dave@micropen (David F. Carlson) (03/19/87)
I have been reading a lot about the *new* ADOS for IBM PCs
and I have several good questions. My perspective is as
a system administrator on two UNIX systems that happen to
be IBM PC AT's (Microport). Here's my beef.
It used to be that microcomputers were pretty toylike. Back
in my CP/M days the biggest thing about system admin was making
sure that your lastest and greatest BDOS hacks were bootable
by the machine. MS-DOS similarly is simple. Maybe a backup
or two every few months. Done with your machine--kill the power
and turn it off. Simple.
My management of these two UNIX boxes, which have several developers
doing coding (including myself), is as difficult as the two VAX
750s I used to manage in my last job. UUCP, Usenet, mod.sources,
cron and log file overseeing, file system preening, nasty motd's
for users to clean up their directories, etc, etc. There are people
(who read the net a lot I'm told) that do system admin for a living.
This is a very much sideline for me--and it shows.
My point is that the executive who now kills his PC when he's done
will have an entirely different beast when these 386/UNIX/XENIX/ADOS
boxes arrive. Communication (24 hours a day) will be necessary--
commonplace. Best download rates, etc. But who is going to manage
this cacophony of machines? I find it hard to believe that Mr.
corporate-America-middle-manager is going to learn the guts of uucp,
or how to apply a patch to netnews. By the amount of trouble I've had
trying to get people to use their d&$m passwords here, I find it hard
to believe that computer discipline will be immediate.
Any solutions or do you all think I've found a non-problem?
--
David F. Carlson, Micropen, Inc.
...!{seismo}!rochester!ur-valhalla!micropen!dave
"The faster I go, the behinder I get." --Lewis Carrollcmcmanis@sun.UUCP (03/21/87)
In article <165@micropen>, dave@micropen (David F. Carlson) writes:
< My point is that the executive who now kills his PC when he's done
< will have an entirely different beast when these 386/UNIX/XENIX/ADOS
< boxes arrive. Communication (24 hours a day) will be necessary--
< commonplace. Best download rates, etc. But who is going to manage
< this cacophony of machines? I find it hard to believe that Mr.
< corporate-America-middle-manager is going to learn the guts of uucp,
< or how to apply a patch to netnews. By the amount of trouble I've had
< trying to get people to use their d&$m passwords here, I find it hard
< to believe that computer discipline will be immediate.
<
< Any solutions or do you all think I've found a non-problem?
<
< David F. Carlson, Micropen, Inc.
Actually Dave I suspect you have hit it right on the nose. As systems get
more complicated they will be *impossible* to sell to business because the
6 weeks the executive spends learning the system + the cost of the system
is more expensive than the increase in productivity. So the ROI is not
there and the system doesn't get bought. Many people are trying to
capitalize on this 'problem' (Metaphor comes to mind) since the first
person to come up with a viable solution should get rich.
--
--Chuck McManis
uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com
These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.lou@hoxna.UUCP (03/24/87)
In article <165@micropen>, dave@micropen (David F. Carlson) writes: > > <Micros will be to complicated for amateurs> > Any solutions or do you all think I've found a non-problem? > Well, here at Bell many users have their own 3b/PC7300/PC6300. While the people here aren't as computer-naive as at some places, they're not all wizards either. They seldom have any problems; once you set them up, give 'em a UUCP link to the VAX, etc. it's usually the last you hear from them. Fact is, UNIX (tm) administration just isn't that hard; micro- envrionments seldom *need* kernel hacks, and lots don't even have source. And since at least *half* the hassle of being SA is dealing with the users, the typical micro person won't have that problem. So, in my opinion, what we'll have is someone hanging around to install the beasties, and manage the central file/print servers, and the owners of the little machines can "administer" their little UNIX (tm) boxes to their heart's content. Occasionally, something will break, and they'll need support. Otherwise, they'll be fine. lou @ hoxna
kent@xanth.UUCP (03/25/87)
[in response to two articles detailing the unlikelihood of a business type succeeding as his own Un*x guru/sysop] The answer to Chuck's "somebody who solves this will get rich" (paraphrased) is to set up a service company to do 2 things: 1) remote apply bug fixes to business user's vanilla un*x clones, using something like the Blue Lynx(tm) technology; 2) on site or remote install new, purchased applications software, and maintain with patches. Since 1 could be done with Kermit and a script file, it could be fairly automated. If 2 were limited to a small range of products, the easy cases could also be automated, just keep a list of applicable clientele. You would earn your money debugging unexpected interactions among the various packages within each user's suite of software. Still, in a universe of Wordstar(tm), dbase III(tm) and Peachtree Accounting(tm) or whoever is in first place, this could become a multimillion service industry to the first guy in the door. Personally, I've been rich; I prefer poor. Still, if you prefer rich, go for it! -- Kent Paul Dolan, "The Contradictor", 25 years as a programmer, CS MS Student at ODU, Norfolk, Virginia, to find out how I was supposed to be doing this stuff all these years. 3D dynamic motion graphics a specialty. Work wanted. Unemployment is soooo nice though...I never have to disclaim anything! UUCP : kent@xanth.UUCP or ...seismo!decuac!edison!xanth!kent CSNET : kent@odu.csnet ARPA : kent@xanth.cs.odu.edu Voice : (804) 587-7760 USnail: P.O. Box 1559, Norfolk, Va 23501-1559 Wisdom: "Peace in mankind's lifetime. Why leave a whole universe unexplored?"
ken@rochester.UUCP (03/25/87)
|The answer to Chuck's "somebody who solves this will get rich" (paraphrased) |is to set up a service company to do 2 things: | | 1) remote apply bug fixes to business user's vanilla un*x clones, | using something like the Blue Lynx(tm) technology; | 2) on site or remote install new, purchased applications software, | and maintain with patches. Yeah, but would a business be willing to let outsiders snoop into their files? Personally I think it's time we had disposable system disks. spool/uucp full? Copy the stuff you want and shred the cartridge :-). Well, reformat is cheaper. Ken
kdavies@dalcsug.UUCP (03/26/87)
In article <165@micropen> dave@micropen (David F. Carlson) writes: > >My point is that the executive who now kills his PC when he's done >will have an entirely different beast when these 386/UNIX/XENIX/ADOS >boxes arrive. Communication (24 hours a day) will be necessary-- >commonplace. Best download rates, etc. But who is going to manage >this cacophony of machines? I find it hard to believe that Mr. >corporate-America-middle-manager is going to learn the guts of uucp, >or how to apply a patch to netnews. By the amount of trouble I've had >trying to get people to use their d&$m passwords here, I find it hard >to believe that computer discipline will be immediate. > >Any solutions or do you all think I've found a non-problem? > > >-- >David F. Carlson, Micropen, Inc. >...!{seismo}!rochester!ur-valhalla!micropen!dave > I think you've brought up an extremely good point. I'm doing some work now for a fellow who is using a Xenix system --- he feels right at home with it and can get by normally day by day, _except_ when it comes to figuring out inconsistencies in the system; restoring after a disk crash; use of cron and the other multitude of functions which must be taken care of. The main problem, is that these functions need not be known (and should not) to the average user in order for him to do his work. These are what you might consider "behind the scenes" and _yes_ something will have to be done about this problem for the Unix/Xenix systems coming up on PC's and AT's. Your normal manager will have a hard enough time learning to USE the system, if he's never used a computer before let alone the internal functions. What you might see appearing are system administrators who will either: 1) administer the one site for these managers or 2) administer a whole set sites for different companies. in my opion, VERY few businessmen will be able to administer a system by themselves -- did YOU learn Unix in one week ? Not even crash courses can give you the experience only obtained by actual hands on experience. -- Kevin Davies ...{seismo|watmath|utai|garfield} !dalcs!dalcsug!kdavies Kirk : "Spock, I do wish you'd stop using those colourful metaphors" Spock: "The _hell_ I will, Captain" ---------------------------------------------------------------
ted@blia.UUCP (03/26/87)
In article <26361@rochester.ARPA>, ken@rochester.ARPA (Ken Yap) writes: > Personally I think it's time we had disposable system disks. spool/uucp > full? Copy the stuff you want and shred the cartridge :-)... We already have disposable disks. Soft-jacket floppies go through shredders real nice :-). -- =============================================================================== Ted Marshall Britton Lee, Inc. p-mail: 14600 Winchester Blvd, Los Gatos, Ca 95030 voice: (408)378-7000 uucp: ...!ucbvax!mtxinu!blia!ted ARPA: mtxinu!blia!ted@Berkeley.EDU disclaimer: These opinions are my own and may not reflect those of my employer; I leave them alone and they leave me alone. fortune for today: Pecor's Health-Food Principle: Never eat rutabaga on any day of the week that has a "y" in it.
dennisg@fritz.UUCP (03/27/87)
In article <26361@rochester.ARPA>, ken@rochester.ARPA (Ken Yap) writes: > Personally I think it's time we had disposable system disks. spool/uucp > full? Copy the stuff you want and shred the cartridge :-)... In article <1896@blia.BLI.COM> ted@blia.BLI.COM (Ted Marshall) writes: >We already have disposable disks. Soft-jacket floppies go through shredders >real nice :-). And if you want to dispose of your data by shredding, and it only lives on a hard disk, you can copy it to a floppy and then shred it! :-)