kathy@wrcola.UUCP (K.M.Vincent) (08/15/87)
This may or may not be the proper place for this posting, but ...
This morning, I answered my phone to find a computer at the
other end. I'm not a computer-phobe - I like computers - ask
anyone. But I didn't like the implications of what happened next.
What I heard was a prerecorded sales pitch for insulation.
I hang up on answering machines, and I politely extricate myself
from telephone pitch people. And I wasn't about to listen to a
recorded sales pitch. So I hit the switch-hook. But the pitch
went on. Thinking the problem was somehow connected with the
fact that I have 3-way calling on my line, I hit the switch-hook
again. The pitch went on and on. The next time, I held the
button down several seconds - long enough to disconnect any
call - except that one. The pitch went on and on and on -
until the recording at the other end finished with, "If you'd
like to take advantage of this special sale, leave your name
and number at the sound of the tone." - at which point I told
them exactly what I thought of their sales technique.
I immediately called the operator and talked to the supervisor
on duty. Turns out they've had several complaints. The calling
computer can, in fact, call and HOLD ON TO MY LINE AS LONG
AS IT WANTS. There is no way for me to disconnect it - even
tho it is MY line that *I* am paying for and I don't want to
listen to the recording. Which means someone with a really
long sales pitch could, presumably, call and tie up my phone
all day, and there's nothing I could do from my end to stop it.
And right now, according to the supervisor, there's nothing to
stop anyone from doing that. It's perfectly legal.
Personally, I am furious.
Has anyone else experienced the sales computer "clamp-down"?
Anyone have any comments?
Kathy Vincent AT&T, Winston-Salem, NC
:<*>:<*>:<*>:<*>:<*>:<*>:<*>:<*>:<*>:<*>:<*>:<*>:<*>:<*>:<*>:<*>:
AT&T: {ihnp4|mtune|burl}!wrcola!kathy
Home: {ihnp4|mtune|ptsfa|codas}!bakerst!kathylyang%scherzo@Sun.COM (Larry Yang) (08/16/87)
In article <831@wrcola.UUCP> kathy@wrcola.UUCP (K.M.Vincent) writes: > >This may or may not be the proper place for this posting, but ... > >This morning, I answered my phone to find a computer at the >other end. > [...] >What I heard was a prerecorded sales pitch for insulation. > [...] >And right now, according to the supervisor, there's nothing to >stop anyone from doing that. It's perfectly legal. This discussion was raging on misc.consmuers a few months ago. I suppose that in North Carolina, it is legal, but in California, and in several other states, the selling party must have a human ask if the person wishes to listen to a computer/precorded machine give a sales pitch. This methond is quite dangerous, as tying up a phone line like that prevents you from getting out in the event of an emergency. I would suggest that bugging your state government would be the best move. In the meantime, the next time you get a call like that, when they ask for your address, grab your nearest piece of junk mail and give them the return address off of it. Or turn your stereo/TV on full volume and hold your phone up to the speaker. Be creative. Disclaimer: The above responses are not original ideas of mine, but were read off of misc.consumers. :-) ******************************************************************************** -- --Larry Yang [lyang@sun.com,{backbone}!sun!lyang]| A REAL _|> /\ | Sun Microsystems, Inc., Mountain View, CA | signature | | | /-\ |-\ /-\ Hobbes: "Why do we play war and not peace?" | <|_/ \_| \_/\| |_\_| Calvin: "Too few role models." | _/ _/ --Larry Yang [lyang@sun.com,{backbone}!sun!lyang]| A REAL _|> /\ | Sun Microsystems, Inc., Mountain View, CA | signature | | | /-\ |-\ /-\ Hobbes: "Why do we play war and not peace?" | <|_/ \_| \_/\| |_\_| Calvin: "Too few role models." | _/ _/
stevem@fai.UUCP (Steve Minneman) (08/17/87)
In article <25725@sun.uucp> lyang@sun.UUCP (Larry Yang) writes: >In article <831@wrcola.UUCP> kathy@wrcola.UUCP (K.M.Vincent) writes: >> >>This may or may not be the proper place for this posting, but ... >> >>This morning, I answered my phone to find a computer at the >>other end. >> [...] >>What I heard was a prerecorded sales pitch for insulation. >> [...] >>And right now, according to the supervisor, there's nothing to >>stop anyone from doing that. It's perfectly legal. > >This discussion was raging on misc.consmuers a few months ago. I suppose >that in North Carolina, it is legal, but in California, and in several >other states, the selling party must have a human ask if the person >wishes to listen to a computer/precorded machine give a sales pitch. > >This methond is quite dangerous, as tying up a phone line like that prevents >you from getting out in the event of an emergency. I would suggest that >bugging your state government would be the best move. > >In the meantime, the next time you get a call like that, when they >ask for your address, grab your nearest piece of junk mail and give >them the return address off of it. Or turn your stereo/TV on full volume >and hold your phone up to the speaker. Be creative. Even more effective to irritate those who are bothering you: turn on your modem and let them record THAT! -- Steven A. Minneman (Fujitsu America Inc, San Jose, Ca) !seismo!amdahl!fai!stevem The best government is no government at all.
dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake) (08/17/87)
In article <831@wrcola.UUCP> kathy@wrcola.UUCP (K.M.Vincent) writes: >This may or may not be the proper place for this posting, but ... > >This morning, I answered my phone to find a computer at the >other end. ... >... >button down several seconds - long enough to disconnect any >call - except that one. The pitch went on and on and on - >... >I immediately called the operator and talked to the supervisor >on duty. Turns out they've had several complaints. The calling >computer can, in fact, call and HOLD ON TO MY LINE AS LONG >AS IT WANTS. There is no way for me to disconnect it - even >tho it is MY line that *I* am paying for and I don't want to >listen to the recording. Which means someone with a really >long sales pitch could, presumably, call and tie up my phone >all day, and there's nothing I could do from my end to stop it. This sounds like nonsense. The disconnection of a call from your line is controlled by your local telephone exchange. Many have delays of around 30 to 45 second built in so that you can hang up a phone and go to a different phone in your house and pick it up without losing an incoming call. The timing may be different on a call you originate since I thinkthe default is "calling party control" except for this time out to avoid problems such as you describe. In any case, there is no reason in the telephone system hardware for a computer calling you should be treated any differently from a person. Even if the hardware is not doing what you want, there is usually a law against harassing phone calls (which certainly any day long unsolicited call would be) and if that fails you could try a civil action. Finally, you might write to your elected representatives and try having the law changed to prohibit such practices. This would certainly take a while however. -- +1 617-492-8860 Donald E. Eastlake, III ARPA: dee@CCA.CCA.COM usenet: {cbosg,decvax,linus}!cca!dee P. O. Box N, MIT Branch P. O., Cambridge, MA 02139-0903 USA
mag@lcuxlm.UUCP (08/18/87)
In article <19047@cca.CCA.COM>, dee@cca.CCA.COM (Donald Eastlake) writes: > In article <831@wrcola.UUCP> kathy@wrcola.UUCP (K.M.Vincent) writes: > >This may or may not be the proper place for this posting, but ... > > > >This morning, I answered my phone to find a computer at the > >other end. ... > >... > >button down several seconds - long enough to disconnect any > >call - except that one. The pitch went on and on and on - > >... > > This sounds like nonsense. The disconnection of a call from your line > is controlled by your local telephone exchange. Many have delays of > around 30 to 45 second built in so that you can hang up a phone and go > to a different phone in your house and pick it up without losing an > incoming call. The timing may be different on a call you originate It may not be. About 15% of the lines in the country are served by Step-by- Step switching equipment. On many models of steppers, the call will not be knocked down until the calling party hangs up. Steppers can return answer supervision from a called party, telling the network to cut through and begin billing, but they are often unable to signal a called party disconnect. Therefore, a computer or nuisance caller can indeed tie up your line. With crossbar and electronic switches, you normally can get dial tone within 1 second after hanging up if you are the calling party, and after 10 seconds if you are the called party. With feature rich services(custom calling), the calling party needs to go on hook for about 3 seconds to get dial tone, so that the switch can distinguish between an on-hook and a switchhook flash. These delays may be slightly longer during busy hours. Mike Gray
kathy@bakerst.UUCP (Kathy Vincent) (08/18/87)
In article <25725@sun.uucp> lyang@sun.UUCP (Larry Yang) writes: >In article <831@wrcola.UUCP> kathy@wrcola.UUCP (K.M.Vincent) writes: >> >>This may or may not be the proper place for this posting, but ... >This discussion was raging on misc.consmuers a few months ago. I was afraid that might be the case. I don't get misc.consumers, so I missed that discussion. I read the description of the groups, though, and even misc.consumers didn't seem like the perfect fit, so I chanced it. Thanks to everyone who has responded. Kathy Vincent ------> Home: {ihnp4|mtune|codas|ptsfa}!bakerst!kathy ------> AT&T: {ihnp4|mtune|burl}!wrcola!kathy
larry@kitty.UUCP (Larry Lippman) (08/19/87)
In article <1277@lcuxlm.UUCP>, mag@lcuxlm.UUCP writes: > It may not be. About 15% of the lines in the country are served by Step-by- > Step switching equipment. On many models of steppers, the call will not > be knocked down until the calling party hangs up. Steppers can return > answer supervision from a called party, telling the network to cut through > and begin billing, but they are often unable to signal a called party > disconnect. Therefore, a computer or nuisance caller can indeed tie up your > line. Virtually every SxS central office still operated by the BOC's has had their connectors (both local and intertoll) modified with thermal relays to provide for called-party disconnect after a nominal 30 seconds. This is also true of most SxS and X-Y central offices operated by independent operating telephone companies. The lack of called-party release has been too much of a problem, so modification or replacement of local and intertoll connectors to provide a timed-release was a priority effort during the 50's and 60's. <> Larry Lippman @ Recognition Research Corp., Clarence, New York <> UUCP: {allegra|ames|boulder|decvax|rutgers|watmath}!sunybcs!kitty!larry <> VOICE: 716/688-1231 {hplabs|ihnp4|mtune|seismo|utzoo}!/ <> FAX: 716/741-9635 {G1,G2,G3 modes} "Have you hugged your cat today?"
jay@splut.UUCP (Jay Maynard) (08/20/87)
In article <831@wrcola.UUCP>, kathy@wrcola.UUCP (K.M.Vincent) writes: > [...] The calling > computer can, in fact, call and HOLD ON TO MY LINE AS LONG > AS IT WANTS. There is no way for me to disconnect it... > > And right now, according to the supervisor, there's nothing to > stop anyone from doing that. It's perfectly legal. Not in Texas, it isn't. There's a law here saying that computer-generated sales pitches can't call numbers either sequentially or randomly, but instead must work from a hand-keyed list, and that they must release the called phone line within 10 seconds of the party hanging up. I don't know what the criminal penalties involved are, but offenders can be disconnected immediately by the phone company (and, at least in the case I know of, are quickly). Maybe you should write your state representative, and urge a similar law there. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC...>splut!< | uucp: ...!seismo!soma!uhnix1!sugar!splut!jay "Don't ask ME about Unix... | GEnie: JAYMAYNARD (...e-i-e-i-o!) I speak SNA!" | CI$: 71036,1603 FidoNet: SysOp @106/64 The opinions herein are shared by neither of my cats, much less anyone else.
mat@mtx5a.ATT.COM (m.terribile) (08/27/87)
> >This morning, I answered my phone to find a computer at the > >other end. ... > >... > >button down several seconds - long enough to disconnect any > >call - except that one. The pitch went on and on and on - > >... > >I immediately called the operator and talked to the supervisor > >on duty. Turns out they've had several complaints. The calling > >computer can, in fact, call and HOLD ON TO MY LINE AS LONG > >AS IT WANTS. ... > > This sounds like nonsense. The disconnection of a call from your line > is controlled by your local telephone exchange. Many have delays of > around 30 to 45 second built in so that you can hang up a phone and go > to a different phone in your house and pick it up without losing an > incoming call. ... I have never heard of the delay in dropping a call after a hangup. Is this perhaps only applied after a call has been held by a switchhook flash? At one time, the behavior described in the original posting was a characteristic of the electromechanical central office. If you are on a step-by-step (Strowger) switch office, it's possible that you still have this, especially if you are served by a non-Bell (non-RBOC) company. Otherwise it seems unlikely. The motivation for fixing this problem is the possibility that the telephone may be rendered useless for emergency and lifesaving calls. Perhaps someone should write a letter to the company with the call-generating machine suggesting that if someone were to die or suffer a worsened injury as a result, they might be the target of a lawsuit. Or perhaps you and some friends should arrange to call them all at once (to tie up all their lines) explaining why you are upset by their operation, and refusing to hang up. -- from Mole End Mark Terribile (scrape .. dig ) mtx5b!mat (Please mail to mtx5b!mat, NOT mtx5a! mat, or to mtx5a!mtx5b!mat) (mtx5b!mole-end!mat will also reach me) ,.. .,, ,,, ..,***_*.
rjd@tiger.UUCP (09/02/87)
> >> >This morning, I answered my phone to find a computer at the > >> >other end. ... > > A few weeks ago, I came home from work. I hadn't turned off > my answering machine yet. The phone rang and ... you guessed it ... > one machine talking to another. What a perfect environment > for artificial intelligence research. > > Let's see if .signature works. (looks like your .sig didn't work...) Yeah, I had one of those machine conversations a while back on my answering machine. Still is a bother because, since my machine will record up to three or four minutes as long as you keep talking, and I have no fast forward button (cheap but good machine), I had to listen to the whole spiel to hear the empty message after it.... I would just settle to find out who the person was that came up with the idea. Then I could program my uucp to poll his number every 5 minutes :-). Randy
kathy@wrcola.UUCP (K.M.Vincent) (09/04/87)
In article <140200006@tiger.UUCP> rjd@tiger.UUCP writes: > >> >> >This morning, I answered my phone to find a computer at the >> >> >other end. ... Thanks to all the people who responded to my original posting. I had one thing to add: A couple of people said that, if I hang up, the other end should disconnect within a relatively short period of time - 10-30 seconds or so. I had a note from someone, tho, who said he hung up, and when he picked up his phone 10 * minutes * later, the computer was still talking. Kathy Vincent -----> AT&T: {ihnp4|mtune|burl}!wrcola!kathy -----> Home: {ihnp4|mtune|ptsfa|codas}!bakerst!kathy