ok@quintus.uucp (Richard A. O'Keefe) (09/21/88)
In article <288@wucs1.wustl.edu> jps@wucs1.UUCP (James Sterbenz) writes: >BTW, what do people think of the SUN mechanically? When we got ours, >I was suprised at how cheap the keyboard felt, kind of like on a >PCjr. _Which_ Sun? The Sun-2, Sun-3, and Sun-386i have different keyboards. The one on the Sun-3 is the nicest keyboard I have ever used, bar none. (I have used several dozen types of terminals, and type moderately fast.)
mball@cod.NOSC.MIL (Michael S. Ball) (09/21/88)
In article <452@quintus.UUCP> ok@quintus.UUCP (Richard A. O'Keefe) writes: >In article <288@wucs1.wustl.edu> jps@wucs1.UUCP (James Sterbenz) writes: >>BTW, what do people think of the SUN mechanically? When we got ours, >>I was suprised at how cheap the keyboard felt, kind of like on a >>PCjr. > >_Which_ Sun? The Sun-2, Sun-3, and Sun-386i have different keyboards. >The one on the Sun-3 is the nicest keyboard I have ever used, bar none. >(I have used several dozen types of terminals, and type moderately fast.) My how opinions do vary. I found the Sun-3 keyboard to be one of the worse I have ever used. The angle is wrong, it has no tactile clue for location of the home keys, and no "over-center" feel at all. It was also the only keyboard I have ever used that made my arms sore. I assumed the latter was some problem in setup until I talked with some others who had the same problems with it that I did. It just shows that keyboard feel is very personal. I think the best I have ever used is a datadesk turbo 101 on my PC clone. -Mike Ball- TauMetric Corporation
jherr@umbio.MIAMI.EDU (Jack Herrington) (09/21/88)
in article <1222@cod.NOSC.MIL>, mball@cod.NOSC.MIL (Michael S. Ball) says: > > It just shows that keyboard feel is very personal. I think the best I > have ever used is a datadesk turbo 101 on my PC clone. It is to anyone who has ever spent more than 12 hous straight on a terminal... I do have to admit that the one thing I have always hated about SUNs were the bad keyboards, the spunginess of the keys and the ugliness of the construction, the way is sort of just lays there, no feet, it's not thin, it's just ugly. I think the best keyboard I ever worked with is one on the DEC personal machines like the rainbow. The one I use now is close, its WYSE-100 and it's feel is really nice, plus its thin and portable. -Jack "Go ahead, bite the big apple, don't mind the maggots!" -The Rolling Stones
spencer@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Stephen Spencer) (09/21/88)
In article <452@quintus.UUCP>, ok@quintus.uucp (Richard A. O'Keefe) writes: > In article <288@wucs1.wustl.edu> jps@wucs1.UUCP (James Sterbenz) writes: > >BTW, what do people think of the SUN mechanically? > > _Which_ Sun? The Sun-2, Sun-3, and Sun-386i have different keyboards. > The one on the Sun-3 is the nicest keyboard I have ever used, bar none. I've used Sun-2 and Sun-3 keyboards, and find that the Sun-3 is by far the better of the two. The little rubber keys on the Sun-2 were...interesting, but those little springs (well, the noise they make) underneath the keys was REAL irritating. The Sun-3 has a very nice feel to it, although it, every once in awhile, beeps at me when I let loose with a burst of keystrokes.
mtr@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Miek Rowan) (09/22/88)
In article <452@quintus.UUCP>, ok@quintus.uucp (Richard A. O'Keefe) writes: > > _Which_ Sun? The Sun-2, Sun-3, and Sun-386i have different keyboards. > The one on the Sun-3 is the nicest keyboard I have ever used, bar none. > (I have used several dozen types of terminals, and type moderately fast.) I think you must be on drugs! I can't claim to have used the Sun-2 or 386i's keyboards, but the Sun 3's keyboard is really bad. It seems really cheap, and the feel just isn't there. There are no dots on the keys (doesn't everyone else work in the dark?) and I get real tired of using it after only 3 or 4 hours. Bar none? I am still in awe that someone feels this way! mtr
aad@stpstn.UUCP (Anthony A. Datri) (09/23/88)
In article <22166@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> spencer@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Stephen Spencer) writes: >In article <452@quintus.UUCP>, ok@quintus.uucp (Richard A. O'Keefe) writes: >> In article <288@wucs1.wustl.edu> jps@wucs1.UUCP (James Sterbenz) writes: >> _Which_ Sun? The Sun-2, Sun-3, and Sun-386i have different keyboards. >> The one on the Sun-3 is the nicest keyboard I have ever used, bar none. >I've used Sun-2 and Sun-3 keyboards, and find that the Sun-3 is by far the >better of the two. The little rubber keys on the Sun-2 were...interesting, >but those little springs (well, the noise they make) underneath the keys >was REAL irritating. The Sun-3 has a very nice feel to it, although it, >every once in awhile, beeps at me when I let loose with a burst of keystrokes. The 2/50 on my desk now doesn't have a @$%@$#%$#$%#%#$ capslock key, which I absolutely love. The Apollo 3000 that was there before had a capslock key that was jealous of the control key, and intercepted it often. I've seen two different kinds of sun 2 keyboards, the "clicky" and the "mushy". I think most of the ones here are "clicky" but have been used so much that they're somewhat less loud. The compaq clone here has an incredibly bad keyboard. Say what you want about the VT52, but I can type pretty fast on that keyboard. The TI Explorer (lisp machine) has the return key where the control key should be, so it could be worse. -- @disclaimer(Any concepts or opinions above are entirely mine, not those of my employer, my GIGI, or my 11/34) beak is beak is not Anthony A. Datri,SysAdmin,StepstoneCorporation,stpstn!aad
ok@quintus.uucp (Richard A. O'Keefe) (09/23/88)
In article <716@mace.cc.purdue.edu> mtr@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Miek Rowan) writes: >In article <452@quintus.UUCP>, ok@quintus.uucp (Richard A. O'Keefe) writes: >> _Which_ Sun? The Sun-2, Sun-3, and Sun-386i have different keyboards. >> The one on the Sun-3 is the nicest keyboard I have ever used, bar none. >> (I have used several dozen types of terminals, and type moderately fast.) >I think you must be on drugs! Coffee, yes. Anything else, never. >I can't claim to have used the Sun-2 or >386i's keyboards, but the Sun 3's keyboard is really bad. It's a nice solid keyboard that doesn't flex, make irritating sounds, isn't spongy, has all the keys in sensible places (those terminals with the "< >" key in between the "z" key and the "SHIFT" key drive me crazy), is the right height off the desk, has keys which don't wobble, a DELETE key which is a decent size, a SHIFT key and a META key on each side, ... ... >It seems really cheap, and the feel just isn't there. _What_ "feel", exactly? As for cheap, try an Atari ST-520 keyboard... >There are no dots on the keys >(doesn't everyone else work in the dark?) I'm typing this in the dark right now. What kind of beginner needs dots? And if you need dots and they're not there, why not get some correction fluid and just put a wee dab on those keys, and presto, dots! (I dislike dots because I don't like things jabbing into my fingertips.) I've used PERQs, 3270s, VT05s, VT100s, ..., and the Sun-3 keyboard is the first one I've really liked and found effortless to use.
mtr@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Miek Rowan) (09/23/88)
> I've used PERQs, 3270s, VT05s, VT100s, ..., and the Sun-3 keyboard is the > first one I've really liked and found effortless to use. Now I see, going from VT100's to Sun's keyboard would be an improvment! I hate where the delete key lies, it is too easy when you are on a roll to hit it with then enter key. I have never had to use a "flexxing" keyboard, I guess I am lucky. I really like the keyboard on my z29. The <> keys should be next to the "m" (which Sun did, clap clap) One thing, at least Sun didn't put the ESC key all the way up in the corner off the main set of keys like IBM. It would be nice it the caps lock was between the "a" and control keys. I don't like the "rubbery" feel of the keyboard either. And while we are talking about Suns, I hate the display, as it seems to drain you of all your energy. After a few hours at the (color) screen you walk away yawning and rubbing your eyes. > >I think you must be on drugs! > Coffee, yes. Anything else, never. This must be your problem then ;-) Very large amounts of sugar, a large cup of hot water and disolve a few vivarin's in there too. I'm set.
jeff@stormy.atmos.washington.edu (Jeff Bowden) (09/24/88)
In article <740@mace.cc.purdue.edu> mtr@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Miek Rowan) writes: >Now I see, going from VT100's to Sun's keyboard would be an improvment! I agree DECs keyboards have an awful layout. >One thing, at least Sun didn't put the ESC key all the way up in the >corner another good point. > It would be nice it the >caps lock was between the "a" and control keys. obviously not an emacs user - I've used keyboards which have this - it drives me nuts. Has anyone ever noticed that the Sun spacebar is way too big? This puts the left & right meta keys so far off that it is almost too inconvenient to use them. Has anyone ever found a use for the those big blocks of function keys on both sides of the keyboard? They seem to take up a lot of space for how useless they are, I'd rather have a numeric keypad (yes, I'm sure they can be reprogrammed but I don't need one *that* badly).
mtr@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Miek Rowan) (09/24/88)
In article <JEFF.88Sep23125154@stormy.atmos.washington.edu>, jeff@stormy.atmos.washington.edu (Jeff Bowden) writes: > > It would be nice it the > >caps lock was between the "a" and control keys. > > obviously not an emacs user - I've used keyboards which have this - it drives > me nuts. Actually I am a gnu person. I guess I am used to this layout and can't adjust to the control key that close to the "a". > Has anyone ever noticed that the Sun spacebar is way too big? This puts the > left & right meta keys so far off that it is almost too inconvenient to use > them. Has anyone ever found a use for the those big blocks of function > keys on both sides of the keyboard? They seem to take up a lot of space for > how useless they are, I'd rather have a numeric keypad (yes, I'm sure they > can be reprogrammed but I don't need one *that* badly). And the top ones on the top are too close being as useless as they are. How many times have you hit one when going for say the backspace key? Ugh. And yes, the spacebar is too wide! mtr
jonathan@itcatl.UUCP (Jonathan Peterson) (09/26/88)
> One thing, at least Sun didn't put the ESC key all the way up in the > corner off the main set of keys like IBM. It would be nice it the > caps lock was between the "a" and control keys. Whatdaya want THAT for? I don't even want ot talk about how many times I've hit <LOCK>Z, or <LOCK>D on my vt-100. What Do I want a Caps lock key for anyway? Put the caps lock on the back of the terminal or something, just keep it away from useful keys like <Ctrl>.
c91a-ra@franny.Berkeley.EDU (reader.john.kawakami) (09/26/88)
I couldn't resist putting my 2bits worth in on this "discussion." Since no one has mentioned it: How about a Control key on each side of the keyboard. This wouldn't do much for UNIX editors, but on micros, where some programs require CTRL-something-S, it would be a big help. And smaller key caps would be better too. Smaller caps give you a clearer sense of where your fingers are (on the keyboard) and let you type faster. I also agree that a caps lock key betw. Ctrl and A makes no sense. Who uses caps lock enough to justify putting it there. BTW, the 520ST keyboard feels awful, but the layout is nice. The keys are much better on the Megas--a lot like the Sun-3. TTL EXE MUX PRG A3I MTX TTP FOE TUS APP JTK MMU CRT VDI TOS DRI GEM CPM ACC OMV JOH NKA WAK AMI c91 a-r a@f ran ny. Ber kel ey. Edu kaw aka mi@ zen .Be kel ey.
roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) (09/26/88)
c91a-ra@franny.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (reader.john.kawakami) writes: > How about a Control key on each side of the keyboard. The only keyboard I've ever seen like this was on the lowly ADM-5. It had a control key on either side of the (shortish) space bar. In theory a good idea, but I nevet got used to using the right one. -- Roy Smith, System Administrator Public Health Research Institute {allegra,philabs,cmcl2,rutgers}!phri!roy -or- phri!roy@uunet.uu.net "The connector is the network"
sullivan@vsi.UUCP (Michael T Sullivan) (09/27/88)
As the summary says, keyboard preference is a very, very individual thing
and, as such, it is pointless flaming about it on the net. You can't
convince somebody keyboard x is better than keyboard y because typing
just doesn't work that way.
--
Michael Sullivan {uunet|attmail}!vsi!sullivan
V-Systems, Inc. Santa Ana, CA sullivan@vsi.com
Just say to yourself over and over, "President Quayle". I can't do more than 2.tneff@dasys1.UUCP (Tom Neff) (09/27/88)
I'll take the Hazeltine Esprit III keyboard any old time. Mine is circa 1981, I have had three or four accompanying monitors shot out from under it in that time, but whenever the repairman comes I save the keyboard and swap for the new one he brings. (I have my favorite F-key settings on stickers on the bridge and I don't want to have to make up new ones. Besides, since this one is apparently going to last forever, why roll the dice again?) As the years go by, other people in my (growing) firm bring in all the "fad" CRTs but I just stick with Ol' Reliable. btw as far as PC keyboards go I am happy with the Keytronics 5150, it is just a tad light compared to the Hazeltube's but not too much and it is COMPLETELY cleanable, a big plus. -- Tom Neff UUCP: ...!cmcl2!phri!dasys1!tneff "None of your toys CIS: 76556,2536 MCI: TNEFF will function..." GEnie: TOMNEFF BIX: t.neff (no kidding)
johng@ecrcvax.UUCP (John Gregor) (09/27/88)
-In article <466@quintus.UUCP> ->In article <716@mace.cc.purdue.edu> ->>In article <452@quintus.UUCP> ->>> In article <... ->>>> In article <... ->>>>> In article <... ->>>>>> In article <... [ my keyboard is better than your keyboard arguments... ] ->>>>> ->>>> ->>> ->> -> Well I just hate to see good bandwidth go to waste. How about the Apollo keyboards (The newer ones with 10 function keys across the tops)? I'd trade my sun-3 keyboard for one of these any day. Maybe we should get the greatest keyboard whiner of them all (JP) to comment on his favourite layout/feel (other than the IBM Selectric). -- John Gregor johng%ecrcvax.UUCP@pyramid.COM
doug@iemisi.UUCP (Doug Snow) (09/28/88)
.....<Stuff deleted> >> caps lock was between the "a" and control keys. > >Whatdaya want THAT for? I don't even want ot talk about how many times I've >hit <LOCK>Z, or <LOCK>D on my vt-100. What Do I want a Caps lock key for >anyway? Put the caps lock on the back of the terminal or something, just >keep it away from useful keys like <Ctrl>. Here Here, this has been a pet peeve of mine for quite some time. What is it with these PS/2, AT and Clone 101 keyboards? They're brutal. CAPSLOCK-S does not stop things from scrolling, contrary to what my fingers insist! (I know, CONTROL-NUMLOCK did....gackk). A good keyboard is real important to me, I have yet to find a great one but I really prefer my Sun-3 over PCs, ATs, vt100s et al.(the LK-201 always felt, great but the layout -- yuchhh). It has a firm feel, no noise and control and escape are where _I_ need them. It ain't perfect, but little is. I wish keyboard designers would talk to me; I've always wanted to write a long diatribe on what I want, what I hate and what I feel is necessary in a keyboard (I mean they're the front line for me, really)...but there are a lot of things I'd like to do. Doug -- ______________________________________________________________________________ Doug Snow, Boeing Canada, Toronto. UUCP: {geac|utzoo|utgpu}!syntron!jtsv16!marsal1!iemisi!doug suncan!jtsv16!marsal1!iemisi!doug
spolsky-joel@CS.YALE.EDU (Joel Spolsky) (09/28/88)
In article <3510@phri.UUCP> roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) writes: | c91a-ra@franny.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (reader.john.kawakami) writes: | | How about a Control key on each side of the keyboard. | | The only keyboard I've ever seen like this was on the lowly ADM-5. It had | a control key on either side of the (shortish) space bar. In theory a good | idea, but I nevet got used to using the right one. The IBM PS/2 keyboards have both Ctrl and Alt duplicated on either side of the keyboard. This means you can hit ctrl-just-about-anything with one hand, which helps handicapped users as well as coffee drinkers. +----------------+---------------------------------------------------+ | Joel Spolsky | bitnet: spolsky@yalecs uucp: ...!yale!spolsky | | | arpa: spolsky@yale.edu voicenet: 203-436-1483 | +----------------+---------------------------------------------------+ These opinions are mine. I do not represent Yale University in any way.
spolsky-joel@CS.YALE.EDU (Joel Spolsky) (09/28/88)
In article <278@itcatl.UUCP> jonathan@itcatl.UUCP (Jonathan Peterson) writes: | | One thing, at least Sun didn't put the ESC key all the way up in the | | corner off the main set of keys like IBM. It would be nice it the | | caps lock was between the "a" and control keys. | | Whatdaya want THAT for? I don't even want ot talk about how many times I've | hit <LOCK> Z, or <LOCK> D on my vt-100. What Do I want a Caps lock key for | anyway? Put the caps lock on the back of the terminal or something, just | keep it away from useful keys like <Ctrl> . Hear hear! biggest mistake on the PS/2 keyboard: the caps lock key is where the Ctrl key should be. (IBM still makes typewriters. Backward-compatibility, you know.) I guess people in the MAINFRAME IBM WORLD and the VAX/VMS WORLD use CAPITAL LETTERS A LOT. must get NOISY. The only thing more unforgivable is the Symbolics lisp machine, which has RUBOUT where the ctrl key is supposed to be. Gads. Reason enough not to buy a Symbolics :-) BTW if anybody wants a program to change the CapsLock to a Ctrl on a PS/2 send me mail. +----------------+---------------------------------------------------+ | Joel Spolsky | bitnet: spolsky@yalecs uucp: ...!yale!spolsky | | | arpa: spolsky@yale.edu voicenet: 203-436-1483 | +----------------+---------------------------------------------------+ These opinions are mine. I do not represent Yale University in any way.
spolsky-joel@CS.YALE.EDU (Joel Spolsky) (09/28/88)
In article <871@vsi.UUCP> sullivan@vsi.UUCP (Michael T Sullivan) writes: | | As the summary says, keyboard preference is a very, very individual thing | and, as such, it is pointless flaming about it on the net. You can't | convince somebody keyboard x is better than keyboard y because typing | just doesn't work that way. Yes it does. Certain things are measurable; there are books (well, chapters) on the ergonomics of keyboard design. Keyboard arrangements that are unusual cause more errors, period; when you muck about with the ctrl key, the errors are more severe; and FOR HEAVENS SAKE WHO USES CAPS LOCK!!! :-) But seriously all would agree that RETURN and shift keys, due to frequent use, should be larger, shouldn't move about, and probably shouldn't have silly little twiggle things like ~ and \ getting in the way... (I promise I won't go on about this any more :-) +----------------+---------------------------------------------------+ | Joel Spolsky | bitnet: spolsky@yalecs uucp: ...!yale!spolsky | | | arpa: spolsky@yale.edu voicenet: 203-436-1483 | +----------------+---------------------------------------------------+ These opinions are mine. I do not represent Yale University in any way.
jherr@umbio.MIAMI.EDU (Jack Herrington) (09/28/88)
in article <38995@yale-celray.yale.UUCP>, spolsky-joel@CS.YALE.EDU (Joel Spolsky) says: > FOR HEAVENS SAKE WHO USES CAPS LOCK!!! :-) Seriously, it's sickening to see these losers move all the way to the CAPS-LOCK key, hit it and then come back, type 4 characters, and go and hit the CAPS-LOCK key again. By that time I am a sentance and a half ahead. But we can't ban them becuase they'll just whine until the end of there days about how nice the old keyboards were, until the nasty hackers came and took away the CAPS-LOCK key and re-arranged the whole keyboard. -Jack
roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) (09/29/88)
Clearly, what the world needs is a standard keyboard interface, and
a choice of keyboards from which users can pick and choose as they like,
regardles of what system they are on. Apple's ADB is at least a start in
this direction.
--
Roy Smith, System Administrator
Public Health Research Institute
{allegra,philabs,cmcl2,rutgers}!phri!roy -or- phri!roy@uunet.uu.net
"The connector is the network"rroot@edm.UUCP (Stephen Samuel) (09/29/88)
#c91a-ra@franny.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (reader.john.kawakami) writes: #> How about a Control key on each side of the keyboard. #The only keyboard I've ever seen like this was on the lowly ADM-5. It had #a control key on either side of the (shortish) space bar. In theory a good It's also available on the COnvergent Tech. (rs 422) pt/gt terminals. It's rather nice, but I agree that it's a bit hard to get used to the concept of TWO control keys. (I use too many other terminals) From article <278@itcatl.UUCP>, by jonathan@itcatl.UUCP (Jonathan Peterson): >> It would be nice it the caps lock was between the "a" and control keys. > Whatdaya want THAT for? I don't even want ot talk about how many times I've > hit <LOCK>Z, or <LOCK>D on my vt-100. What Do I want a Caps lock key for > anyway? Put the caps lock on the back of the terminal or something, just Yay!, BRAVO!! > keep it away from useful keys like <Ctrl>. or <A>! One thing that I dislike about the pt/ct (and most other keyboards) is that the shift-lock is right next to the <A>. Shift-lock is almost useless on a UNIX machine. The one I like best is the old Radio-Shack keyboards where shift-lock was activated by the (somewhat obscure) shift-<0> (that's a zero). Easy enough to activate WHEN YOU WANTED IT, but out of the way for day-to-day activities. -- ------------- Stephen Samuel (userzxcv@ualtamts.bitnet or alberta!edm!steve) (Only in Canada, you say??.... Pity!)
dave@onfcanim.UUCP (Dave Martindale) (09/29/88)
I would be really happy if all of the keyboards I use could be configured so that the CAPS LOCK key performed the CONTROL function. I never actually want to use caps lock, so whenever I hit it I really meant CTRL.
robert@pvab.UUCP (Robert Claeson) (09/29/88)
In article <634@ecrcvax.UUCP>, johng@ecrcvax.UUCP (John Gregor) writes: > Maybe we should get the greatest keyboard whiner of them all (JP) to comment > on his favourite layout/feel (other than the IBM Selectric). What 'bout the IBM RT keyboard? (I think I'm gonna get lots of hate mail the next few weeks.) -- Robert Claeson, ERBE DATA AB, P.O. Box 77, S-175 22 Jarfalla, Sweden Tel: +46 758-202 50 Fax: +46 758-197 20 Email: robert@pvab.se (soon rclaeson@erbe.se)
joe@modcomp.UUCP (09/29/88)
Roy Smith writes: > Clearly, what the world needs is a standard keyboard interface, and a > choice of keyboards from which users can pick and choose as they like, > regardles of what system they are on. Apple's ADB is at least a start > in this direction. WARNING: RUMOR COMING YOUR WAY :-) I believe ISO standardized a keyboard quite a few years ago, and that the first commercial product which used it was the IBM PC jr. You know what happened to that machine. The point is, a keyboard standard has to be much closer to "perfection" (whatever that is) than is usually required of a standard, or it will not be accepted. -- Joe Korty "flames, flames, go away uunet!modcomp!joe come back again, some other day"
ham@hpsmtc1.HP.COM (Bob Hamilton) (09/30/88)
How about an empty matrix, with plug-in, self-defining, user-positionable keys? --Bob Hamilton
darin@nova.laic.uucp (Darin Johnson) (09/30/88)
Speaking of silly layouts etc., my most annoying terminal is
the vt200 series (which I use 99% of the time). First off,
it looks nice, has a detached keyboard, doesn't hog your
desk, keys have a nice feel, etc. However, DEC, in their
omniscience, decided to not have an escape key. In vt100
emulation mode, you can have an escape key, but it is above
the "-" key of all places. In vt200 mode, you don't have an
escape key at all!! (presumably, since no VAX/VMS products
use an ESC, they figured no-one would miss it)
When I log in remotely to my Suns, I type Control-[ to get
an ESC. I am so used to that, that I even use that sequence
when logged in on the Sun console or on my computer at home.
This gets embarassing when people look over my shoulder ("I don't
know what strange sequence you typed, but I use ESC myself").
(also, the '<', '>' are typed by the left pinky, the Caps-Lock is
where the Ctrl key should be, etc.)
I have seen vt220 clones with these "problems" fixed. I imagine
these would make nice terminals, if only my company wasn't so
scared about buying non-DEC.
Darin Johnson (...pyramid.arpa!leadsv!laic!darin)
(...ucbvax!sun!sunncal!leadsv!laic!darin)
"All aboard the DOOMED express!"toma@tekgvs.GVS.TEK.COM (Tom Almy) (09/30/88)
It looks like some people might be intersted in my TSR that fixes
the caps lock "problem" on PC-ATs or AT clones (*not for XTs*).
It may work on PS-2s, I don't have one to test it.
This program is one of several TSRs that I had posted to the
pc binaries group some months ago. The caps lock becomes an additional
control key. To get the caps lock function, hold down the right shift
key and press the caps lock key.
Enjoy!
begin 666 kbdr.com
MZ0@`30(`````"@"\FO_'!@4!F/^]_O^)+@<!_.A@`+@`3,TA`````(#\3W4M
M/#IU&@8NC@9^`";V!A<$`74"L!VB?0`'^2[_+H``/+IU"Z!]``2`^2[_+H``
M^2[_+H``7EA:6QZ.V[0ES2$?_^:T-<TAB=B,P\.Z#`"X`#'-(>A]`#1#05!3
M3$]#2R`M/B!#5%),+"`@4DE'2%132$E&5"`K($-!4%-,3T-+("T^($-!4%-,
M3T-+Z%<`Z$(`"T)Y(%1O;2!!;&UYZ$4`QP9^````N!4`Z);_HR0!B1XF`;HD
M`5*Z@`!2NCP`4NA1`(S(4+J$`%*Z%0!2Z&3_Z7C_6XH',.1#4U`!PUA:4XG3
MZ2$`N`T`Z`D`N`H`Z0,``0``HA\"M$"Y`0"Z'P*+'AT"S2'#B<&)VHL>'0*T
20,TAPUM97U[C!HS8CL#SI/_C
`
end
Tom Almy
toma@tekgvs.tek.com
Standard Disclaimers Applyglennw@nsc.nsc.com (Glenn Weinberg) (10/01/88)
In article <2800001@modcomp> joe@modcomp.UUCP writes: > >Roy Smith writes: > >> Clearly, what the world needs is a standard keyboard interface, and a >> choice of keyboards from which users can pick and choose as they like, >> regardles of what system they are on. Apple's ADB is at least a start >> in this direction. > >WARNING: RUMOR COMING YOUR WAY :-) >I believe ISO standardized a keyboard quite a few years ago, and that >the first commercial product which used it was the IBM PC jr. In fact, the DEC VT200/300 terminals that everyone's been bashing are, in fact, ISO keyboards. We can argue about the fact that the layout stinks, but believe it or not they are an international standard. In article <349@laic.UUCP> darin@nova.laic.uucp (Darin Johnson) writes: >Speaking of silly layouts etc., my most annoying terminal is >the vt200 series (which I use 99% of the time). First off, >it looks nice, has a detached keyboard, doesn't hog your >desk, keys have a nice feel, etc. However, DEC, in their >omniscience, decided to not have an escape key. In vt100 >emulation mode, you can have an escape key, but it is above >the "-" key of all places. In vt200 mode, you don't have an >escape key at all!! (presumably, since no VAX/VMS products >use an ESC, they figured no-one would miss it) You're right about the early VT200's. However, DEC did actually learn something, and the more recent versions, and the VT300's, allow you to remap the offending keys so the keyboard looks more like what you'd want. (Details: you can make the "~`" key in the upper-left-hand corner transmit ESC; the "><" key in the lower-left-hand corner transmit "~`", and the "<X|" key in the upper-right-hand corner transmit BS. This makes typing "~" and "`" something of a pain, but I at least use them much less often than ESC or BS--except, of course, when writing articles like this one :-) So, if your management really insists that you buy DEC, at least you can make the keyboard tolerable. One other point. The VT200 was one of the first ASCII terminals (in the US anyway) to truly support 8-bit characters (i.e., not just 7-bit characters in an 8-bit field). From an EMACS point of view in particular, this is a very attractive capability. Of course, on the downside (there always seems to be a downside, unfortunately :-), the 8-bit set is not one of the standard ISO Latin sets, although it is close. MAJOR DISCLAIMER: Please don't take this as a sales pitch for VT200/300 terminals. I am not a big fan of theirs. I just thought I'd try and shed some light on the situation since there seemed to be so little real data in this discussion. (And yes, I am typing this on a VT320, and although I have the keys remapped so I can survive in EMACS, I still don't like the feel of the keys and I have to stretch my pinkies much too far to hit RETURN or CTRL.) -- Glenn Weinberg Email: glennw@nsc.nsc.com National Semiconductor Corporation Phone: (408) 721-8102 (My opinions are strictly my own, but you can borrow them if you want.)
36_5130@uwovax.uwo.ca (Kinch) (10/01/88)
In article <349@laic.UUCP>, darin@nova.laic.uucp (Darin Johnson) writes: > Speaking of silly layouts etc., my most annoying terminal is > the vt200 series (which I use 99% of the time). First off, > it looks nice, has a detached keyboard, doesn't hog your > desk, keys have a nice feel, etc. However, DEC, in their > omniscience, decided to not have an escape key. In vt100 > emulation mode, you can have an escape key, but it is above > the "-" key of all places. In vt200 mode, you don't have an > escape key at all!! (presumably, since no VAX/VMS products > use an ESC, they figured no-one would miss it) > This is a real pain in the butt! Everybody around here keeps asking me why I use vt100 mode on this DEC vt220 terminal, (it is the only true DEC vt220 that I am aware of on campus), and I keep telling them that I use EMACS and need and escape key. This has gone on so long that I have not even bothered to learn the vt2xx keys. [Ah well Emacs is good enough without special keys] > (also, the '<', '>' are typed by the left pinky, the Caps-Lock is > where the Ctrl key should be, etc.) > I think I am the only person in the world who LIKES those keys there, I hate having to shift and stretch to reach those on most terminals. It is probably that I am just a poor typer and dont know any better. > I have seen vt220 clones with these "problems" fixed. I imagine > these would make nice terminals, if only my company wasn't so > scared about buying non-DEC. > That is a shame! For the most part I dislike this DEC terminal alot. It is the only one I ever have flow control problems with (except IBM's emulating vt100) and YOU CANT TURN OFF THAT DAMN BLINKING CURSOR. Well at least not in setup mode! > Darin Johnson (...pyramid.arpa!leadsv!laic!darin) > (...ucbvax!sun!sunncal!leadsv!laic!darin) > "All aboard the DOOMED express!" Dave Kinchlea Kinch@uwovax.uwo.ca Davek@julian.uucp
msb@sq.uucp (Mark Brader) (10/01/88)
> How about an empty matrix, with plug-in, self-defining, > user-positionable keys? *And* with keys that *physically* lock down available for Shift Lock! (What do I want Shift Lock for? #define FOO(x) ... #define BAR(x) ... #define BAZ(x) ... k = FOO(BAR(BAZ(NULL)*BAZ(MANIFEST))); *That's* what for. And none of this wimpy Caps Lock stuff, either, please. Real Men use Real Typewriters, eh?) Mark Brader, utzoo!sq!msb, msb@sq.com C unions never strike!
scorpion@titan.rice.edu (Vernon Lee) (10/04/88)
Other keyboards with misplaced CAPS-LOCK and CTRL keys include the Mac II
and the IBM PC RT. What's the problem - is CTRL too dangerous to be put in
an easy-to-reach place? This looks like a trend to me; I want to know what
their reasoning was.
Vernon Lee ARPA/CSNET: scorpion@rice.edu
Rice University UUCP: {internet or backbone site}!rice!scorpion
New, revised motto: "Of course, I could be wrong"anand@vax1.acs.udel.EDU (Anand Iyengar) (10/04/88)
In article <1222@cod.NOSC.MIL> mball@cod.nosc.mil.UUCP (Michael S. Ball) writes: >My how opinions do vary. I found the Sun-3 keyboard to be one of the worse >I have ever used. The angle is wrong, it has no tactile clue for location I've found it to be the absolute worst keyboard that I've ever used (ADM-5's not barred). (*sigh*) What ever happened to the MicroSwitch Hall-effect KB's that I grew up with? Anand.
robert@pvab.UUCP (Robert Claeson) (10/04/88)
In article <6722@nsc.nsc.com>, glennw@nsc.nsc.com (Glenn Weinberg) writes: > One other point. The VT200 was one of the first ASCII terminals (in the US > anyway) to truly support 8-bit characters (i.e., not just 7-bit > characters in an 8-bit field). From an EMACS point of view in particular, > this is a very attractive capability. Of course, on the downside (there > always seems to be a downside, unfortunately :-), the 8-bit set is not > one of the standard ISO Latin sets, although it is close. The VT3xx-terminals have the ISO 8859/Latin 1 character set as well as DEC's own Multinational character set. -- Robert Claeson, ERBE DATA AB, P.O. Box 77, S-175 22 Jarfalla, Sweden Tel: +46 758-202 50 Fax: +46 758-197 20 Email: robert@pvab.se (soon rclaeson@erbe.se)
wtr@moss.ATT.COM (10/04/88)
In article <1957@kalliope.rice.edu> scorpion@titan.rice.edu (Vernon Lee) writes: >Other keyboards with misplaced CAPS-LOCK and CTRL keys include the Mac II >and the IBM PC RT. What's the problem - is CTRL too dangerous to be put in >an easy-to-reach place? This looks like a trend to me; I want to know what >their reasoning was. well, on most typewriters, that *is* the location of the caps-lock. apparently, "they" thought that it would better for touch typests if the keyboard closely mimicked that of the typewriter. funny thing though, when i was installing pee-cee's as word processors in offices, and instructing the secretaries on their use, i never got a complaint about the ctrl-key/caps debate. it usually took them about a day and a half to adjust and then they just flipped back and forth freely between their typewriters and the pc's. >Vernon Lee ARPA/CSNET: scorpion@rice.edu bill rankin att!moss!wtr
keith@mips.COM (Keith Garrett) (10/05/88)
while we're bashing keyboards, what about backspace and delete. i don't
understand why the default for most systems is to use the delete key as a
backspace key when there is a perfectly good backspace key on the keyboard.
--
Keith Garrett "This is *MY* opinion, OBVIOUSLY"
UUCP: keith@mips.com or {ames,decwrl,prls}!mips!keith
USPS: Mips Computer Systems,930 Arques Ave,Sunnyvale,Ca. 94086albaugh@dms.UUCP (Mike Albaugh) (10/07/88)
From article <4457@obiwan.mips.COM>, by keith@mips.COM (Keith Garrett): > while we're bashing keyboards, what about backspace and delete. i don't > understand why the default for most systems is to use the delete key as a > backspace key when there is a perfectly good backspace key on the keyboard. Gee, I always wondered why a lot of systems use backspace to delete a character when there is a perfectly good delete key on the keyboard. A much more serious complaint is with terminal emulators which will map the delete to backspace (or vice-versa) but do so using the ascii, rather than scancode (which I know from other capabilities they have access to), so I have two or three ways to get one code, but _no_ way to get the other :-( > -- > Keith Garrett "This is *MY* opinion, OBVIOUSLY" > UUCP: keith@mips.com or {ames,decwrl,prls}!mips!keith > USPS: Mips Computer Systems,930 Arques Ave,Sunnyvale,Ca. 94086 | Mike Albaugh (albaugh@dms.UUCP || {...decwrl!turtlevax!}weitek!dms!albaugh) | Atari Games Corp (Arcade Games, no relation to the makers of the ST) | 675 Sycamore Dr. Milpitas, CA 95035 voice: (408)434-1709 | The opinions expressed are my own (Boy, are they ever)
chris@mimsy.UUCP (Chris Torek) (10/07/88)
>In article <4457@obiwan.mips.COM> keith@mips.COM (Keith Garrett) writes: >>while we're bashing keyboards, what about backspace and delete. i don't >>understand why the default for most systems is to use the delete key as a >>backspace key when there is a perfectly good backspace key on the keyboard. In article <550@dms.UUCP> albaugh@dms.UUCP (Mike Albaugh) answers: > Gee, I always wondered why a lot of systems use backspace to delete >a character when there is a perfectly good delete key on the keyboard. :-) Actually, if you want to get historical (hysterical?) about it, we should all be typing `BACK SPACE' `DELETE' to get rid of input characters. Remember, backspace just moves the tape punch back one sprocket hole, and then DELETE punches all the holes. (Sure, my Sun looks just like a paper tape reader/punch. Or maybe it was the punch... :-) ) Whether the appropriate character is BS, DEL, CAN, ESC, or whatnot is a user-preference thing---just as is the `feel' of the keyboard. What we need is an interchange standard, so that I can plug my favourite keyboard into any display, and then take it with me to California or Australia when I go out there. -- In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7163) Domain: chris@mimsy.umd.edu Path: uunet!mimsy!chris