (that's what I just paid) comp.unix.xenix folk: (see, relevance :-) ~1300.00 for the 'complete' Xenix/386 and you have a system price of ~2650.00 ($3550 with Xenix), less shipping & handling, VISA|Mastercard surcharges, etc. This is a far cry from $1000, or $1800. Oh, yeah, don't forget to buy another megabyte of RAM, as ENIX, Xenix, UNIX won't run with just 1 Meg - especially with shadow RAM. Depending upon the type of RAM needed, that's anywhere from $300-$500. The 3b1's are complete (with operating system) at <$1000 locally. If memory serves, it's $795. This includes a bit mapped display, mouse, 40meg hard drive, 360k floppy, 1 meg ram, UNIX "3.51" (V.2). For an additional $350 (I think), you can get the UNIX Software Development System. Initial investment-wise, the 3b1 is vastly superior to a 386/AT. And if you're just interested in getting into UNIX for a minimum cost, this is a deal. More relevence for comp.unix.xenix: I bought the Top Gun system mentioned (for $1895), added one meg of RAM ($400) and a 71MB hard drive ($550). My total cost was ~2900 (after shipping & handling charges). It runs Xenix 386 v2.3 just fine. This price is close to as low as you can go (but it doesn't include the *IX). -- Dave Burton | ``/* You are not expected to understand this. */'' {spl1,sun}!laidbak!daveb| (312) 505-9100 x325 | Disclaimer: I channel only for myself.
jim@applix.UUCP (Jim Morton) (04/23/89)
In article <621@mitisft.Convergent.COM>, dold@mitisft.Convergent.COM writes: > >> Which is better, an AT&T 3B1 or a PC/AT clone? > > Again, It's a matter of $. I would rather have the PC. > > Clarence A Dold - dold@tsmiti.Convergent.COM (408) 434-5293 ^^^^^^^^^^ This coming from someone at the company that OEM'd the 3B1? Wow, I guess I'd get the PC! -- Jim Morton, APPLiX Inc., Westboro, MA UUCP: ...harvard!m2c!applix!jim jim@applix.m2c.org
dold@mitisft.Convergent.COM (Clarence Dold) (04/25/89)
in article <959@applix.UUCP:, jim@applix.UUCP (Jim Morton) says: : : In article <621@mitisft.Convergent.COM>, dold@mitisft.Convergent.COM writes: :> >> Which is better, an AT&T 3B1 or a PC/AT clone? :> :> Again, It's a matter of $. I would rather have the PC. :> :> Clarence A Dold - dold@tsmiti.Convergent.COM (408) 434-5293 : ^^^^^^^^^^ : This coming from someone at the company that OEM'd the 3B1? : Wow, I guess I'd get the PC! : -- : Jim Morton, APPLiX Inc., Westboro, MA : UUCP: ...harvard!m2c!applix!jim : jim@applix.m2c.org Should I have put the ;-) in my posting? The employee price on the 3B1 never got below $3800. -- --- Clarence A Dold - dold@tsmiti.Convergent.COM (408) 434-5293 ...pyramid!ctnews!tsmiti!dold P.O.Box 6685, San Jose, CA 95150-6685 MS#10-007