dave@lsuc.uucp (David Sherman) (09/29/88)
I'm a little surprised at the pricing policy of Empress Software
Inc. (formerly Rhodnius) for their Empress (formerly Mistress)
database software. I'd like to know whether others agree with me.
We obtained a license to Mistress version 1.13 in 1985. It runs
on this machine, a Perkin-Elmer 3220, and cost about $4,500 at
the time. We explicitly decided not to take maintenance at $1,300
per year, since we have a fair bit of in-house expertise. The
version we have has a number of bugs, but we've been able to live
with them and work around them.
The database is used by staff for student records. All of the
staff will shortly be moving to an AT&T 3B2/400, to reduce the
load on this system. Thus, we need to move the database as well.
Since no database applications will remain on the P-E, I was
hoping to transfer our license to the 3B2 at some reasonable cost.
Empress will only transfer the license if we pay for three years
of RETROACTIVE maintenance -- pay for maintenance we never received.
I understand that maintenance and support includes bug fixes and
upgrades, and I'd be willing to pay a portion of this charge to
represent the upgrades, but to suggest we pay for maintenance we
never received seems ludicrous. The only alternative Empress offers
is a completely new license for the 3B2. Either way it will cost
us about $5,000.
Anyone care to comment on this policy?
(Yes, I'm going to take a hard look at some other packages now.)
David Sherman
The Law Society of Upper Canada
Toronto
(416) 947-3466
--
{ uunet!attcan att pyramid!utai utzoo } !lsuc!daveevan@telly.UUCP (Evan Leibovitch) (09/30/88)
In article <1988Sep28.150224.26393@lsuc.uucp>, dave@lsuc.uucp (David Sherman) writes: > I'm a little surprised at the pricing policy of Empress Software > Inc. (formerly Rhodnius) for their Empress (formerly Mistress) > database software. I'd like to know whether others agree with me. > > We obtained a license to Mistress version 1.13 in 1985. It runs > on this machine, a Perkin-Elmer 3220, and cost about $4,500 at > the time. >[...] > Since no database applications will remain on the P-E, I was > hoping to transfer our license to the 3B2 at some reasonable cost. >[...] > Empress will only transfer the license if we pay for three years > of RETROACTIVE maintenance -- pay for maintenance we never received. I didn't run into that problem - when I wanted to transfer a Mistress license from my Convergent Megaframe to a 386 Xenix system, they said there'd only be an administrative fee. They said nothing about retroactive support. I never found out for certain what they would have charged, because I didn't take them up on their offer. Frankly, I have my own personal boycott of Empress going, and I refuse to recommend it, because of the company's marketing policies. Here is the worst one of many: This Canadian company refuses to sell its products or support to other Canadian companies in Canadian currency. Every time I have been quoted a price for anything from Rhodnius, it's in US dollars - I have to worry about the exchange myself. As recently as a few months ago, I was told that the company neither had nor planned to produce a Canadian currency price list. This from a firm based in Toronto. I'm sure Americans would be more than a little irate at a US company which forces them to pay for products in yen. This policy is nothing short of odious, and I ask my Canadian associates and clients to show their displeasure with their chequebooks. Buy something else. -- Evan Leibovitch, SA of System Telly, located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario evan@telly.UUCP (PENDING: evan@telly.on.ca) / {uunet!attcan,utzoo}!telly!evan Don't worry - Be happy.
zgel05@apctrc.UUCP (George E. Lehmann) (10/01/88)
In article <1988Sep28.150224.26393@lsuc.uucp> dave@lsuc.uucp (David Sherman) writes: >Empress will only transfer the license if we pay for three years >of RETROACTIVE maintenance -- pay for maintenance we never received. >I understand that maintenance and support includes bug fixes and >upgrades, and I'd be willing to pay a portion of this charge to >represent the upgrades, but to suggest we pay for maintenance we >never received seems ludicrous. The only alternative Empress offers >is a completely new license for the 3B2. Either way it will cost >us about $5,000. In my other life as a software publisher, we have a similar policy, although the pricing ratios are substantially different. We sell a $2,000 package with annual support/upgrade fees of $149. Since the program is still evolving, new updates do far more than fix bugs, and we count the updates as the major reason for the annual fee. Therefore, to keep someone from going 'on the sly' and dropping support for a couple of years and then coming back to get the latest version for one year's price, we require the same 'retroactive continuity'. On the other hand, I do see your point, and you might suggest to them (if you haven't already) that you would be willing to meet on some common ground for the express purpose of obtaining a new license and new binaries (and sources?). You might consider throwing in a promise to never bother them for support, if that is your intention, or for only 30 days support, or whatever... You might also mention (threaten) that if you are going to pay the equivalent of a new package, that you might just look to other vendors out of spite. Be sure to climb as high in their company as you can before you let this one loose. -- George Lehmann, ...!uunet!apctrc!zgel05 Amoco Production Co., PO BOX 3385, Tulsa, Ok 74102 ph:918-660-4066 Standard Disclaimer: Contents are my responsibility, not AMOCO's.
brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) (10/03/88)
Don't be too surprised at their refusal to set a Canadian price list. (Although I am surprised if they would not accept the equivalent amount in Canadian dollars when you buy.) Most of my sales are in the US. I decide the price for my product based on what I think is best for that market. I then set by Canadian price to be similar. Over the last few years the exchange rate has changed a great deal. But I want the U.S. price to stay the same because that's how I priced my product. So the domestic price must fluctuate. And who wants to keep changing prices, especially on official lists? Much simplier to say the price is US$X. It makes it easier for the customer to understand why it's fluctuating. Don't forget also that even if 15% of sales come from Canada, almost all advertising expenses are in $US. Generally you advertise into U.S. magazines that are read by Canadians. Some advertising will be done in Canadian magazines for certain products, but there's not a lot of that. -- Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
sl@van-bc.UUCP (pri=-10 Stuart Lynne) (10/04/88)
In article <366@telly.UUCP> evan@telly.UUCP (Evan Leibovitch) writes: >In article <1988Sep28.150224.26393@lsuc.uucp>, dave@lsuc.uucp (David Sherman) writes: >This Canadian company refuses to sell its products or support >to other Canadian companies in Canadian currency. Every time I have been >quoted a price for anything from Rhodnius, it's in US dollars - I have to >worry about the exchange myself. As recently as a few months ago, I was told >that the company neither had nor planned to produce a Canadian currency price >list. This from a firm based in Toronto. > >I'm sure Americans would be more than a little irate at a US company which >forces them to pay for products in yen. This policy is nothing short of >odious, and I ask my Canadian associates and clients to show their >displeasure with their chequebooks. Buy something else. When I ran a company (NCI) selling p-System software for IBM PC's out of Vancouver approxiametly 92% of our business was from the US. About 4% was from international sales other than the US. The balance of about 4% was Canadian. We did *everything* in US dollars. Including tracking sales figures, costing etc. The sales people would always quote US founds unless they knew that it was a Canadian customer. Then they would convert using current rates to Canadian. Believe me when you are running mail/phone order software sales out of Canada this simplifies things. You cater to your target market. Just because a company is based in Toronto doesn't mean that is where they plan on making their sales. Lets face it the old adage about California being a bigger market than Canada is inescapable. You should applaud this firm's initiative for seeking out new markets and bringing foreign currency into the country. -- Stuart.Lynne@wimsey.bc.ca {ubc-cs,uunet}!van-bc!sl Vancouver,BC,604-937-7532
jim@hcr.UUCP (Jim Sullivan) (10/06/88)
In article <366@telly.UUCP> evan@telly.UUCP writes: > >This Canadian company refuses to sell its products or support >to other Canadian companies in Canadian currency. Every time I have been >quoted a price for anything from Rhodnius, it's in US dollars - I have to >worry about the exchange myself. As recently as a few months ago, I was told >that the company neither had nor planned to produce a Canadian currency price >list. This from a firm based in Toronto. > >I'm sure Americans would be more than a little irate at a US company which >forces them to pay for products in yen. This policy is nothing short of >odious, and I ask my Canadian associates and clients to show their >displeasure with their chequebooks. Buy something else. >-- > Evan Leibovitch, SA of System Telly, located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario >evan@telly.UUCP (PENDING: evan@telly.on.ca) / {uunet!attcan,utzoo}!telly!evan > Don't worry - Be happy. But like most Canadian Software companies, a majority of their sales are outside of Canada. The problems maintaining multiple price lists are just to much of a headache. Anyways, you could get a price break is you just played the market right, only pay them when the Canadian dollar is high relative to the american dollar! I can't agree with the policy of "buy something else". That just sends Canadian dollars outside the country. The price of something is always relative, and it will cost you the same if you pay in Canadian dollars, American dollars, Yen, or little rocks with holes in them! :-) Jim Sullivan "These are my opinions, so keep your hands off them"
evan@telly.UUCP (Evan Leibovitch) (10/08/88)
In article <4053@hcr.UUCP>, jim@hcr.UUCP (Jim Sullivan) writes: >In article <366@telly.UUCP> evan@telly.UUCP writes: >> >>This Canadian company refuses to sell its products or support >>to other Canadian companies in Canadian currency. >> >>I'm sure Americans would be more than a little irate at a US company which >>forces them to pay for products in yen. This policy is nothing short of >>odious, and I ask my Canadian associates and clients to show their >>displeasure with their chequebooks. Buy something else. > >But like most Canadian Software companies, a majority of their sales are outside >of Canada. The problems maintaining multiple price lists are just to much >of a headache. They MAKE a database system, and keeping track of pricing data is too much of a headache? Do these people know how to use their own product? The Canadian marketplace, obviously, is not too much of a headache for U.S. companies selling their wares here. They all have firm Canadian pricing. >Anyways, you could get a price break is you just played the >market right, only pay them when the Canadian dollar is high relative to the >american dollar! That's not acceptable if I want to establish a firm quotation for a client. >I can't agree with the policy of "buy something else". That just sends >Canadian dollars outside the country. I cannot support a Canadian company which refuses to be competitive or care about the needs of its customers, just because it is Canadian. If Rhodnius is selling its product to the British in US dollars, it will similarly lose out to the competitor willing to quote a price in pounds. >The price of something is always >relative, and it will cost you the same if you pay in Canadian dollars, >American dollars, Yen, or little rocks with holes in them! :-) Relative to what? Without Rhodnius changing its pricing one cent, I can be almost 100% certain that the price I would have to pay tomorrow for its product is different from today's price. How much it changes is determined by a factor (the exchange rate) over which neither the seller nor the buyer have control. All Rhodnius' non-marketing expenses are paid in Canadian dollars, its dividends (if they exist) are paid in Canadian dollars, and it files to Revenue Canada, not the IRS. The company must certainly be calculating its basic selling prices in Canadian dollars, THEN converting it. It is nothing but marketing laziness that keeps the company from publishing Canadian prices. I am far angrier at a Canadian company which treats its home market as a "headache", than I am at a foreign company which chooses to bypass Canada. If Informix and Oracle believe the Canadian marketplace is worthy of Canadian sales offices and STABLE pricing in Canadian currency, then they are showing more respect for the Canadian DBMS consumer than Rhodnius. In my eyes, though, this Canadian pricing (or lack thereof) is just symptomatic of the generally brain-damaged marketing strategy at Rhodnius. There are other examples of the miserable way in which they have peddled Empress. Like the way they (don't) work with VARs. Rhodnius has a good product, and they'd be right up there in sales with Informix and Oracle if they had their act together. >Jim Sullivan -- Evan Leibovitch, SA of System Telly, located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario evan@telly.UUCP (PENDING: evan@telly.on.ca) / {uunet!attcan,utzoo}!telly!evan Don't worry - Be happy.
woods@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (Greg Woods) (10/09/88)
In article <4053@hcr.UUCP> jim@hcrvax.UUCP (Jim Sullivan) writes: >In article <366@telly.UUCP> evan@telly.UUCP writes: >> >> [ Evan is irrate about not being able to buy a home-grown product >> with local currency. ] > >But like most Canadian Software companies, a majority of their sales are outside >of Canada. The problems maintaining multiple price lists are just to much >of a headache. [...] > >I can't agree with the policy of "buy something else". That just sends >Canadian dollars outside the country. The price of something is always >relative, and it will cost you the same if you pay in Canadian dollars, >American dollars, Yen, or little rocks with holes in them! :-) I don't completely agree that keeping multiple price lists is too much of a headache. It can be done, and quite easily in these days of computerized accounting. BTW, I certainly don't see any problem with having lots of customers outside of the country. I must say that any company that can't handle the currency exchange (fairly) for the customer, especially a local one under these circumstances, isn't being very curteous. Companies that find themselves in the position of dealing in multiple currencies need only call the bank each morning to have an approximate exchange rate on hand all of the time. Another solution is to set one price, and accept either currency at this same price. I once worked for a company that did this successfully for some time. Other companies have less luck. Unfortunately customers on either one side or the other, or both, tend to think they are getting ripped off. In the end, I don't see why a Canadian company won't simply advertise only in Canadian dollars. Most American customers will be well aware of their currency advantages. I've _never_ heard of _any_ US company advertising only in Canadian dollars, and can't even imagine it ever happening, free trade or not :-). -- Greg Woods. UUCP: utgpu!woods, utgpu!{ontmoh, ontmoh!ixpierre}!woods, tmsoft!ixpierre!woods VOICE: (416) 443-1734 [h] LOCATION: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon S. Allbery) (10/17/88)
As quoted from <374@telly.UUCP> by evan@telly.UUCP (Evan Leibovitch): +--------------- | They MAKE a database system, and keeping track of pricing data is too much | of a headache? Do these people know how to use their own product? +--------------- I once heard that Ashton-Tate's internal database is written in -=> Unify. Companies which don't use their own products aren't a very good argument for anyone else using their products.... ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery, comp.sources.misc moderator and one admin of ncoast PA UN*X uunet!hal.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery <PREFERRED!> ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu allbery@skybridge.sdi.cwru.edu <ALSO> allbery@uunet.uu.net comp.sources.misc is moving off ncoast -- please do NOT send submissions direct (But the aliases are NOT on UUNET yet, use the aliases at backbone sites!)