edjames@ic.Berkeley.EDU (Ed James) (12/27/86)
Anyone out there have any information on the current state of technology of flat displays? I noticed there are some portable computers on the market using LCD's in the range of 480x128 pixels (80 cols & 16 lines w/ a 6x8 font). How close are we to a real sized display (~1024x1024)? I'd like to see a portable clipboard-sized computer with lots-o-memory. Something that a student could type class notes on and download to a larger base machine later. No disk/tape drives required, just a serial interface or maybe a modem, a pointing device and a low profile keyboard. Think such a thing has marketing possibilities? --ed edjames@ic.berkeley.edu ucbvax!edjames
bobmon@iuvax.UUCP (01/01/87)
In article <1191@ucbcad.berkeley.edu> edjames@ic.berkeley.edu (Ed James) writes: >market using LCD's in the range of 480x128 pixels (80 cols & 16 lines >w/ a 6x8 font). How close are we to a real sized display (~1024x1024)? > >I'd like to see a portable clipboard-sized computer with >lots-o-memory. [...] A recent machine, the Z-181, offers 80x25 characters on a 640x200 pixel LCD screen (I think that's the standard MS-DOS CGA display resolution). The machine is 13.4"x11.6"x3.1" which is clipboard-sized if you believe in deep-dish clipboards (:-) It also gives you 640K of memory. Now, what I want is the $79.95 sell-em-in-shrinkwrap marketing...
bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) (01/09/87)
In article <1191@ucbcad.berkeley.edu> edjames@ic.berkeley.edu (Ed James) writes: >Anyone out there have any information on the current state of technology >of flat displays? I noticed there are some portable computers on the >market using LCD's in the range of 480x128 pixels (80 cols & 16 lines >w/ a 6x8 font). How close are we to a real sized display (~1024x1024)? > >I'd like to see a portable clipboard-sized computer with >lots-o-memory. Something that a student could type class notes on and >download to a larger base machine later. No disk/tape drives required, >just a serial interface or maybe a modem, a pointing device and a >low profile keyboard. > >Think such a thing has marketing possibilities? --ed > edjames@ic.berkeley.edu > ucbvax!edjames Make it with a touch sensitive screen, Throw away the keyboard and the pointer (mouse), and use a stick for making notes on the screen. A handwriting analyser would be nice, to clean up my writing and reduce storage needs, but a bit beyond current software. All the advantages of a real bit of paper plus the computer power of one of todays bit-mapped workstations with a mouse. It gives a whole new meaning to writing a program. Bob. ERCC.
henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (01/15/87)
> Make it with a touch sensitive screen, Throw away the > keyboard and the pointer (mouse), and use a stick for making > notes on the screen. Not if you're going to be entering substantial amounts of text. Typing is much faster than handwriting because it uses simpler motions and gets the fingers going in parallel to some degree. It's also a lot easier on the muscles for prolonged work -- remember that you can't rest your fingers on a touch-sensitive screen! (This is also a problem for prolonged use of stick-like pointers even in the absence of text entry.) Don't forget a gallon drum of Windex for cleaning the touch-sensitive screen, by the way. They pick up fingerprints fast. > A handwriting analyser would be nice, to clean up my writing > and reduce storage needs, but a bit beyond current software. Actually feasible, I believe, given that it can watch the character being drawn. The sequence and direction of the strokes adds a lot of useful information. Recognizing "pre-printed" handwriting is hard, but I recall it being manageable with the extra information. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!henry
edjames@ic.Berkeley.EDU (Ed James) (01/15/87)
In article <191@its63b.ed.ac.uk> bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Bob Gray) writes: >Make it with a touch sensitive screen, Throw away the >keyboard and the pointer (mouse), and use a stick for making >notes on the screen. > >A handwriting analyser would be nice, to clean up my writing >and reduce storage needs, but a bit beyond current software. > >All the advantages of a real bit of paper plus the computer >power of one of todays bit-mapped workstations with a mouse. >It gives a whole new meaning to writing a program. > Bob. > ERCC. Ug! Touch sensitive screens? I have enough trouble keeping *other* people's grubby finger prints off my screen. :-) I can type much faster than I can write. My hand gets stiff after an hour of writing, but this rarely happens when I type. As for writing on a screen, did you every use a ball point pen on a solid surface? Paper 'gives', a screen surfaces doesn't. The writing surface would have to be slightly soft, but this would probably shorten it's useful life greatly. It's a really fun idea, and potentially incredibly useful. I am even beginning to believe it's within current technology to produce one that was fairly cheap (~$1K). So who's gonna build it? :-) --ed
faustus@ucbcad.berkeley.edu (Wayne A. Christopher) (01/15/87)
In article <191@its63b.ed.ac.uk>, bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (ERCF08 Bob Gray) writes: > Make it with a touch sensitive screen, Throw away the > keyboard and the pointer (mouse), and use a stick for making > notes on the screen. I find that I can type more easily and faster than I can write, so this wouldn't be much of an improvement... Although for some tasks, like correcting text, probably it would be nice. Wayne
cmcmanis@sun.uucp (Chuck McManis) (01/15/87)
At Wescon last year Polaroid was showing a flexible LCD that was made out
of some sort of plastic. The LCD was 6 or 8" wide and as long as you
wanted it. Conductors ran along the top and side. They were trying to
sell "experimenter" packs with a 6" square piece I believe. They suggested
using it as the cover to one of these membrane keyboard bases and then
programming the "keytops" as required. At the time it was not to feasible
to make a portable version but now that Hitachi is sampling CMOS
LCD controller chips it might be. Running one of the new 32 bitmachines
a slow speed (8Mhz) will sufficiently reduce it's power requirements
that you could make it battery powered. Resolution of the LCD was
10 mil square pixels. Thus an 8 X 10 sheet would have a resolution of
800 X 1000 pixels, or 100 dpi. Thats 100000 bytes for the display memory
possibly another 100000 for off screen bitmaps. So 256K of display memory
should be acceptable. Probably 1 or 2 Meg of Cmos main memory. With
battery backup to maintain data integrity. All in an 8.5 X 11 X 1 inch
case. It would be killer.
--Chuck
--
--Chuck McManis
uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com
These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.ronc@cerebus.UUCP (sysadm) (01/16/87)
In article <191@its63b.ed.ac.uk> bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Bob Gray) writes: >Make it with a touch sensitive screen, Throw away the >keyboard and the pointer (mouse), and use a stick for making >notes on the screen. [...] > >All the advantages of a real bit of paper plus the computer >power of one of todays bit-mapped workstations with a mouse. >It gives a whole new meaning to writing a program. > Bob. Ickkk! I have a small problem with this. I can not write. I can at best print slowly and painfully. I got straight F's in penmanship all throughout school. However, (probably as compensation) I can type at peaks of 120 WPM on a good keyboard. The very idea of having to scrawl on a calculator with a stick as an entry method fills me with the creeping horrors. How about voice entry? A(n) (infrared remote?) throat mike so you could subvocalize the commands? Voice would be faster than typing, and certainly faster than writing(!). Gawd, let's stick to menu selections for touch sensitive screens. Ron -- Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!cerebus!ronc -or- ihnp4!pesnta!fai!cerebus!ronc "Down, boy" "Woof"
sewilco@mecc.UUCP (01/16/87)
Don't forget a layer of "solar cells" under the LCD display to help charge the
batteries...
--
Scot E. Wilcoxon Minn Ed Comp Corp {quest,dayton,meccts}!mecc!sewilco
(612)481-3507 sewilco@MECC.COM ihnp4!meccts!mecc!sewilco
National Enquirer seers: 4 Reality: 360ralphw@ius2.cs.cmu.edu.UUCP (01/16/87)
In article <38@cerebus.UUCP> ronc@cerebus.UUCP (sysadm) writes: >In article <191@its63b.ed.ac.uk> bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Bob Gray) writes: >>Make it with a touch sensitive screen, Throw away the >>keyboard and the pointer (mouse)... ... >Ickkk! I have a small problem with this. I can not write. >I can at best print slowly and painfully. I got straight F's >in penmanship all throughout school. However, (probably as >compensation) I can type at peaks of 120 WPM on a good keyboard. How about adding a connector for a optional keyboard and pointing device on the side of the machine? Mechanical support for attaching it (directly or with a detached cable) would be straightforward. It should be easy to add a keyboard and {mouse,joystick,other device} to this system for 'base operation' (like a desk). +-----------+ |touch-sens | |LCD | +-----------+ ^ ^ +-----------+ | kbd |------('auxiliary' pointing device) +-----------+ -- - Ralph W. Hyre, Jr. Internet: ralphw@ius2.cs.cmu.edu Phone: (412) 268-2847 [CMU-BUGS], 268-3275 Amateur Radio: KA3PLY temporary KT (c/o W3VC, CMU Radio Club, Pittsburgh, PA)
edjames@ic.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (01/17/87)
Well, I like this conversation so far!
So, what kind of people would be the market target for this compact
product? As a student, I think it could be potentially a great
seller, considering that a lot of colleges are forcing computers
onto their students ("buy a PC before you start classes"). Once
the computer illiterate are informed how useful computers are, they
just might latch onto them.
Of course, with the right software, every executive would want one.
They bought all those pocket computer/calenders didn't they? :-)
About keyboards: Membrane keyboards are no good. They offer no
tactile feedback. How about a very flat keyboard with, say, 1/8"
high keys and a like press-distance? Does anyone have any experience
with this sort of thing? --edlum@osupyr.UUCP (01/17/87)
In article <1223@ucbcad.berkeley.edu> edjames@ic.Berkeley.EDU (Ed James) writes: >In article <191@its63b.ed.ac.uk> bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Bob Gray) writes: >>Make it with a touch sensitive screen, throw away the keyboard and >>the pointer (mouse), and use a stick for making notes on the screen. > >[D]id you ever use a ball point pen on a solid surface? Paper 'gives', but >screen surfaces don't. The writing surface would have to be slightly soft, >but this would probably shorten it's useful life greatly. I think that a replacable flexible stylus (like a fiber tip pen) would be a better idea than a soft surface. You could get the "give" feedback, but use a more durable and probably less expensive hard surface. However, I also type much faster and easier than I write. Lum Johnson lum@ohio-state.arpa ..!cbosgd!osu-eddie!lum
sjrapaport@watcgl.UUCP (01/18/87)
While we're building our dream laptop, let's not forget voice input for those who prefer a more compact interface. (Trained to accept whispers, too, so they can be used in class. Or meetings) And a computer is just a toy until it can talk to a mainframe. A phone jack-style interface with lots of wall jacks in classrooms or offices might be appropriate. -steve Disclaimer: All these postings are my own opinions, and aren't necessarily within light years of the views of my University. My Ignorance, too, is my own.
ewiles@netxcom.UUCP (Edwin Wiles) (01/21/87)
In article <1052@ius2.cs.cmu.edu> ralphw@ius2.cs.cmu.edu (Ralph Hyre) writes: >In article <38@cerebus.UUCP> ronc@cerebus.UUCP (sysadm) writes: >>In article <191@its63b.ed.ac.uk> bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Bob Gray) writes: >>>Make it with a touch sensitive screen, Throw away the >>>keyboard and the pointer (mouse)... >... >>Ickkk! I have a small problem with this. I can not write. >>I can at best print slowly and painfully. >... >How about adding a connector for a optional keyboard and pointing device >on the side of the machine? Mechanical support for attaching it (directly >or with a detached cable) would be straightforward. ... No, don't add a keyboard on the end! It was designed with the idea in mind that it would be about the size of a notebook. If you add an auxiliary keyboard you defeat the design intent. If you need a keyboard, then use the touch sensitive screen to create one. I seem to remember that with the resolution given in the original design, and with the room available on the surface of the screen, you could have a full 80x24 character screen, and still have enough room for a keypad. The key layout would be entirely programable, since it is displayed on the screen! This would allow everyone to customize the keypad into a form that they want, instead of being stuck with whatever the manufacturer wanted to give them. Keep the idea of an 'electric pencil', since it is rather difficult to type graphics into the screen. This would allow you to type or write notes, since you have either form of data entry, and would keep the capability to sketch all those pretty pictures that professors are so fond of drawing! What do you think? -- Edwin Wiles seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles Net Express, Inc. 1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300 Vienna, VA 22180
carl@harlie.UUCP (01/24/87)
>>>>Make it with a touch sensitive screen, Throw away the >>>>keyboard and the pointer (mouse)... >>>Ickkk! I have a small problem with this. I can not write. >>>I can at best print slowly and painfully. I can print fast, but it's disgustingly messy. I prefer to turn in assignments that have been printed out and get good grades for being so nice to a teacher's fading eyesight... >>How about adding a connector for a optional keyboard and pointing device >>on the side of the machine? Mechanical support for attaching it (directly >>or with a detached cable) would be straightforward. > No, don't add a keyboard on the end! It was designed with the idea in mind > that it would be about the size of a notebook. If you add an auxiliary > keyboard you defeat the design intent. Having a decent keyboard about half the size of a notebook would be nice, on a detached cord. I personally can't stand small keys or ones that don't travel far. (My favourite keyboard is the one on the IBM PC/AT, with a good solid click sensation every time you hit a key.) > If you need a keyboard, then use the touch sensitive screen to create one. Have you considered the FEEL of such a keyboard? If you've ever used an Atari 400, you'd reconsider. (If you've used a Sun or a standard IBM PC, even...) > Keep the idea of an 'electric pencil', since it is rather difficult to type > graphics into the screen. This would be helpful for putting diagrams down, especially when someone is illustrating sets or sketching something that you would put into paper notes. The notion of a little flat display about the size of the average clipboard with an "electric pencil" to select things with (instead of a mouse), and a detachable keyboard that would either clip on the back or perhaps slide into place in a specially designed binder with one side for the display and one for the keyboard (and mebbe a 3.5" hard drive on board?) would be fantastic for a student (who could afford it). Any manufacturers want to try for creating something? Carl -- /--------------------------------v-------------------------------------------\ | Carl Greenberg | "I have a very firm grasp on reality! I | | Lunatic Laboratories Unlimited | can reach out and strangle it any time!" | | "I always have fun because I'm | UUCP: -- Me | | out of my mind." -- Zippy | {qantel,ihnp4,lll-crg}!ptsfa!harlie!carl | \--------------------------------^-------------------------------------------/
edjames@ic.Berkeley.EDU (Ed James) (01/24/87)
In article <275@netxcom.UUCP> ewiles@netxcom.UUCP (Edwin Wiles) writes: >... >No, don't add a keyboard on the end! It was designed with the idea in mind >that it would be about the size of a notebook. If you add an auxiliary >keyboard you defeat the design intent. No, I think the design is to make a portable computer. I could not use it if it didn't have a reasonable keyboard. What we need is a very flat keyboard. >If you need a keyboard, then use the touch sensitive screen to create one. Ooo ick! No user feedback! I hate membrane keyboards, and this would be about equivalent. >I seem to remember that with the resolution given in the original design, and >with the room available on the surface of the screen, you could have a full >80x24 character screen, and still have enough room for a keypad. The key Hey, I'm working on a sun workstation right now running X windows. I have 6 80x24 text windows (some overlapping) and 2 80x66 text windows for active use (I'm typing in one now). I figure we can get a display about 11x8.5 (a sideways piece of paper) with an LC display with ~80 pixels per inch (about a sun's). You could get 4 (2 across, 2 down) windows using a 6x13 font (which is readable). [ The CPU, batteries, ROM_stuff and keyboard could fold up against screen when being carried. Keeping the folded package to around an inch or so thick is the trick. ] I'm not gonna waste screen space on a keyboard. More info on the display! >This would allow everyone to customize the keypad into a form that they want, >instead of being stuck with whatever the manufacturer wanted to give them. A valid problem, but I find I can use just about any keyboard, dispite some individual idiosyncrasies. Besides, you could always have software that remaps the keys (like X). --ed
dyer@atari.UUCP (01/24/87)
> If you need a keyboard, then use the touch sensitive screen to create one. > I seem to remember that with the resolution given in the original design, and > with the room available on the surface of the screen, you could have a full > 80x24 character screen, and still have enough room for a keypad. The key > layout would be entirely programable, since it is displayed on the screen! > This would allow everyone to customize the keypad into a form that they want, > instead of being stuck with whatever the manufacturer wanted to give them. Take a piece of paper and draw a keyboard on it. Tape it to a formica table top. Now try typing on it. If you enjoy it, I invite you to replace your present terminal with an Atari 400 (it has membrane keys; at least the speaker goes "click!" when you make contact....) IBM has some patents on a rather spiffy chord keyboard. You can type words like "THE" and "AND" (with appropriate case-shifting) in a single stroke. They tried it on some rather bright MIT students and found that after three or four weeks the subjects were typing as fast as (or faster than) they were on normal keyboards. IBM's chord keyboard had 14 keys. It left one hand free for schlepping a mouse around, shuffling papers, or fondling members of the opposite sex. Because of the learning-curve, it would probably be a dismal failure in today's marketplace. Besides, IBM has the patents. The keyboard on an electronic notebook *has* to be silent, or you can't use it in a classroom. How do court stenographer keyboards solve this, with thick pads of felt? -- -Landon Dyer, Atari Corp. {sun,lll-lcc,imagen}!atari!dyer The views expressed here do not not necessarily reflect those of Atari Corp. Point and Click. ->BOOM<-
markp@valid.UUCP (01/26/87)
> In article <1052@ius2.cs.cmu.edu> ralphw@ius2.cs.cmu.edu (Ralph Hyre) writes: > >In article <38@cerebus.UUCP> ronc@cerebus.UUCP (sysadm) writes: > >>In article <191@its63b.ed.ac.uk> bob@its63b.ed.ac.uk (Bob Gray) writes: > >>>Make it with a touch sensitive screen, Throw away the > >>>keyboard and the pointer (mouse)... > >... > >>Ickkk! I have a small problem with this. I can not write. > >>I can at best print slowly and painfully. > >... > >How about adding a connector for a optional keyboard and pointing device > >on the side of the machine? Mechanical support for attaching it (directly > >or with a detached cable) would be straightforward. > ... > No, don't add a keyboard on the end! It was designed with the idea in mind > that it would be about the size of a notebook. If you add an auxiliary > keyboard you defeat the design intent. False for reasons to follow... > > If you need a keyboard, then use the touch sensitive screen to create one. > I seem to remember that with the resolution given in the original design, and > with the room available on the surface of the screen, you could have a full > 80x24 character screen, and still have enough room for a keypad. The key > layout would be entirely programable, since it is displayed on the screen! > This would allow everyone to customize the keypad into a form that they want, > instead of being stuck with whatever the manufacturer wanted to give them. Okay, imagine yourself in a note-taking situation. It has been mentioned in this newsgroup that it is generally possible to type faster than handwrite, that is, at least for people who have become somewhat proficient in typing. I would certainly have to be hard-pressed to print 90wpm, legibly, that is. This "on-screen keyboard" of yours is worthless for this purpose. There is no feel, and the spacing will be all wrong-- completely wrong for touch-typing, and a waste of valuable screen area that would be better used by providing more lines than just 24 (I normally use my Ann-Arbor in 36x80, and this is barely tolerable). > > Keep the idea of an 'electric pencil', since it is rather difficult to type > graphics into the screen. This would allow you to type or write notes, since > you have either form of data entry, and would keep the capability to sketch > all those pretty pictures that professors are so fond of drawing! > > What do you think? > -- > > Edwin Wiles I think that you should concentrate your mind on the application, not on what sounds like the neatest way to apply the technology. The largest LCD displays for consumer applications are much smaller than a typical sheet of paper used for note-taking. Hand-written text large enough to be resolved by the electric pencil interface will be prohibitively large, and the limitation on resolution may even impair the CPU's ability to decipher the characters. For times when the information is flying by, there is no substitute for a keyboard. It must be quiet, but with a good tactile feel. It must be designed especially for lap-top use, since the small area typically occupied by student desks will be filled by the display/base unit. People don't need to watch their fingers as they type, anyway. Dealing with the physical size issue should not be a problem. Students are used to carrying backpacks or similar devices. The overall size of this device can be made to be no thicker than 3 or 4 stacked 8x11 notebooks. The keyboard, rotated 90 degrees and inverted, fits against the display unit and latches to it. The size of the keyboard unit allows its cable to retract inside. The 'electric pencil', with cable, fits into the space between the keyboard and the display. This assembled unit fits into a soft case, suitable for packing into a backpack or attache (or legal attache), or carrying about by the soft case's handle. Yes, you do need the pencil. You also need fairly sophisticated software to compress the digitized images into a form more readily stored than bit-map. Memory, while cheap, is not infinitely cheap. Keyboard entry will eliminate much of the CPU bottleneck here. To insure higher-quality drawings (perhaps even entered more quickly) and to further reduce the data compression problem, an on-screen graphics menu may be appropriate. This would resemble MacDraw/ MacDraft, and would include such things as rubber-band lines, rectangles, and circles. A button is needed on the electric pencil, preferably near the pointing end where your index finger normally rests. One problem introduced by this is the proliferation in the user interface. He/she now has to deal with a keyboard, free-form entry, and structured graphical entry. Barring a major breakthough in flat display size and pointing-device resolution (perhaps one bit-pad technology could be leveraged here, with the pointer being a receiver which detects variations in a 2-dimensional electric field!), choices are limited. Another major user-interface question involves the use of the keyboard to annotate figures. Normally, keystrokes are placed at the cursor position (with automatic margin detection). There must be a quick, intuitive, facility for moving the cursor to a new position. As mentioned by someone earlier, the ability to dump to a host computer is essential. Considering that the thickness of the base unit (the one with the display in it) will be finite, a standard RS-232 connector will suffice. The notebook now becomes a terminal, with the added capability of downloading and uploading. The keyboard is even more useful now, since the arm strain associated with poking each letter can be gruesome. Essentially, then, we have: (aspect ratio is faulty, but you get the picture) +-------------+ / === o o /| <-- RS-232 connector, keyboard and pointer connector +-------------+ | | This space | | | occupied by |O| <-- Power connector for recharging | electronics | | |+---------+-+| | || |M|| | || Flat |E|| | || Panel |N|| | || Display |U|| | Pointing device (same shape as ball-point pen) || | || + _/^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\_________________ |+---------+-+|/ \__##_______________________/ thin flexible cable +-------------+ button Anyway, I have tried to come up with some more constructive ideas. Such an electronic notebook could be a useful product, but I fear that its price would dictate a fairly small market, considering the utility of its prime competitor, the "analog" notebook. In the meantime, it certainly makes for interesting discussion. :-) Mark Papamarcos Valid Logic hplabs!{ridge,pesnta}!valid!markp
janssen@milano.UUCP (01/28/87)
The new H-P 28C calculator looks like it's moving in the right direction.
It opens like a book, has a full alphabet of keys, and a display screen.
No pointing device, no real keyboard, and the screen is too small -- but
it does have a nifty infrared link to the (optional) printer. Now if your
portable machine was thought of as a subset of a larger PC -- perhaps in
continuous contact via some form of cellular telephone link -- improvements
in the H-P design might just qualify.
Bill
--
Bill Janssen, MCC Software Technology
9390 Research Blvd, Austin, Texas 78759
ARPA: janssen@sw.mcc.com PHONE: (512) 338-3682
UUCP: {seismo,harvard,gatech,pyramid}!ut-sally!im4u!milano!janssenronc@cerebus.UUCP (01/29/87)
In article <275@netxcom.UUCP> ewiles@netxcom.UUCP (Edwin Wiles) writes: >In article <1052@ius2.cs.cmu.edu> ralphw@ius2.cs.cmu.edu (Ralph Hyre) writes: >>How about adding a connector for a optional keyboard and pointing device >>on the side of the machine? >No, don't add a keyboard on the end! It was designed with the idea in mind >that it would be about the size of a notebook. If you add an auxiliary >keyboard you defeat the design intent. Actually, as I recall from the book, it was the size of a pocket calculator. I.E., smaller than a notebook. (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong...) >If you need a keyboard, then use the touch sensitive screen to create one. I think that also defeats the purpose of the device. I can't believe one would invent an amazing do-everything personal secretary and cling to such ineffecient entry methods as touch sensitive keyboards (ever tried doing some serious typing on one?) or pencil and paper! I would expect a few buttons for most used functions, and voice control/input for the rest. But if one *must* use a keyboard, it better be one I can touch type on, or it would be pretty much useless to me. Someone else said it's just a toy if it won't talk to a mainframe. I say it's also just a toy if it won't connect to, or provide the functionality of, a decent terminal. Not just for the keyboard, (which may be obsoleted by a sophisticated voice input) but for the (better, larger) display. Ron -- Ronald O. Christian (Fujitsu America Inc., San Jose, Calif.) seismo!amdahl!fai!cerebus!ronc -or- ihnp4!pesnta!fai!cerebus!ronc "Down, boy" "Woof"
aptr@ur-tut.UUCP (01/29/87)
In article <1249@ucbcad.berkeley.edu> edjames@ic.Berkeley.EDU (Ed James) writes: >In article <275@netxcom.UUCP> ewiles@netxcom.UUCP (Edwin Wiles) writes: >>... >>No, don't add a keyboard on the end! It was designed with the idea in mind >>that it would be about the size of a notebook. If you add an auxiliary >>keyboard you defeat the design intent. > >No, I think the design is to make a portable computer. I could not use >it if it didn't have a reasonable keyboard. What we need is a very >flat keyboard. I am not sure that very flat is the right idea. Having ahd experience with many keyboards and computers, I have found that a low profile keyboard in the manner of an IBM PC keyboard works very well. Of course, user feed back is very important. I believe the key board should have a slight bump on each key when the key makes contact. (If you can find a Xerox 16/8 keyboard, that is the feel I like.) Another important question is making the keyboard compatible with something else. I remember my days in high school when I would play with Apple II+'s at school and write my reports on a Xerox 820-II at night. Making the transitions between the keyboard lay outs was always a problem. The keyboard should also be designed to have the same layout as any machine the computer is made compatible with. >>I seem to remember that with the resolution given in the original design, and >>with the room available on the surface of the screen, you could have a full >>80x24 character screen, and still have enough room for a keypad. The key > >[ The CPU, batteries, ROM_stuff and keyboard could fold up against > screen when being carried. Keeping the folded package to around an > inch or so thick is the trick. ] I think the unit probably end up being about three inches thick. The NEC Multispeed uses this folded setup, but it still takes room to get everything in it. A point which I have not seen mentioned is compatability. In this day of computers, it is nice to have a computer that is compatible with one of the big brands (ie. MacIntosch or IBM). How much software is there available for CP/m or generic MS-DOS? It was this lack of software that caused my father to by an AT&T 6300 (well really a Xerox 6064). One of the main reasons I now own a NEC Multispeed is that it is IBM compatible (even more compatible then the IBM Convertible) Another question is that of data storage. My apartment-mate owns a Tandy 100 portable computer with 32k, part of which is used for Ramdisk. Having seen the problems he has with space, I preffer large amounts of Ram (can you say gigobyte?) and Harddisks (300+Meg). Realizing that this is on the large side for a portable, I think it should have atleast 2 3 1/2" disk drives and the possibility for a 20 Meg hard disk. This would allow running large programs that are disk intensive without swapping disks. BTW: In either last weeeks, or the previous weeks Infoworld, there were several articles on portables (ie. Laptops). One of the things that was pointed out is that people are starting to want as much in a laptop as in a Desktop. (ie. 640k IBM compatible with 730 x 600 resolution, 20M hard disk, 2400 baud modem, 2 3 1/2" drives, 2+Meg above board memory, etc...) -- The Wumpus UUCP: {seismo,allegra,decvax}!rochester!ur-tut!aptr BITNET: aptrccss@uorvm Disclaimer: "Who? When? Me? It was the Booze!" - M. Binkley
jc@cdx39.UUCP (01/29/87)
> > Essentially, then, we have: (aspect ratio is faulty, but you get the picture) > > +-------------+ > / === o o /| <-- RS-232 connector, keyboard and pointer connector > +-------------+ | > | This space | | > | occupied by |O| <-- Power connector for recharging > | electronics | | > |+---------+-+| | > || |M|| | > || Flat |E|| | > || Panel |N|| | > || Display |U|| | Pointing device (same shape as ball-point pen) > || | || + _/^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\_________________ > |+---------+-+|/ \__##_______________________/ thin flexible cable > +-------------+ button > > Anyway, I have tried to come up with some more constructive ideas. Such an > electronic notebook could be a useful product, but I fear that its price would > dictate a fairly small market, considering the utility of its prime > competitor, the "analog" notebook. In the meantime, it certainly makes for > interesting discussion. :-) > A small box just like this has been marketed for some time now by Data General. I've seen a few of them. They just barely fit into the typical thin briefcase, are battery powered, and have a built-in RSR-232 port and modem (phone jack). See your local DG sales rep for more details. {To make my comments longer than the quoted stuff :-} -- John M Chambers Phone: 617/364-2000x7304 Email: ...{adelie,bu-cs,harvax,inmet,mcsbos,mit-eddie,mot[bos]}!cdx39!{jc,news,root,usenet,uucp} Smail: Codex Corporation; Mailstop C1-30; 20 Cabot Blvd; Mansfield MA 02048-1193 Clever-Saying: Uucp me out of here, Scotty; there's no AI on this node!
carl@harlie.UUCP (01/31/87)
> I would expect a few > buttons for most used functions, and voice control/input for the rest. You don't want to rely on voice control/input. I'm not so sure today's technology can do that, though I may be behind in what I know of it. But can you imagine a professor lecturing a bunch of people muttering into little microphones? I would prefer the sound of fingers whispering onto muffled keyboards myself. Now what if all the keys on the keyboard (assume something quiet with a feel like that of the IBM PC/AT's) had little LCD caps, capable of displaying symbols? You want a dvorak keyboard, you get a dvorak keyboard. You want a qwerty keyboard, you got one. You hit META in EMACS and the keys change to show what will happen depending what key you hit. (P'raps we should borrow from WordStar here and have it display the choices if you don't hit a key in the next three seconds.) Same thing using C-X, C-C. NOT for M-x. (All right, I'm addicted to gnumacs.) Rearrange the function keys any way you like. -- Any ideas here are free for stealing. I just want to see them implemented. -- /--------------------------------v-------------------------------------------\ | Carl Greenberg | "I have a very firm grasp on reality! I | | Lunatic Laboratories Unlimited | can reach out and strangle it any time!" | | "I always have fun because I'm | UUCP: -- Me | | out of my mind." -- Zippy | {qantel,ihnp4,lll-crg}!ptsfa!harlie!carl | \--------------------------------^-------------------------------------------/
ewiles@netxcom.UUCP (02/02/87)
In article <938@valid.UUCP> markp@valid.UUCP (Mark P.) writes: >...[heavily edited]... >There is >no feel, and the spacing will be all wrong-- completely wrong for touch-typing, >and a waste of valuable screen area that would be better used by providing >more lines than just 24 (I normally use my Ann-Arbor in 36x80, and this is >barely tolerable). >... Ok, Ok, I agree now! Having a touch sensitive screen keyboard is not a perfect idea. >... >For times when the information is flying by, there is no substitute for a >keyboard. It must be quiet, but with a good tactile feel. It must be >designed especially for lap-top use, since the small area typically occupied >by student desks will be filled by the display/base unit. People don't need >to watch their fingers as they type, anyway. >... Agreed... >... >Dealing with the physical size issue should not be a problem. Students are >used to carrying backpacks or similar devices. The overall size of this >device can be made to be no thicker than 3 or 4 stacked 8x11 notebooks. >... I remember quite vividly the difficulty I had trying to carry all the books I had to have, along with 3 to 4 8x11 notebooks that were only 3/8 inch thick. Now you want to remove those and replace them with an equivalent sized device which will in all likelyhood be much heavier??? No thanks! The prime design constrains for me are: - Size. Approximately 8 x 11 x 1 inches. In it's complete, packed-for-movement form. - Weight Not to exceed 5 lbs, preferably < 2 lbs. - Durabilty. Remember, it's being slung around all over the place! - Ease of Use. Which includes having to set up and take down for each class. You usually have only 5 to 10 minutes to get from one class to the next, so if it takes 2 minutes to set up and the same to take down, I can't use it. (A minute isn't all that long.) > ...[suggestions for design and packaging]... > ...[nice picture]... Your discussion on packaging and some of the details on interface is interesting. But, can you do it within the above limits? I suggest that the 'chord' keyboard which has been discussed in this news group would go a long way towards reducing the size of the device. And towards making it easier to use, the chord keyboard frees the other hand to use the electric pencil for graphics. The unfortunate thing about it is that it probably wouldn't sell. Too many potential customers are wedded to the 'standard' keyboard, and would refuse to take the time to learn a new way. Even if it were an improvement, I've seen that happen myself! :-( >... >Anyway, I have tried to come up with some more constructive ideas. Such an >electronic notebook could be a useful product, but I fear that its price would >dictate a fairly small market, considering the utility of its prime >competitor, the "analog" notebook. In the meantime, it certainly makes for >interesting discussion. :-) Yes, it does doesn't it! And you may be right about the price. But look what's happened to the micro market and you may get the idea that such a product would start out rather expensive and end up reasonable rather quickly. Consider also that a notebook that can keep your notes legible indefinitely, can be reused quarter after quarter, and allows you to easily edit your notes would be worth a little more. [If one existed, I'd buy one now, and I'm not even in school anymore! I'd use it for conference meetings and such.] Enjoy! -- Edwin Wiles seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles Net Express, Inc. 1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300 Vienna, VA 22180
henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (02/03/87)
> A point which I have not seen mentioned is compatability. In this day of > computers, it is nice to have a computer that is compatible with one of the > big brands (ie. MacIntosch or IBM). ... If you design for compatibility with a donkey cart, what you get is a donkey cart. -- Legalize Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology freedom! {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!henry
edjames@ic.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (02/04/87)
In article <546@harlie.UUCP> carl@harlie.UUCP (Carl Greenberg) writes: > Now what if all the keys on the keyboard (assume something >quiet with a feel like that of the IBM PC/AT's) had little LCD caps, >capable of displaying symbols? This is a cute idea, but how useful is it for the major keys? How often do you want to switch between qwert and dvorak? A line of label-able function keys would be nice, but it could be a handicap. There is no standard for function keys on terminals, and since we all want this toy to be 'compatible' with other terminals/hosts, hosers could write software that *depended* upon the existence of function keys. Bad move. Speaking of software, it would be cool if I could write software, burn it into a rom cartridge and pop the applications in and out as needed. Of course, one could just (heaven forbid!) buy the software at your local ripoff computer store, but I would rather pick up freeware off the net and cross-compile it. I don't know how carried away we can get OS-wise. Multi-tasking, rom based, megs-o-memory, shared libraries, power-of-a-cray-in-the-heel-of- your-shoe kind of stuff. What is necessary? Note that this thing will need a base station that has battery chargers, printer interface, disks etc. It probably won't be the case that someone will use this as his sole connection to the computer world, just as a link to it while out in the sunshine. Maybe it doesn't need to be all *that* powerful. --ed
sjrapaport@watcgl.UUCP (02/04/87)
In article <546@harlie.UUCP> carl@harlie.UUCP (Carl Greenberg) writes: > You don't want to rely on voice control/input. I'm not so sure >today's technology can do that, though I may be behind in what I know >of it. But can you imagine a professor lecturing a bunch of people >muttering into little microphones? I would prefer the sound of fingers >whispering onto muffled keyboards myself. Well, what about a professor lecturing a bunch of people sitting in perfect silence so's their voice input mikes can catch every word he says and get a perfect transcript of the lecture? You're half right about today's voice input technology. It can't quite do what I've just suggested, yet (Although it's a software and memory size problem, not hardware.) But it can already recognize a limited vocabulary pretty well, well enough to be used in industrial applications. But automatic transcription, if you're not too concerned with spelling of homonyms, can be done with limited results already, and it gets better the more money you throw at it. It's worth a try. -steve
javoskamp@watnot.UUCP (02/04/87)
In article <549@watcgl.UUCP> sjrapaport@watcgl.UUCP (Steve Rapaport) writes: >In article <546@harlie.UUCP> carl@harlie.UUCP (Carl Greenberg) writes: >> You don't want to rely on voice control/input. I'm not so sure >>... >>whispering onto muffled keyboards myself. > >Well, what about a professor lecturing a bunch of people sitting in >perfect silence so's their voice input mikes can catch every word he >says and get a perfect transcript of the lecture? > >You're half right about today's voice input technology. It can't >quite do what I've just suggested, yet (Although it's a software >and memory size problem, not hardware.) But it can already recognize a >limited vocabulary pretty well, well enough to be used in industrial >applications. But automatic transcription, if you're not too concerned >with spelling of homonyms, can be done with limited results already, >and it gets better the more money you throw at it. It's worth a try. >-steve Of course, if the students are going to be perfectly silent you might as well just get a video tape of the lecture and download the notes onto the pc. Then the students can take the course whenever they want to, not at 8:30 am Monday, Wednesday, Friday. Mind you, it might be useful in a meeting or somesuch. Jeff Voskamp -- The opinions expressed herein are accurate. The same cannot be said for spelling and grammar. UUCP : {allegra,decvax,utzoo,clydeo}!watmath!watnot!javoskamp CSNET : javoskamp%watnot@waterloo.CSNET
sewilco@mecc.UUCP (02/05/87)
Let's remember that most of the things which people are mentioning here are *peripherals*. What's needed is one good simple main unit which is usable on its own, yet has interfaces for peripherals. The original idea was a small unit with some kind of keypad, display, and a lot of memory. Keyboards, mice, larger displays, printers, and additional storage should all be extras which can be connected. The basic unit should have attachment points for some devices which a use
mouse@mcgill-vision.UUCP (02/14/87)
In article <1266@ucbcad.berkeley.edu>, edjames@ic.Berkeley.EDU (Ed James) writes: > In article <546@harlie.UUCP> carl@harlie.UUCP (Carl Greenberg) writes: >> Now what if all the keys on the keyboard [...] had little LCD caps, >> capable of displaying symbols? > This is a cute idea, but how useful is it for the major keys? How > often do you want to switch between qwert and dvorak? Try every time I log in; that is, I won't be the only person using the keyboard! Of course, for the electronic notepad idea, I probably would be; but soft keycap symbols would be nice to have anyway, because that way I can configure mine for Dvorak and the next guy can configure his for QWERTY, instead of having to buy different versions. They *definitely* would be nice for a terminal that multiple people are likely to use. der Mouse USA: {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse Europe: mcvax!decvax!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse ARPAnet: think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@harvard.harvard.edu
michael@crlt.UUCP (02/22/87)
In article <991@ur-tut.UUCP>, aptr@ur-tut.UUCP (The Wumpus) writes: > >[ The CPU, batteries, ROM_stuff and keyboard could fold up against > > screen when being carried. Keeping the folded package to around an > > inch or so thick is the trick. ] > > I think the unit probably end up being about three inches thick. The NEC > Multispeed uses this folded setup, but it still takes room to get everything > in it. Take a look at "surface-mounted devices". These amount to chips with solder bumps or tiny leads that you solder directly to a super-small-trace PC board. Things can get >really< thin with this technology - especially if you mount them on both sides of the board. (The normal use is to then put legs on the little board and mount it like a chip on a normal board, but some equipment dispenses with this step - and there's really no need for it.) > Another question is that of data storage. My apartment-mate owns a Tandy 100 > portable computer with 32k, part of which is used for Ramdisk. Having seen > the problems he has with space, I preffer large amounts of Ram (can you say > gigobyte?) and Harddisks (300+Meg). Realizing that this is on the large side > for a portable, I think it should have atleast 2 3 1/2" disk drives and the > possibility for a 20 Meg hard disk. This would allow running large programs > that are disk intensive without swapping disks. Hard disks could be a problem - can you imagine the havoc caused to your precious 20 megabytes of class notes when the notebook with the spinning hard disk falls to the asphalt-tile-covered-concrete classroom floor? (It's tough enough on bonded-wire connected chips.) Meanwhile, silicon RAM technology is catching up with horizontal recording, in terms of price per bit and bits per volume. Won't be long and you can get your hundred or so megabytes on CMOS chips for less than an equivalent disk, and power it off a lithium cell for decades at a time. (Vertical recording might put disks back in the running at the gigabyte level, if they ever get the bugs out.) > BTW: In either last weeeks, or the previous weeks Infoworld, there were > several articles on portables (ie. Laptops). One of the things that was > pointed out is that people are starting to want as much in a laptop as in a > Desktop. (ie. 640k IBM compatible with 730 x 600 resolution, 20M hard disk, > 2400 baud modem, 2 3 1/2" drives, 2+Meg above board memory, etc...) STARTING to? Heck, I wanted something hotter than a mainframe in a laptop back in the '60s, when I first started thinking "personal computers will be real soon". =========================================================================== "I've got code in my node." | UUCP: ...!ihnp4!itivax!node!michael | AUDIO: (313) 973-8787 Michael McClary | SNAIL: 2091 Chalmers, Ann Arbor MI 48104 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Above opinions are the official position of McClary Associates. Customers may have opinions of their own, which are given all the attention paid for. ===========================================================================
wyle@ethz.UUCP (02/24/87)
Why not two 600 Mbyte CD WORM (Write Once Read Mostly) devices instead
of magnetic media? A Gigabyte of RAM anyone?
I would be happy now with 8 Mbyte, and an option to expand.
Why not a personal workstation which you can carry around easily (~10
pounds)? Office furniture could have special ports, grooves, and wires
to attach to the portable box, charge his batteries, use the 21" color
screen, and Wide Area Network or telephone lines.
Communications is essential. A laptop PC without communications is
useless. Video drivers for a BIG screen would be nice, as well.
I hate to say it on this net, but the IBM PC Convertible is a good
start. It is rugged, reliable, and modular (the LCD screen detatches;
devices can be daisy chained). IBM lent me a demo model, and in spite
of the lack of an RS-232 port on the "standard" model, I am favorably
imporessed.
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