daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (08/23/88)
in article <3144@teemc.UUCP>, wayne@teemc.UUCP (//ichael R. //ayne) says: > Keywords: BYTE, subscription, letter, fed up, POWER USERS > In article <11704@oberon.USC.EDU> mlinar@eve.usc.edu (Mitch Mlinar) writes: >>In article <2815@teemc.UUCP> wayne@teemc.UUCP (I) write >> [ my bitching and moaning about how Byte has abandonded its readers deleted ] > ->They don't know that some of us feel that a "small system" is a 16Mhz > ->68020 with 4 Meg of RAM, 700 Meg of hard disk, and 16 serial ports running > ->Unix (like my home machine). >>you say all your friends run UN*X at home, and then you describe this machine >>that would be the envy of any hobbyist and cost a good $7k (price I just >>dreamed up) that YOU have at home. Also, you don't need to start out with a machine like that. First, get an A2000, monitor, 40 meg hard disk with controller. A year or two later, you could add an A2620 or similar 68020 board for about the same cost as your inital A2000. Now you're a 68020 system capable of running UNIX. A multi-serial card would run you another $200-$300, and you'd need two of 'em in your machine to get all those serial lines, but it can be done. You can add a high capacity drive or two to the SCSI controller next year, and maybe UNIX if you like it. Another high capacity drive, and you're up to about what Michael's got at home. Not cheap, but you eased into it. And you still have 2 Amiga slots free. > I thought it was a good deal at the time and I still do. A comparable Amiga system would have run you more, so I think I agree. > All of us felt that $5K was a great price for what we were getting. > The machine is FAST. That's not out of line with what lots of people spend on their hobbies or pleasure activities. Compare it with a small boat, or a classic car, or travelling (priced winter trips to the Bahamas or Hawaii recently; that's where I've been wasting my money...). And most other hobbies don't have a direct influence on your career. >>I think you are in the small minority --- for now. True. Me too (I've got something in the same performance ballpark at home, sans a few serial ports and a bit of disk capacity). And I certainly don't expect 16MHz 68020 system to always run $6000, or $4000 for that matter, either. > Michael R. Wayne --- TMC & Associates --- wayne@teemc.uucp > INTERNET: wayne%teemc.uucp@umix.cc.umich.edu uunet!umix!teemc!wayne -- Dave Haynie "The 32 Bit Guy" Commodore-Amiga "The Crew That Never Rests" {ihnp4|uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: D-DAVE H BIX: hazy "I can't relax, 'cause I'm a Boinger!"
rob@rtmvax.UUCP (Robert Talley) (08/27/88)
In article <3144@teemc.UUCP> wayne@teemc.UUCP (/\/\ichael R. \/\/ayne) writes: >In article <11704@oberon.USC.EDU> mlinar@eve.usc.edu (Mitch Mlinar) writes: >>In article <2815@teemc.UUCP> wayne@teemc.UUCP (I) write >> [ my bitching and moaning about how Byte has abandonded its readers deleted ] >> >->They don't know that some of us feel that a "small system" is a 16Mhz >->68020 with 4 Meg of RAM, 700 Meg of hard disk, and 16 serial ports running >->Unix (like my home machine). > > It depends on what you want to do with your money. There is also >used equipment available. Sun 2 systems are not that expensive. There >was a deal where used Altos systems went up for sale a while back and then >there was the 3B1 (too slow for my tastes but it's a start). > I tend to agree with Michael on this point. The "second-hand" commercial market is a great place to get a solid machine at a reasonable price. I picked up a DEC-MicroVax-I and have less than $3800 invested in the main system. I have invested much more than that, over time, in peripherals such as additional disks and modems (telebit). Second hand computers aren't for the weak at heart hobbyists though, since one must generally be familiar with the hardware to tell if you are getting a good deal, but the equipment is out there, now, more than ever. My biggest expenditure was getting the system properly licensed. Sure, it's only a MV-I, but you can bet I'm always on the lookout for an upgrade kit to bring it to a MV-II. I think Michael made a very good point about "what you spend you money on". Many co-workers/associates of mine have larger systems (plural) at home instead of boats, sports cars, and monster sound-systems. It also helps when your work exposes you to such equipment and justifies ownership of same. I originally got the MV-I to assist with my work from my home and wound up running a semi-public system with it when it's not crunching numbers for work. I don't feel, however, that BYTE or any other journal could even possibly begin to address users in this category. There are many "vendor" related journals that help out quite a bit. One in particular (for my case) is DEC-Professional, which is a free subscription to those qualified. This publication has also gone somewhat towards the way of BYTE but still contains many good articles on "what's inside your machine" and also contains many "classified" ads relating to the vendors equipment etc. It does take a bit more searching, and a lot more dedication to find peripherals and expansion hardware that fits into my personal budget, but the results are generally very rewarding, and the learning process involved is always enjoyable. It may not be for everyone, but for those who are willing to spend the time and effort, the rewards vastly exceed those obtained by running down to "Crazy Phillip's" and grabbing something off the shelf. -- Robert Talley: RTmVax Semi-Public UNIX/USENET System Orlando, Florida UUCP: {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd}!peora!rtmvax!rob
leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) (08/30/88)
In article <3144@teemc.UUCP> wayne@teemc.UUCP (/\/\ichael R. \/\/ayne) writes:
<->They don't know that some of us feel that a "small system" is a 16Mhz
<->68020 with 4 Meg of RAM, 700 Meg of hard disk, and 16 serial ports running
<->Unix (like my home machine).
<>
<>you say all your friends run UN*X at home, and then you describe this machine
<>that would be the envy of any hobbyist and cost a good $7k (price I just
<>dreamed up) that YOU have at home.
<
< Well, I described the system to my coworkers (at the time I was
<on contract to Ford Motor) and 3 of them also purchased the same machine.
<These were the only people in the building that I thought were serious about
<Unix, they all worked for Ford and none of them were management types
<(just so you know that they had to scrape a bit to come up with the money)
<All of them had some sort of system at home already, CP/M, Unix, Amiga,
<CoCo, Os-9, etc. Me, I had a bunch (3) Cromemco systems and Cromix was
<not cutting it anymore. All of us felt that $5K was a great price for what
<we were getting. The machine is FAST. One of the other purchasers was the
<instigator on getting the 380 Meg drives, all four of us bought one. Several
<of them are making noises about buying a second soon. The computer users
<you know are not as serious about their equipment as the ones I know.
<
< I consider my system to be slightly advanced for the home but not
<by that much. It takes a considerable amount of hardware to be able to
<do useful work. Other people have 20-25 MHz 386 machines running Unix,
<by the time they get done the cost is probably around $5K also. My original
<point is valid, these ARE being used as home systems but the publishers
<are ignoring us.
The publishers are ignoring you because the number of people that can
afford $10k over a couple of years is too limited to support a magazine!
I make less than $25k/yr. But that still means that my income is *above*
the median! Few people can afford to invest more than they pay in taxes
on a computer!
I wish I could afford a 386 or 680x0. I'm making do with an Xt clone...
Yes, you can get good deals, but not everyone can write off their
previous equipment. Out of $4-6k worth of equipment accumulated over
the last 7 years, the only stuff that is still usable with my current
gear are the printers, and they asre crippled by not being "standard".
Yeah, the stuff still works, but the resale value is zip. It's worth
more to me as smart terminals and print servers than I could sell them
for. Such are the perils of committing to the wrong system at the start.
<sigh>
Given the fact that expensive computers are less popular as toys than
expensive cars, I doubt that anything over $5k will *ever* be considered
a "home" system. That doesn't mean that no one will use them at home, just
that it will be unusual.
--
Leonard Erickson ...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard
CIS: [70465,203]
"I used to be a hacker. Now I'm a 'microcomputer specialist'.
You know... I'd rather be a hacker."gary@percival.UUCP (Gary Wells) (08/31/88)
In article <1031@bucket.UUCP> leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) writes: >In article <3144@teemc.UUCP> wayne@teemc.UUCP (/\/\ichael R. \/\/ayne) writes: ><>you say all your friends run UN*X at home, and then you describe this machine ><>that would be the envy of any hobbyist and cost a good $7k (price I just ><>dreamed up) that YOU have at home. > >Given the fact that expensive computers are less popular as toys than >expensive cars, I doubt that anything over $5k will *ever* be considered >a "home" system. That doesn't mean that no one will use them at home, just >that it will be unusual. Sorry, Leonard, but I'm pretty sure you're wrong. Just count the number of boxes running *nix in the Portland area that I know you know of, then double that (at least) for the ones you don't know of. I'm just talking about the ones in peoples homes, not places like Reed or Tek. _I_ know of about 10-20, depending on who's up and whether you count multiple machines at a single site. The _typical_ user, you are correct, will always be using whatever is currently popular, be it C-64, Apple, or IBM. And those machines won't disappear, and will continue to serve their owners in some capacity. But the serious users will find a way to have a serious system, with multi-megabytes of disk and multiple I/O ports. *nix looks to be the most serious contender for an OS for these systems for the near future. (I'm not saying it is the best. I've seen ads for O/S's that sounded "better", but I'm never actually seen one of those in the field). I don't intend to strain my arm too much patting ourselves on the back for being "serious" users, but it is still the case that we, relatively few, will continue to set the standards by which all other systems will be judged. Remember when MS-DOS was new? Remember all the hoopla about how it was "like *nix, with pipes and directories"? It turned out that "like" has a lot of slop in it, but my point is still valid. They were using *nix as the comparison standard. I don't think Microsoft would be so paranoid about *nix, if _they_ didn't think it was the reference, too. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Still working on _natural_ intelligence. gary@percival (...!tektronix!percival!gary)
chip@ateng.uucp (Chip Salzenberg) (09/03/88)
According to leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson): >Given the fact that expensive computers are less popular as toys than >expensive cars, I doubt that anything over $5k will *ever* be considered >a "home" system. That doesn't mean that no one will use them at home, just >that it will be unusual. Who said anything about $5k? A decent Xenix/286 or Microport system can be had for $3k. -- Chip Salzenberg <chip@ateng.uu.net> or <uunet!ateng!chip> A T Engineering My employer may or may not agree with me. The urgent leaves no time for the important.
daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) (09/07/88)
in article <1988Sep2.181008.6537@ateng.uucp>, chip@ateng.uucp (Chip Salzenberg) says: > Keywords: BYTE, subscription, letter, fed up, POWER USERS > Who said anything about $5k? A decent Xenix/286 or Microport system can > be had for $3k. The thread was talking about machines significantly more powerful than an AT box. It was also a good point on what you can get used if you put together your own system -- your $3k AT system isn't going come with support for 16 users, 4-8 megs of RAM, and 700+ megs of hard disk space, like the mentioned 68020 UNIX system. And even if you add all that extra stuff, you're still stuck with a 16 bit machine running 16 bit UNIX. What's a base priced '386 UNIX machine going to run? > Chip Salzenberg <chip@ateng.uu.net> or <uunet!ateng!chip> > A T Engineering My employer may or may not agree with me. -- Dave Haynie "The 32 Bit Guy" Commodore-Amiga "The Crew That Never Rests" {ihnp4|uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: D-DAVE H BIX: hazy "I can't relax, 'cause I'm a Boinger!"
bill@proxftl.UUCP (T. William Wells) (09/13/88)
In article <4664@cbmvax.UUCP> daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes:
: What's
: a base priced '386 UNIX machine going to run?
I am buying a 386 right now, and so I have an actual quote in
my hand:
For a Wyse 386, 2 Meg RAM, VGA & color monitor, 80MB Seagate, sales
tax and a hefty discount because they like our company: $5600.
Add in a 2400 baud modem for, I guess, $200.
And a UNIX for something around $1000. (Less if you
use Microport, more if you use SCO.)
Call it $7000.
Definitely not catfood money.
---
Bill
novavax!proxftl!billbill@carpet.WLK.COM (Bill Kennedy) (09/15/88)
In article <743@proxftl.UUCP> bill@proxftl.UUCP (T. William Wells) writes: >In article <4664@cbmvax.UUCP> daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie) writes: [ price info about a Wyse 386, software naked ] >And a UNIX for something around $1000. (Less if you >use Microport, more if you use SCO.) That simply isn't so. I paid cash money for each and item for item, feature for feature, SCO is more stable and economical than Microport. I can speak nearly without prejudice about both (have bought each) and across the board SCO is less expensive. The least expensive "real" System V is from AT&T (that's what I use). For $700 or so you get unlimited runtime and development which is a lot less than Microport or SCO. For another $500 you get Simul-Task '386 (aka VP/ix) and it works, unlike Microport Merge/386 (for roughly the same money). If you don't need DOS, you can get a perfectly healthy UNIX, documented, with support, unlimited logins for a lot less than either Microport or SCO. The remarks about "healthy", "documented", "support", and "unlimited logins" were *NOT* directed at SCO, they have all of that. -- Bill Kennedy Internet: bill@ssbn.WLK.COM Usenet: { killer | att | rutgers | uunet!bigtex }!ssbn!bill
dkhusema@faui44.UUCP (Dirk Husemann (Inf4 - hiwi),0.058I4,7908,09131-302036) (09/26/88)
From article <4664@cbmvax.UUCP>, by daveh@cbmvax.UUCP (Dave Haynie): > an AT box. It was also a good point on what you can get used if you put > together your own system -- your $3k AT system isn't going come with > support for 16 users, 4-8 megs of RAM, and 700+ megs of hard disk space, > like the mentioned 68020 UNIX system. And even if you add all that extra > stuff, you're still stuck with a 16 bit machine running 16 bit UNIX. What's > a base priced '386 UNIX machine going to run? > I'm planning on buying a '386 AT compatible machine to run UNIX SysVr3 on it. This is want I think I'll have to spend: 80386 machine with EGA Card and EGA monitor (800x600), 2 MB of memory, and 80 MB of hard disk, 5 1/4 floppy, 3 1/2 floppy, 101-keyboard, mouse: DM 8100.00 -> US$ 4200.00 Bell Technologies Unix SysVr3, unlimited user: US$ 225.00 All in all: ~ US$ 4500.00 or DM 8500.00 > -- > Dave Haynie "The 32 Bit Guy" Commodore-Amiga "The Crew That Never Rests" > {ihnp4|uunet|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh PLINK: D-DAVE H BIX: hazy > "I can't relax, 'cause I'm a Boinger!" ------------------ Smile, tomorrow will be worse! -------------- Email: dkhusema@immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de Or: {pyramid,unido}!fauern!faui44!dkhusema Mail: Dirk Husemann, Aufsess-Str. 19, D-8520 Erlangen, West Germany Phone: (Home) +49 9131 302036, (Business) +49 9131 857908 -- Beam me up, Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here! -- --------------- My opinions are mine, mine, mine ---------------