horton@reed.UUCP (Nike Horton) (11/12/87)
An article in today's Oregonian entitled "HOUSE OKs POLL-CLOSING TIME" might be of interest to vendors concerned about keeping daylight savings time in synch. The background of the bill concerns the disparity in poll closing times during presidential elections, which caused problems in 1980, when the news media predicted a winner before the polls had closed on the west coast. This may or may not have caused people not to vote, seeing that their vote had no effect since the result was already known. Unfortunately, fixing the problem is not easy. Muzzling the press is quite rightfully looked down upon by the ACLU and others. Keeping the polls open late on the east coast is expensive, and closing them early on the west isn't fair to people who have to work. So those clever legislators of ours came up with a new twist: (reprinted from the Portland Oregonian, November 11, 1987, by David Whitney) ... The legislation would set a 9pm Eastern Standard Time closing for polls across the country. Polls in the Central Time Zone would close at 8pm, and in the Mountain Time Zone at 7pm. Because a 6pm poll closing along the West Coast was considered too early to accomodate after-work voting, the bill would EXTEND DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TIME TWO WEEKS DURING PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEARS IN THE PACIFIC TIME ZONE, meaning polls there would close at 7pm. While this certainly hasn't become law (the Senate has not acted upon it yet) it might test the tolerance of current time zone configurations to handle different rules for different years. Nike -- Nicholas/Nike Horton former system manager Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard horton@reed.uucp horton@harvard.harvard.edu
johnm@auscso.UUCP (11/12/87)
Why doesn't Congress just abolish Daylight Savings Time? I like it being
daylight when I wake up, and I don't like it being daylight until 8:30 or
so at night. Plus, computers (Unix) get confused when they are told the
rules and then some Politicos go and change them. Well... my system time
is GMT now, so they can change all they want, I'll just have to edit the
TZ in my .profile. Anybody else tired of the changes to DST lately?
Anybody wish it would go away?
--
John B. Meaders, Jr. 1114 Camino La Costa #3083, Austin, TX 78752
ATT: Voice: +1 (512) 451-5038 Data: +1 (512) 371-0550
UUCP: ...!ut-ngp!auscso!jclyde!john
\johnmmelvin@ji.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Melvin) (11/12/87)
In article <7708@reed.UUCP> horton@reed.UUCP (Nike Horton) writes:
[details of House plan deleted]
I find this plan utterly absurd. The House has proposed a ridiculous
solution to a non-problem. First, it boggles the mind to imagine the
confusion that would be caused in those two weeks with the east and west
coasts only two hours apart. And for what? If you imagine in your wildest
dreams that the presidential election will ever be decided on one vote
you are a fool. The motivation to participate in such a mass event
transcends the desire to individually have an effect on the outcome. We
do it because we believe in the democratic process, because we believe that
participation is important, etc., not because we think our individual vote
is going to sway the election. Remember when John Anderson was running for
president? People said: "I would vote for him if I thought he had a chance,
but since he doesn't, I won't because I want my vote to count." My response
was: Don't you understand, you fool, your vote is not going to *count* in
that sense anyway? I say that anyone who decides not to vote because a
presidential candidate has already conceded or because networks have already
projected a winner doesn't deserve any consideration. Let us hope that the
House can find better things to do than waste effort on this "problem" and
let us hope that the Senate has more sense than to adopt such an
ill-conceived idea.
----
Steve Melvin
melvin@ji.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP
----cruff@scdpyr.UUCP (Craig Ruff) (11/13/87)
In article <717@auscso.UUCP> johnm@auscso.UUCP (John B. Meaders, Jr.) writes: > ... Anybody else tired of the changes to DST lately? >Anybody wish it would go away? I never understood the rationale behind Daylight Savings Time myself. If people wanted more daylight hours, just get up earlier, right? And as far as school children safety (surely an important issue) goes, why not just move the starting and/or ending times of classes? Another thing, I've never understood why the farmers are always upset with DST. Anyone care to elaborate? Or maybe work hours should be structured so that you work longer during the winter when it is dark, and get more hours off during the summer when it is light and warm. Of course, people would be too confused if everyone used GMT :-) -- Craig Ruff NCAR INTERNET: cruff@scdpyr.UCAR.EDU (303) 497-1211 P.O. Box 3000 CSNET: cruff@ncar.CSNET Boulder, CO 80307 UUCP: cruff@scdpyr.UUCP
swh@hpsmtc1.HP.COM (Steve Harrold) (11/13/87)
Re: Changing DST rules Tsk-tsk. Life is so tough for the keepers of DST algorithms. Imagine what a keeper of a payroll program has to contend with??? :-) --------------------- Steve Harrold ...hplabs!hpsmtc1!swh HPG200/13 (408) 447-5580 ---------------------
msb@sq.UUCP (11/14/87)
[This is definitely off-topic for the group; redirect followups elsewhere!] What *I* want to know is why the people operating the polls can't simply be required to keep the counts confidential until the last poll has closed in the last time zone. Either seal and guard the ballot boxes / voting machines, or seal and guard the room with the people in it. Including suitable security, of course. Heck, you people in that little country south of the border only HAVE 4 time zones -- so the longest time delay would be 3 hours. Is that so bad? By the way, Canada has taken the other route -- here, broadcasting of results from more easterly time zones is not allowed until the polls in the broadcaster's zone have closed. It doesn't seem an unreasonable method to me...freedoms are not absolute...but I'd like the above better. Mark Brader, Toronto "Don't be silly -- send it to Canada" utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com -- British postal worker
dave@spool.wisc.edu (Dave Cohrs) (11/14/87)
In article <207@scdpyr.UUCP> cruff@scdpyr.UUCP (Craig Ruff) writes: >Another thing, I've never understood why the farmers are always upset with >DST. Anyone care to elaborate? It confuses the cows when the farmer comes in early (other animals too, but that's what I remember, and besides, this is the Cow State). Why does the farmer come in early? Because the milk tanker comes an hour earlier. Dave Cohrs +1 608 262-6617 UW-Madison Computer Sciences Department dave@cs.wisc.edu ...!{harvard,ihnp4,rutgers,ucbvax}!uwvax!dave
garrett@udel.EDU (Joel Garrett) (11/14/87)
In article <207@scdpyr.UUCP> cruff@scdpyr.UUCP (Craig Ruff) writes: ... >Another thing, I've never understood why the farmers are always upset with >DST. Anyone care to elaborate? ... >-- >Craig Ruff NCAR INTERNET: cruff@scdpyr.UCAR.EDU >(303) 497-1211 P.O. Box 3000 CSNET: cruff@ncar.CSNET > Boulder, CO 80307 UUCP: cruff@scdpyr.UUCP I think it has something to do with the farm animals (ie chickens and cows) adjusting to the shift in times. Joel arpa: garrett@udel.edu
retrac@titan.rice.edu (John Carter) (11/14/87)
Sender: In article <717@auscso.UUCP> johnm@auscso.UUCP (John B. Meaders, Jr.) writes: >Why doesn't Congress just abolish Daylight Savings Time? I like it being >daylight when I wake up, and I don't like it being daylight until 8:30 or >so at night. Personally, I wish they'd institute DST year round (i.e., shift us one hour out of synch always). I could care less if the sun is up when I have to get up and come in to school - I'm more concerned with it being up later so I can enjoy myself in the sun (soccer, softball, whatever). I know quite a few people that feel this way. The only other person who I know that doesn't like DST is my mother, whose opinions don't matter anyway :-). >Plus, computers (Unix) get confused when they are told the >rules and then some Politicos go and change them. Ah, but permanently installing DST would make it just as easy to program (not that I see that as important). :-) John Carter Rice University =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=* * UUCP: {Backbone or Internet site}!rice!retrac oo = = ARPA: retrac@rice.edu < * * CSNET: retrac@rice.edu U - Bleh. = =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
rick@svedberg.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller) (11/15/87)
In article <21745@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>, melvin@ji.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Melvin) writes: > > I find this plan utterly absurd. The House has proposed a ridiculous > solution to a non-problem. First, it boggles the mind to imagine the > confusion that would be caused in those two weeks with the east and west > coasts only two hours apart. And for what? If you imagine in your wildest > dreams that the presidential election will ever be decided on one vote > you are a fool. The motivation to participate in such a mass event > transcends the desire to individually have an effect on the outcome. We > do it because we believe in the democratic process, because we believe that > participation is important, etc., not because we think our individual vote > is going to sway the election. The problem is not with the presidential election per se. You are probably correct that one individual vote will not effect that race (or one state). The problem is with the local elections. In the 1980 election, when Carter conceeded before the poll closed on the west coast, there was a significiant drop-off when he did so as well as when the networks announced Reagan was elected. This (as I remember) did change serveral races (at least according to the losers). In a presidential election, the draw of the president's election will bring people in and if they decide that they will not effect the race, they will not vote and in this case, they will not vote for the lower ballot as well. I am not sure that proposed plan will do what the Congress desires, but the attempt needs to be made. In local races, one vote can (and has) effected the outcome. Richard H. Miller Email: rick@svedburg.bcm.tmc.edu Head, System Support Voice: (713)799-4511 Baylor College of Medicine US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H Houston, Texas 77030
vrs@littlei.UUCP (Vincent R. Slyngstad) (11/16/87)
In article <7708@reed.UUCP> horton@reed.UUCP (Nike Horton) writes: ... >time in synch. The background of the bill concerns the disparity in >poll closing times during presidential elections, which caused problems in >1980, when the news media predicted a winner before the polls had closed >on the west coast. This may or may not have caused people not to vote, >seeing that their vote had no effect since the result was already known. >Unfortunately, fixing the problem is not easy. Muzzling the press is quite >rightfully looked down upon by the ACLU and others. Keeping the polls open >late on the east coast is expensive, and closing them early on the west >isn't fair to people who have to work. So those clever legislators of >ours came up with a new twist: ... Isn't a better solution to this problem to stagger the COUNTING rather than the voting? That way the press gets to release the information as soon as it exists, but the government can assure fairness (assuming for the moment that fairness is a goal of the government)? Go, inews! Go! Go, inews! Go! Go, inews! Go! Go, inews! Go! Go, inews! Go! Go, inews! Go! Go, inews! Go! -- Vincent R. Slyngstad UNIX Evaluation Engineering Intel Corporation (littlei!vrs)
roger@celtics.UUCP (Roger B.A. Klorese) (11/16/87)
In article <1987Nov13.213920.14998@sq.uucp> msb@sq.UUCP (Mark Brader) writes: > >What *I* want to know is why the people operating the polls can't simply >be required to keep the counts confidential until the last poll has closed >in the last time zone. The problem is not with the *official* results; these could be restricted from release easily. The problem is with the news media calling election results based on exit polls and other "research". People have conceded elections before one real vote count was released... -- ///==\\ (Your message here...) /// Roger B.A. Klorese - CELERITY (Northeast Area) \\\ 40 Speen St. Framingham, MA 01701 USA +1 617 872-1552 \\\==// celtics!roger@necntc.NEC.COM - necntc!celtics!roger
res@ihlpe.ATT.COM (Rich Strebendt @ AT&T-C/IS (IW); formerly) (11/16/87)
In article <717@auscso.UUCP>, johnm@auscso.UUCP (John B. Meaders) writes: > Why doesn't Congress just abolish Daylight Savings Time? I like it being > daylight when I wake up, and I don't like it being daylight until 8:30 or > so at night. NO NO NO I like daylight as late as possible so I can get things done outside after I get home from work. Yardwork in the dark is the pits. I don't care if it is dark in the morning -- my eyes don't really open until 10am anyway! > Plus, computers (Unix) get confused when they are told the > rules and then some Politicos go and change them. Let's abolish POLITICOS then ... or come up with more adapable (not hard-coded) software. > Well... my system time > is GMT now, so they can change all they want, I'll just have to edit the > TZ in my .profile. Anybody else tired of the changes to DST lately? > Anybody wish it would go away? Sounds like a reasonable approach for a private system. As I said, though, it is STANDARD (not DST) time that I wish would go away. KEEP THOSE CLOCKS SET ON DAYLIGHT/SUMMER TIME!!!! Rich Strebendt ...!ihnp4![iwsl6|ihlpe|ihaxa]!res
jpn@teddy.UUCP (11/16/87)
>Several earlier articles about Congress fiddling with DST to keep elections >from being affected by the mass media. Excuse me for being dense, but as long as Congress is making laws, why don't they simply make it illegal to broadcast any election results until the polls are closed? Word-of-mouth is OK, only mass media need be affected (Radio, TV, NewsPapers). If they make it a treasonable offense, maybe we'll get a chance to shoot some of those stupid broadcasters! Perhaps this discussion should move to *.politics
rees@apollo.uucp (Jim Rees) (11/17/87)
Another thing, I've never understood why the farmers are always upset with
DST. Anyone care to elaborate?
Don't know about modern corporate farmers, but the farmers I knew when
I was growing up didn't use clocks. They got up a little before sunrise
and went to bed when the work was done.
When you are on sun time, and everyone else goes onto daylight time,
it appears to you that the rest of the world is now doing everything
an hour earlier than they used to (because their clocks tell them it
is now an hour later than it used to). So if you run into town after
a hard day in the fields, you find that the store has already closed.
I notice the same effect in my commute to work. I have a strong tendency
to staying on sun time. As spring progresses, the traffic gets lighter
every day in the morning, because people are leaving for work later
every day (with respect to sun time). Then suddenly, one day, everyone
starts leaving for work an hour earlier than they did the week before,
and traffic is heavy again. What a drag. But my big objection is to
keeping track of when the switch is, and changing my clocks, and trying
to figure out how it affects my schedule. I guess if I worked a 9-5
job and were forced onto clock time, the confusion wouldn't be as bad.brent@questar.QUESTAR.MN.ORG (Nordquist) (11/18/87)
In article <703@louie.udel.EDU> garrett@udel.EDU (Joel Garrett) writes: > > In article <207@scdpyr.UUCP> cruff@scdpyr.UUCP (Craig Ruff) writes: > >Another thing, I've never understood why the farmers are always upset with > >DST. Anyone care to elaborate? > > I think it has something to do with the farm animals (ie chickens and cows) > adjusting to the shift in times. That's always been the argument given to me, and I always wondered why they couldn't just gradually shift back. Scenario: a farmer normally gets up to milk the cows at 5:00 A.M. The morning after DST ends, he gets up at 4:10 A.M., which is 5:10 A.M. from the "old time," and he's only 10 minutes late. Getting up 10 minutes later each morning would put everything back on schedule within 6 days. I lived in Indiana for 5 years; the Hoosiers don't go on DST, which makes everything terribly confusing. (For example, during the summer, the TV programs are on at a different time than the rest of the year.) --- brent@questar.mn.org {amdahl,ihnp4}!meccts!questar!brent
riddle@woton.UUCP (11/18/87)
<gripe> <curmudgeon> <growl> I don't think the habits of chickens have anything to do with computers. Could this discussion be taken somewhere else (maybe talk.politics.misc)?
loverso@encore.UUCP (John LoVerso) (11/18/87)
If they much up Daylight Savings on the wast just for voting, what do they intend on doing for people in Alaska and Hawaii? John LoVerso
hdunne@amethyst.ma.arizona.edu (whatsisname) (11/19/87)
In article <447@questar.QUESTAR.MN.ORG> brent@questar.QUESTAR.MN.ORG (Nordquist) writes: }I lived in Indiana for 5 years; the Hoosiers don't go on DST, which }makes everything terribly confusing. (For example, during the summer, }the TV programs are on at a different time than the rest of the year.) Arizona as a whole does not observe DST, but some municipalities and Indian tribes do. Makes things pretty complicated, especially with some counties observing DST and some towns within them ignoring it. I heard that the reason the state sticks to standard time year-round is something to do with minimizing smog in Phoenix. Sounds wierd, but who knows... Hugh Dunne | ...{cmcl2,ihnp4,seismo!noao}!arizona!amethyst!hdunne Dept. of Math. | Phone: | {amethyst.ma.arizona.edu} Univ. of Arizona | +1 602 621 4766 | hdunne@{ arizrvax.bitnet } Tucson AZ 85721 | +1 602 621 6893 | { rvax.ccit.arizona.edu }
parker@epiwrl.UUCP (11/19/87)
In article <4474@teddy.UUCP> jpn@teddy.UUCP (John P. Nelson) writes: >Excuse me for being dense, but as long as Congress is making laws, why >don't they simply make it illegal to broadcast any election results >until the polls are closed? Word-of-mouth is OK, only mass media need >be affected (Radio, TV, NewsPapers). Congress can't change the Constitution that easily (thank goodness). Ever heard of the First Admendment?
russ@hpldola.HP.COM (Russell Johnston) (11/20/87)
> Arizona as a whole does not observe DST, but some municipalities and Indian > tribes do. Makes things pretty complicated, especially with some counties > observing DST and some towns within them ignoring it. I lived in Arizona for 5 years and it was very confusing -- to be in the Mountain time zone in the winter and in Pacific time zone in the summer. TheReservations are on federal land so they did observe Daylight time even though the rest of the state did not. > I heard that the reason > the state sticks to standard time year-round is something to do with minimizing > smog in Phoenix. Sounds wierd, but who knows... That's very interesting, I have heard that Colorado is considering DAYLIGHT savings time year round to minimize smog in Denver.
john@hpcvla.UUCP (11/20/87)
<<<<< < If they much up Daylight Savings on the wast just for voting, what do they < intend on doing for people in Alaska and Hawaii? < < John LoVerso ---------- The extra hour of daylight that you get in the summer is very important to Alaska because it gives them 25 hours of sunshine per day. I think they are more worried about the international date line than they are about time zones. John Eaton !hplabs!hp-pcd!john
snoopy@doghouse.gwd.tek.com (Snoopy) (11/20/87)
In article <1987Nov13.213920.14998@sq.uucp> msb@sq.UUCP (Mark Brader) writes: > What *I* want to know is why the people operating the polls can't simply > be required to keep the counts confidential until the last poll has closed > in the last time zone. Because all the congresscritters want to know if they have another n years at the public trough, and they want to know as soon as possible. > Heck, you people in that little country > south of the border only HAVE 4 time zones -- so the longest time delay > would be 3 hours. Is that so bad? I assume you are referring to the USA. The US has more than 4 time zones, consider Hawaii. The obvious solution is just what you suggest, to have all polls keep results confidential until the last poll closes. So the critters have to wait a few hours, not a bad tradeoff to get a fair election. Daylight savings time is stupid. There is no rule that we must work 9-5 or whatever. If you want to work earlier/later then just do it. No need to screw up all the clocks. To the person who posted the crack about feeling sorry for the people who had to maintain the code: Changing the code isn't all that hard. The problem is getting the fix to all those machines out in the field. And for what? The whim of Congress, nothing more. Snoopy tektronix!doghouse.gwd!snoopy snoopy@doghouse.gwd.tek.com NFS: No Frigging Security
leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) (11/22/87)
In article <11630006@hpsmtc1.HP.COM> swh@hpsmtc1.HP.COM (Steve Harrold) writes:
<Re: Changing DST rules
<
<Tsk-tsk. Life is so tough for the keepers of DST algorithms. Imagine what
<a keeper of a payroll program has to contend with??? :-)
Try being a worker on a schedule where you work that night. It's okay having
your shift an hour shorter (except for the loss of money). But having it an
hour _longer_ is no fun (and they didn't pay overtime!)
--
Leonard Erickson ...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard
CIS: [70465,203]
"I used to be a hacker. Now I'm a 'microcomputer specialist'.
You know... I'd rather be a hacker."blm@cxsea.UUCP (Brian Matthews) (11/23/87)
Snoopy (snoopy@doghouse.gwd.tek.com) writes: |In article <1987Nov13.213920.14998@sq.uucp> msb@sq.UUCP (Mark Brader) writes: |> What *I* want to know is why the people operating the polls can't simply |> be required to keep the counts confidential until the last poll has closed |> in the last time zone. |... |The obvious solution is just what you suggest, to have all polls keep |results confidential until the last poll closes. So the critters have |to wait a few hours, not a bad tradeoff to get a fair election. That doesn't solve the problem. Much of the network's information is from exit polls. They stand outside of polling places and ask voters who they voted for as they leave. -- Brian L. Matthews "A man with one watch knows ...{mnetor,uw-beaver!ssc-vax}!cxsea!blm what time it is; a man with +1 206 251 6811 two watches isn't so sure." Computer X Inc. - a division of Motorola New Enterprises
leivian@dover.UUCP (11/25/87)
In article <717@auscso.UUCP> johnm@auscso.UUCP (John B. Meaders, Jr.) writes: >Why doesn't Congress just abolish Daylight Savings Time? >...TZ in my .profile. Anybody else tired of the changes to DST lately? >Anybody wish it would go away? We (in Arizona) don't mess with DST and have no problems, I like not having to change clocks, (we still have to be aware of everybody else though) -- Bob Leivian Motorola, Dover Shores (CAD Support) 602-994-6778 ...{mcdsun, sun}!sunburn!dover!leivian Mesa, AZ
hdunne@amethyst.ma.arizona.edu ( :-) (11/25/87)
To elsie!ado:
[Sorry for posting this, but it kept bouncing when I tried to mail it]
I tried to find a reference to DST observance in Arizona, but couldn't come
up with anything. Someone else sent me mail mentioning some uniform time zone
legislation which was passed in the 60's, and which would supposedly forbid
the kind of patchwork system I described (which apparently existed all over
the country during the 19th century). Unfortunately I didn't save the letter.
When I posted my article, I was relying mainly on my memory of a Boston Globe
article I read last year before moving out here. The information may be out
of date. However, I've heard from another source that some Indian tribes
observe DST.
Hugh Dunne | ...{cmcl2,ihnp4,seismo!noao}!arizona!amethyst!hdunne
Dept. of Math. | Phone: | {amethyst.ma.arizona.edu}
Univ. of Arizona | +1 602 621 4766 | hdunne@{ arizrvax.bitnet }
Tucson AZ 85721 | +1 602 621 6893 | { rvax.ccit.arizona.edu }ben@hpldola.HP.COM (Benjamin Ellsworth) (11/27/87)
I think that DST is STUPID! I would like it to just go away. Who needs it? Why keep it? There are no good answers to those questions. To the poster, and others, who feel that mangling the clocks further in the name of "a fair election." Just how "fair" is an election which can be swayed by the network polls? ----- Benjamin Ellsworth ...hplabs!hpldola!ben
riddle@woton.UUCP (Prentiss Riddle ) (12/01/87)
This discussion long since ceased to have anything to do with computers. Please let it die!