crunch@well.UUCP (John Draper) (01/30/89)
I am reading all this flame between Mr Bralick, Rang, and a number
of others in this heated and controversial discussion. In some sense
I would be most embarrased to let the Soviets in on this discussion,
and yet I wish I could really talk about what is REALLY going on, but
right now, things are very sensitive. Especially with the plans
to add the Russkies to UUCP. As they say, you cannot build the
Brooklyn bridge overnight, and NetNews into the USSR is going to take
a LOT of time, as all those political issues are being hammered out
by OUR government and the Soviets. Tariffs have to be written, and
decisions have to be made as to who will pay for it. Currently, the
Soviets have access to Telenet only ONE hour per week, and not on
weekends. The reason is that Telenet must be payed in hard currency,
and the cost is about $75/hr connect time. The reason why not on
weekends is because of a stupid Soviet law that says you cannot do
business on Saturdays and Sundays, so the National Institute of Data
Exchange in Moscow has to shut down from 3 pm Saturday until 6 am on
Mondays. Moscow users of SF/Moscow teleport are only allowed 1 hour
per week because of an agreement between the Data Exchange and the
SF/Moscow teleport. However, this might soon change as alternate
circuits are being set up.
Re: sensitive technology transfer.. As a SFMT Subscriber, I signed
an agreement that I would abide by the Export restrictions layed out
by MY government, and the International organization called COCOM.
These laws change WEEKLY, and I am taking a very cautious approach by
not discussing ANY technology more advanced that 68000 or 286 CPU's.
For instance, one of the Soviet SFMT employees asked me questions about
the AT&T 3B system, and I declined to answer it, because it was related
to the 386. I promptly informed this person that I had no AUTHORITY
to discuss 386 technology, but told the Soviet person to contact another
SFMT user who has an Export license and was more familiar with 386 AND
the COCOM rules than I was.
Clients who use the SFMT system are carefully screened and checked out
by BOTH governments, and have a responsibility to abide by their rules.
I am also aware and expect that all my messages are monitored by BOTH the
KGB and the CIA (Or other agencys).
Because I was physically IN the USSR, and directly met the Soviet
officials (And the US officials), I have been put in a unique position
to be a "messenger boy" and pass messages between our countries. This
primarily happened by accident due to the situation in Armenia. So,
for the past 2 months, I've had daily contact with Soviet citizens and
officials helping the Armenian relief effort by making myself available
to pass important messages to US officials should that become necessary.
A certain amount of trust and respect has developed between myself, the
Moscow side of SFMT, and the operators of SFMT and the ICC. As a result,
I have a good trusting relationship with SFMT, dispite the fact that I
am a CUSTOMER.
For instance, if an American wishes to contact a Soviet SFMT user,
and apply for service, there is a sure possibility that SFMT will deny
service. The whole reason why SFMT came into existance was for it to
be used between already established Joint Ventures, such as Dr Gale's
group who uses it to communicate back to USA relating to the Chernoble
victims.
I was able to get on the Teleport was because I was invited to get on
by the Soviet Computer club called the ICC. As I was visiting the USSR,
word got out about my accomplishments relating to the Programmers Network,
and other activities I wish not to discuss right now. The Sovs really
want to REACH OUT and yet at the same time, they are afraid to do so,
because they are not sure how much they can stretch "Glasnost".
I have had many many requests for information on the Teleport, so
I want to clear that up for all those that asked me about it. So I will
try and explain how one gets that service, and how much it costs.
Before I do, I want to explain that I am a CUSTOMER of the SFMT and
I do NOT represent the SFMT in any way, so please don't think this is
a big commercial. First off... in order to be a customer, you will
have to already have a contact in Moscow to communicate with.
Not EVERY soviet can get on the Teleport. First, the Soviet party
has to apply to the Institute for Automated Data Exchage for the Telenet
access, and at the same time, apply to the Ministry of Finance for
a joint venture relationship. This process takes a LOT of time,
usually 4 to 6 months. Then, once an agreement is made as to who will
pay for the Soviets access, certain restrictions might apply. For
instance if the Soviet side cannot pay in hard currency, they would
only be able to use it for one hour a week. If the American side
wants the Sov side to have longer access times, then the American can
pay for the Soviet access $75/hour plus .45 per 1000 characters on
Telenet. All this has to be agreed to in advance. It's almost
impossible to get on the SFMT without actually going over there and
setting things up. It's a very long, expensive, and frustrating
experience. I hope I didn't scare anyone away, but there is one
more thing I can add. IF a Soviet institution who has SFMT access
already (Like the ICC), they can "Validate" a potentual SFMT user
and permit the USA user to have SFMT service. The COSTS to American
users are $15/hr plus $75/Month for a NON_COMMERCIAL account.
A number of people in the past have convinced me that they have the
clout and resources to assist the Sovs in the Amenian relief effort, so
I Emailed a note to ICC asking them to "Validate" certain American
instutitions. Only those organizations who were in position to help
out. I have not gotten anything back yet, nor do I know if they
got on yet.
And now, I want to try and explain some of the games the Soviets
like to play to get Americans over there and bring them Equipment.
Mr Bralick is right on many of his points, but I reserve comment on
SOME of his statements. The Soviets like to play this game of trying
to get ONE american group to compete with ANOTHER American group to help
them. We also play this game, and so do Companies who compete for
Military contracts. This can also be put to OUR advantage. The basic
fact is: The Soviets will do ANYTHING to get ANY type of equipment.
As to whether they will use it to NUKE us, is a little far fetched.
The Soviet government encourages its citizens to become computer literate,
as it was evident based on their MANY TV programs teaching the viewers
about computers. I've discovered that Soviets are very well informed
people, and I was amazed as to how much news they recieve from the USA,
and not ALL of it is BAD. This really surprised me.
Almost EVERYTHING the Soviets make is fairly shoddy and sub-standard,
either because of inferior materials or technology. This presents some
rather interesting (But solvable) problems for those adventurious folks
wanting to exploit the Soviet market. One other piece of advice when
dealing with Soviets: Always deal with just a FEW people, preferably
after meeting them in person. If, after you have returned to the USA,
and someone NEW comes into the picture, be insistant on asking this new
Soviet person to send you a description of his duties and responsibilities.
It is important to KNOW who you are dealing with at ALL times. It is not
uncommon to get a message from ONE group that introduces another Soviet
SFMT user.
And finally, Email is VERY NEW to the average Soviet business person,
so they are very inexperienced and a little aprehensive about what they
compose to Email to the USA. This comes from the many hundreds of years
of repression, and other facts of their life. As a result, it takes
constant "cattle prodding" to keep the Soviets interested. An
example of this was when I took all the American responses and questions,
and sent them over the Teleport to get answered, they took FOREVER to
get back to me (Over a month). One reason is the Language barrior,
and the other is the reluctance they have about saying a lot. They
tend to be very reserved, and not very talkative. Also, it could
just be that they are VERY BUSY people just like us. They also seemed
to be rather embarrased that they only have ONE HOUR of time a week on
the Teleport, and were very reluctant to discuss with me their usage
restrictions. Dealing with the Soviets is a new and interesting
experience to me, and I continuously have to remind the Soviets that
I'm just a naive American making assumptions on information that may or
may not be accurate. It was 2 monthes later that I realized that
the Sovs only had ONE hour a week access time on Teleport. And I found
this out when the Teleport people (Local office) called me up and told me.
I hope this helps to clear up any misconceptions I may have started
about the Sovs. I certainly enjoyed reading all the flames and
discussions about the ICC, and look forward to recieving NetNews #4
from the ICC. One more thing, it was pointed out that "comp.misc"
is not the newsgroup this should be discussed in. If thats so,
then what newsgroup IS the right one. I tried "sov.politics" or
whatever that was, and got a lot of discussion about missles, bombs,
and was completly turned off by such biased discussions, and chose
NOT to put anything in that newsgroup for fear of getting my ass torched
by all the flames. I wanted to start a more mature and open minded
discussion on the prospects of UUCP connections to the USSR in the future,
and chose "comp.misc" because I thought it was appropriate.
Anyway, I have to get back to reading the nets.... More later...
I really didn't mean to make this entry so long. I did want to comment
on other Net postings...
Dennis L. Mumaugh writes:
>Should a serious connection of USENET to the countries listed in
>the US export control act be made and this come to the attention
>of either the State Department OR the Department of Justice the
>flap could be serious enough to cause all major supporter of
>USENET to flinch.
You can rest assured that the State Dept and ALL US agencys will take
a LARGE part on how UUCP to USSR will be regulated if it ever happens.
Also, if UUCP gets approved, NetNews may NOT be approved. Even if
it Does get approved, only a FEW relevant newsgroups would be allowed
at first, and ALL site administrators would be informed of this.
The big issues here are COST, and who is going to pay for it. So
Mr Bralick, you have NOTHING to worry about regarding the "Commie"
takeover of UseNet. Besides, isn't it always a policy of the
Military Industrial establishment to "Know thy enemy" (being somewhat
sarcastic folks).
Leo Simon writes:
>It may sound all too well, but are you aware that the ordinary Soviet
>citizens may not own computer printers. It is illegal and punishable by
>law to a few years in prison. Do you still want to promote computer
>contacts with the Soviet Union?
And I say: "Bull puckey" -- Please substantuate this... Gee!! Then
those 5 programmers I met must be breaking the law.... They ALL had
printers, and why would Soviet TV be broadcasting an educational
program showing how to patch the IBM BIOS to work with a Bulgarian
printer if having them were illegal?? Someone has their wires crossed
somewhere....
John Draper
Programmers Network
....uunet!acad!well!crunchwbralick@afit-ab.arpa (William A. Bralick) (01/30/89)
In article <10531@well.UUCP> crunch@well.UUCP (John Draper) writes: ) ) [long and informative article deleted] ) Thank you for the clarification. Regards, -- Will Bralick : wbralick@afit-ab.arpa | If we desire to defeat the enemy, Air Force Institute of Technology, | we must proportion our efforts to | his powers of resistance. with disclaimer; use disclaimer; | - Carl von Clauswitz
rwojcik@bcsaic.UUCP (Rick Wojcik) (02/02/89)
In article <10531@well.UUCP> crunch@well.UUCP (John Draper) writes: >Leo Simon writes: >>It may sound all too well, but are you aware that the ordinary Soviet >>citizens may not own computer printers. It is illegal and punishable by >>law to a few years in prison. Do you still want to promote computer >>contacts with the Soviet Union? > >And I say: "Bull puckey" -- Please substantuate this... Gee!! Then >those 5 programmers I met must be breaking the law.... They ALL had >printers, and why would Soviet TV be broadcasting an educational >program showing how to patch the IBM BIOS to work with a Bulgarian >printer if having them were illegal?? Someone has their wires crossed >somewhere.... I hope that Leo clarifies his statement, too. I suspect he was referring to the fact that private citizens in the SU have been prohibited from owning any machines that could print text. This prohibition doesn't make much sense under glasnost, but I'm not sure that the laws have been changed. Have they? It may be the case that they are still on the books, but not enforced. I think that John should convey this point to the Soviets and find out what the current (and past) laws are that govern printing machines. I wish we all had the ability to put direct questions to them. -- Rick Wojcik csnet: rwojcik@atc.boeing.com uucp: uw-beaver!ssc-vax!bcsaic!rwojcik
usenet@cps3xx.UUCP (Usenet file owner) (02/03/89)
in article <9905@bcsaic.UUCP>, rwojcik@bcsaic.UUCP (Rick Wojcik) says: > > I wish we all had the ability to put direct questions to them. > Well, Rick, if everything goes as planned, I will be in Moscow at the end of this month. I would love to take questions over with me. I have also been communicating with the Soviets, (though mostly regarding the impending trip), and plan on continuing when I return. Your questions, queries, hopes for peace, and general greetings should be recieved IN MAIL by the 25th of Feb. I will post a report upon my return, and will mail personal answers to anyone who asks a question, (assuming that I can get back to your machine! Give me a GOOD trustworthy mail address.) I will not ask any questions that I feel would be overly confrontational. Wish me luck! Rob. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Raisch - TechnoJunkie & UnixNut| UseNet: {uunet,mailrus}!frith!raisch Network Software Group-301 Comp.Center| InterNet: raisch@frith.egr.msu.edu Michigan State University, E. Lansing | ICBMNet: 084 28 50 W / 42 43 29 N ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The meek WILL inherit the Earth, (Some of us have other plans). -----------------------------------------------------------------------------