car@pte.UUCP (Chris Rende) (09/15/88)
In his book "The Unix Operating System" Kaare Christian mentions that Unix exists for the Z-80. This was a big suprise to me. I didn't know that Unix ran on any 8 bit CPU's. Does anyone know anything about Unix running on a Z-80? car. -- Christopher A. Rende Multics,DTSS,Shortwave,Scanners,StarTrek uunet!edsews!rphroy!pte!car TRS-80 Model I: Buy Sell Trade Motorola VME 1131 M68020 System V Release 2 v2.2 Precise Technology & Electronics, Inc.
friedl@vsi.UUCP (Stephen J. Friedl) (09/18/88)
In article <278@pte.UUCP>, car@pte.UUCP (Chris Rende) writes: > In his book "The Unix Operating System" Kaare Christian mentions that Unix > exists for the Z-80. This was a big suprise to me. I didn't know that Unix ran > on any 8 bit CPU's. > > Does anyone know anything about Unix running on a Z-80? My memory is a little fuzzy, but Morrow Designs [R.I.P.] had a banked Z80 box running a *v6* UNIX that I think was called `Micronix'. It must have been 1981-83, and they used v6 because they could make it fit in the limited memory. I've no clue on performance or anything like that. Morrow was a God in the Z80 world but he stayed in it too long when the IBM PC came out :-(. -- Steve Friedl V-Systems, Inc. +1 714 545 6442 3B2-kind-of-guy friedl@vsi.com {backbones}!vsi.com!friedl attmail!vsi!friedl ------------Nancy Reagan on conductance: "Just say mho"------------
peter@edsews.EDS.COM (Peter Zadrozny) (09/19/88)
In article <278@pte.UUCP>, car@pte.UUCP (Chris Rende) writes: > Does anyone know anything about Unix running on a Z-80? Years ago I worked with a series of Cromemco computers, they where Z-80 S-100 based machines and ran Cromix as their operating system. Cromix was a pretty good implementation of Unix even with the limitations imposed by the CPU. The requirements were one 64K bank for the OS and one 64K bank for every user (process). The multi-tasking multi-processing was achieved by bank switching. It was interesting to be able to run WordStar and dBase II in a "Unix" environment (since it had a CP/M emulator which resided on the top 3K of the corresponding bank). More interesting was experiencing the power a 4MHz Z-80 handling with little visible effect one secretary hacking the keyboard with WordStar, one clerk running a dBase II application, and myself compiling little C monsters. They also had a very good Basic compiler as well as a Basic based OS (a la RSTS-11). I do believe that Cromemco is still in business (I saw somebody in the SF Usenix sporting a badge with their name). They are based in Mountain View. BTW, most of the computerized TV weather reports use Cromemco Z-80 machines. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Zadrozny | UUCP: ...!uunet!edsews!peter Electronic Data Systems | peter@edsews.EDS.COM 1400 N. Woodward Av. | Voice: +1 313 645-4725 Bloomfield Hills, MI 48013 | Fax: +1 313 645-4824
markd@proxftl.UUCP (Mark Davidson) (09/19/88)
Years ago, the C Users Group talked about a Z-80 Unix-like operating system in one of their newsletters. (I don't know about now, but back then, you got a copy of all the back-issues when you joined; that's where I saw it) Unfortunately, I don't think it was ever released, as the author of the system was killed in a swimming or boating accident (I think). -- In real life: Mark E. Davidson uflorida!novavax!proxftl!markd Proximity Technology Inc., 3511 NE 22nd Ave, Ft. Lauderdale FL, 33308 #define STANDARD_DISCLAIMER <Quote construction site>
friedl@vsi.UUCP (Stephen J. Friedl) (09/20/88)
In article <790@proxftl.UUCP>, markd@proxftl.UUCP (Mark Davidson) writes: > > Years ago, the C Users Group talked about a Z-80 Unix-like operating system > in one of their newsletters. (I don't know about now, but back then, you got > a copy of all the back-issues when you joined; that's where I saw it) > Unfortunately, I don't think it was ever released, as the author of the > system was killed in a swimming or boating accident (I think). I am digging *way* back here, but I think this was the Mark operating system. I think the name was Ed Zeimba [??], a friend of Leor Zolman (creator of BDS C). I don't think it was ever finished :-(. Whatever happened to Leor? Steve -- Steve Friedl V-Systems, Inc. +1 714 545 6442 3B2-kind-of-guy friedl@vsi.com {backbones}!vsi.com!friedl attmail!vsi!friedl ------------Nancy Reagan on conductance: "Just say mho"------------
rlb@xanth.cs.odu.edu (Robert Lee Bailey) (09/20/88)
In article <278@pte.UUCP> car@pte.UUCP (Chris Rende) writes: >In his book "The Unix Operating System" Kaare Christian mentions that Unix >exists for the Z-80. This was a big suprise to me. I didn't know that Unix ran >on any 8 bit CPU's. > >Does anyone know anything about Unix running on a Z-80? > I, too, would be interested in Unix on a Z-80! (In my dreams, right?) ~r Bob Bailey
andrew@frip.gwd.tek.com (Andrew Klossner) (09/20/88)
[] "Years ago, the C Users Group talked about a Z-80 Unix-like operating system in one of their newsletters. (I don't know about now, but back then, you got a copy of all the back-issues when you joined; that's where I saw it) Unfortunately, I don't think it was ever released, as the author of the system was killed in a swimming or boating accident (I think)." This was the MARC system (I think that's the name ... elapsed time isn't good for brain cells). Scuttlebutt at the time had it that, upon the fellow's death, one of his acquaintances, a Los Angeles area consultant, swooped in on the grieving widow and talked her into selling him exclusive rights to the work in progress. He then spent years getting it in shape on a part-time basis, issuing periodic, tantalizing "it's almost done" notes to the net, until an un-backed-up hard disk crashed and all was lost. (The "swooping" part is single-source rumor. The rest is confirmed.) -=- Andrew Klossner (decvax!tektronix!tekecs!andrew) [UUCP] (andrew%tekecs.tek.com@relay.cs.net) [ARPA]
dbraun@cadavr.intel.com (Doug Braun ~) (09/20/88)
In article <278@pte.UUCP> car@pte.UUCP (Chris Rende) writes: >In his book "The Unix Operating System" Kaare Christian mentions that Unix >exists for the Z-80. This was a big suprise to me. I didn't know that Unix ran >on any 8 bit CPU's. I wrote one a couple of years ago. It is a totally from-scratch implementation of the Unix kernel for a 64K CP/M machine. It runs just fine on my machine, being able to support the 7th edition shell with no problems. I would be glad to mail the source code or post it to the net. It works like this: The kernel is in the top 32K, and a process exists in the bottom 32K. Process switching happens by total swapping. This arrangement is like the "Mini-Unix" that Bell Labs put out for the smallest PDP-11's a while back. Virtually all of the 7th Edition system calls, and most of its functionality are implemented. Here are the restrictions that I remember offhand: The debugger system call does not exist (but profiling does exist). The TTY driver is bare-bones and supports only one TTY. Inode numbers are 16 bits, so there can be only 32 Meg partitions. The seek system call uses the old 6th Edition arguments (no 32 bit arguments) The time and stime system calls use the MS-DOS format for times. Because of the total swapping, disk I/O is synchronous. There is no point running another process while one waits for disk I/O, since you would have to swap it in. The locks and semaphores needed to implement this are also not present. On the bright side, everything else seems to work fine. Execve, fork, wait, etc., all work correctly. The number of processes is limited only by table sizes (and your patience). Links, pipes, random file access, owner, and group permissions work correctly. The 4.2BSD stdio library was ported to the system. This was written to run on my custom-built hardware. There is no hardware memory management, just custom disk, tape (9-track!!), and serial I/O hardware. Of course, the system supports major and minor devices and character and block device tables, so adding in new drivers is not too hard. The kernel was completely written by me, but unfortunately I cannot legally distribute the shell, ed, cpp, tar, and 15 or so other utilities I ported to this system. It was compiled by the Q/C compiler (under CP/M) along with a ported version of cpp. Also, I was never able to get the C compiler to fit in 32K, but cpp, a patched version of the M80 assembler, and a linker written by me all run under the system. I also wrote some utilities such as fsck and ps that are very kernel-dependent. Most of the Minix programs would probably port to this system, though. If anybody would like to look at this stuff, let me know, and I will dig out the disks and figure out how to upload them. Doug Braun Intel Corp CAD 408 765-4279 / decwrl \ | hplabs | -| oliveb |- !intelca!mipos3!cadev4!dbraun | amd | \ qantel /
budden@tetra.NOSC.MIL (Rex A. Buddenberg) (09/22/88)
Doug, This looks really interesting. 1. Suggest you consider uploading to Simtel20 or similar where we can get at it. This is assuming, as you implied, that your work is for public domain. 2. What are implications for the follow-on Z-80 derivative chips like HD64180 and Z-280? How portable are we here? If you can make things work in a 64k RAM space, life ought to get easier if you can lay hands on more RAM... Somehow sounds like an awkward fit though until you get hardware memory management to take a lot of the load off your code...muse,muse,muse. Rex Buddenberg
markz@ssc.UUCP (Mark Zenier) (09/23/88)
In article <278@pte.UUCP>, car@pte.UUCP (Chris Rende) writes: > In his book "The Unix Operating System" Kaare Christian mentions that Unix > exists for the Z-80. This was a big suprise to me. I didn't know that Unix ran > on any 8 bit CPU's. > > Does anyone know anything about Unix running on a Z-80? Whitesmiths may have done IDRIS for the Z80.
cl@datlog.co.uk (Charles Lambert) (09/23/88)
In article <842@vsi.UUCP> friedl@vsi.UUCP (Stephen J. Friedl) writes: > >Morrow was a God in the Z80 world but he stayed in it too long when >the IBM PC came out :-(. He should've emigrated. Alan Sugar is still wringing cash out of the little monster in Europe :-) ---------- Charlie
davidsen@steinmetz.ge.com (William E. Davidsen Jr) (09/24/88)
In article <704@tetra.NOSC.MIL> budden@tetra.nosc.mil.UUCP (Rex A. Buddenberg) writes: | 2. What are implications for the follow-on Z-80 derivative chips | like HD64180 and Z-280? How portable are we here? If you can make | things work in a 64k RAM space, life ought to get easier if you can | lay hands on more RAM... Somehow sounds like an awkward fit though | until you get hardware memory management to take a lot of the load off | your code...muse,muse,muse. I hacked CP/M to live in an alternate memory bank (actually I ran it in the 2nd bank and had a faker in the main memory). Using that technique you could get more memory for UNIX and possibly run a lot more of it. That would allow you to have multiple processes, too, since there would be virtually no swap overhead. I don't know about i/o, I can't think of any *cheap* way to do it into an unselected bank. -- bill davidsen (wedu@ge-crd.arpa) {uunet | philabs}!steinmetz!crdos1!davidsen "Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -me
rusty@cadnetix.COM (Rusty) (09/24/88)
In article <2906@mipos3.intel.com> dbraun@cadavr.UUCP (Doug Braun ~) writes: .... >I wrote one a couple of years ago. It is a totally from-scratch implementation >of the Unix kernel for a 64K CP/M machine. It runs just fine on my machine, >being able to support the 7th edition shell with no problems. I would be >glad to mail the source code or post it to the net. > POST! POST! well, email if not enough people agree, but I seriously doubt that will happen. >The kernel was completely written by me, but unfortunately I cannot legally >distribute... Maybe we can figure a way around this? ----- Rusty Carruth UUCP: {uunet,boulder}!cadnetix!rusty DOMAIN: rusty@cadnetix.com Cadnetix Corp. (303) 444-8075x296 \ 5775 Flatiron Pkwy. \ Boulder, Co 80301 Radio: N7IKQ 'home': P.O.B. 461 \ Lafayette, CO 80026
jantypas@ucrmath.UUCP (John Antypas) (09/24/88)
>In article <278@pte.UUCP>, car@pte.UUCP (Chris Rende) writes: >> In his book "The Unix Operating System" Kaare Christian mentions that Unix >> exists for Z-80. This was a big suprise to me. I didn't know that Unix ran >> on any 8 bit CPU's. >> >> Does anyone know anything about Unix running on a Z-80? > >Whitesmiths may have done IDRIS for the Z80. Indeed they did, but I wouldn't exactly call it Unix. Our labs use Idris because we must, and the C alone is semi-Unix-like if you look at it just the right way. They rewrote litterally 90% of the libraries. Truly non-portable code!
friedl@vsi.UUCP (Stephen J. Friedl) (09/25/88)
In article <427@ucrmath.UUCP>, jantypas@ucrmath.UUCP (John Antypas) writes: > > > >Whitesmiths may have done IDRIS for the Z80. > > Indeed they did, but I wouldn't exactly call it Unix. Our labs use Idris > because we must, and the C alone is semi-Unix-like if you look at it > just the right way. They rewrote literally 90% of the libraries. Truly > non-portable code! In the early days, Whitesmiths felt they were In Charge of C programming. Above, `rewrote 90% of the libraries' means that the usage and function names were different as well. For example: putfmt("The number is %i\n", i); replaced your good old printf. After a time, they released a compatible library, but it was likely due to outrage. I have never in the meantime seen such a blatant example of gratuitous incompatibility. What is surprising is that this came from the man who cowrite _Elements of Programming Style_, P.J. Plauger. Sad. My memory is a bit dated on the details, corrections welcome. Steve -- Steve Friedl V-Systems, Inc. +1 714 545 6442 3B2-kind-of-guy friedl@vsi.com {backbones}!vsi.com!friedl attmail!vsi!friedl ------[I'm on vacation in Ohio from 26-Sep to 10-Oct 1988]----------
andrew@frip.gwd.tek.com (Andrew Klossner) (09/26/88)
[] "I have never in the meantime seen such a blatant example of gratuitous incompatibility. What is surprising is that this came from the man who cowrite _Elements of Programming Style_, P.J. Plauger." This discussion has overlooked the motivation of Unix incompatibility in Idris. Plauger and associates were scared that AT&T lawyers would shut them down under the trade secret laws because they had access to Unix source code before they formed Whitesmiths. The "galloping incompatibility" was an attempt to demonstrate that Idris was not a Unix rip-off. This was back in the days when the same company that sold Unix would hassle you about adding an unregistered extension phone, and the lowest-cost Unix license was $20,000 (no cheap binaries). I'd say their concern was justified. -=- Andrew Klossner (decvax!tektronix!tekecs!andrew) [UUCP] (andrew%tekecs.tek.com@relay.cs.net) [ARPA]
tom@rabbit1.UUCP (Tom Donohue) (09/29/88)
In article <865@vsi.UUCP>, friedl@vsi.UUCP (Stephen J. Friedl) writes: > In the early days, Whitesmiths felt they were In Charge of C > programming. Above, `rewrote 90% of the libraries' means that > the usage and function names were different as well. For example: > > putfmt("The number is %i\n", i); > > replaced your good old printf. After a time, they released a > compatible library, but it was likely due to outrage. At the time (~1979), I beleive Whitesmiths was afraid of incurring the wrath of AT&T. Copyrights and such. Perhaps they were overly cautious, or perhaps it was a valid concern. I don't know where I heard this, but it wasn't from Whitesmiths, so take it with a grain of salt. -- -- tom ...!{rutgers,uunet}!cbmvax!hutch!tom
root@nebulus.UUCP (Dennis S. Breckenridge) (09/29/88)
In article <2906@mipos3.intel.com>, dbraun@cadavr.intel.com (Doug Braun ~) writes: > In article <278@pte.UUCP> car@pte.UUCP (Chris Rende) writes: > >In his book "The Unix Operating System" Kaare Christian mentions that Unix > >exists for the Z-80. This was a big suprise to me. I didn't know that Unix ran > >on any 8 bit CPU's. > > If anybody would like to look at this stuff, let me know, and I will > dig out the disks and figure out how to upload them. > > Doug Braun Intel Corp CAD > 408 765-4279 > > / decwrl \ > | hplabs | > -| oliveb |- !intelca!mipos3!cadev4!dbraun > | amd | > \ qantel / I tried to send you mail directly but it bounced from mordor - joyce. Subject: UNIX Z80 Hi Doug, I seen you posting for the source for z80 UNIX (tm) and I am very interested in getting a copy. I should mention that I work for AT&T Canada I am in the National Technical Support area and can be reached at ...!attcan! dennis or here on my 6386 at home. I have several CP/M systems lying around here and it would be great fun to try and get UNIX running on at least one of them. I do not have any version 7 source. Thanks in advance -- ============================================================================== "A mind is a terrible thing to MAIL: Dennis S. Breckenridge waste!" 206 Poyntz Ave North York, Ontario M2N1J6 (416) 733-1696 UUCP: uunet!attcan!nebulus!dennis ICBM: 43 4 58 N / 87 55 52 W 50 megatons should do! ==============================================================================