vnend@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (D. W. James) (02/01/89)
In article <2421@cuuxb.ATT.COM> dlm@cuuxb.UUCP (Dennis L. Mumaugh) writes: )In article <5735@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> vnend@phoenix.Princeton.EDU )(D. W. James) writes: )> In article <2393@cuuxb.ATT.COM> dlm@cuuxb.UUCP (Dennis L. Mumaugh) writes: )> )[Not that it is true but much of alt.sex is illegal and considered )> )obscene by several states.] > )> Can you provide evidence to back this up, both parts? I just )> recently looked into alt.sex for the first time since its creation, )> and havn't seen anything that would be either (though the obscene )> part is admittedly *very* much open to debate.) But I haven't seen )> anything that could be construed as illegal per se... )My comment was in reference to several things. It is illegal to )allow persons under 18 access to "pornography". Hence, per se, )alt.sex is "illegal" if a person under 18 has access. Datum: how )many University undergraduates are under 18? How many university )machines that support the undergraduate comp sci 1A have alt.sex? Uh... That assumes that alt.sex is pornographic. This assumption is, in fact, false. Read: Attorney General's Commission on Pornography (1986). Final _____ Report. Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Justice, U.S. ______ Government Printing Office. Donnerstein, E., & Linz, D. G. (1986, December). The question of pornography. Psychology Today, pp. 56-59 __________ _____ Garry, A. (1978). Pornography and respect for women. Social ______ Theory and Practice, 4, 395-422 ______ ___ ________ _ Hovland, C. I., Lumsdaine, A. A. and Sheffield, F. D.. (1965) Experiments on Mass Communication. New York: John Wiley ___________ __ ____ _____________ and Sons. LaBelle, B. (1980). The propaganda of misogyny. In L. Lederer (Ed.), Take back the night: Women on pornography. New ____ ____ ___ _____ _____ __ ___________ York: William Morrow. Lederer, L. (1980), Take back the night: Women on pornography. ____ ____ ___ _____ _____ __ ___________ New York: William Morrow. McGuire, W. and Papageorgis, D.. (1961). The Relative Efficacy of Various Types of Prior Belief-Defense in Producing Immunity Against Persuasion. Journal of Abnormal and _______ __ ________ ___ Social Psychology 62:327-337 ______ __________ Steinem, G. (1980). Erotica and pornography: A clear and present difference. In L. Lederer (Ed.), Take back the night: ____ ____ ___ _____ Women on pornography (pp. 35-39). New York: William _____ __ ___________ Morrow. Weaver, J. B. (1987) (In press), A summary report on the effects of portrayals of female sexuality and violence against women on the general perception of women. Wyer, R. S., Jr., Bodenhausen, G. V., & Gorman, T. F. (1985) Cognitive mediators of reactions to rape. Journal of _______ __ Personality and Social Psychology, 48, 324-348 ___________ ___ ______ __________ __ Zillman, D. (1985, September). Effects of repeated exposure to _______ __ ________ ________ __ nonviolent pornography. Presented to the U. S. Attorney __________ ___________ General's Commission on Pornography in hearings at Houston, TX. Zillman, D., & Bryant, J. (1984). Effects of massive exposure to pornography. In N. M. Malamuth & E. Donnerstein (Eds.), Pornography and sexual aggression (pp. 115-138). Orlando, ___________ ___ ______ __________ FL: Academic Press. And then say the same thing. Or, if you like, I can send you the paper that this is the reference list to, it presents evidence that the material in soc.singles (this predates alt.sex) not only *not* pornographic, but in fact could be a valuable tool in fighting the effects of pornography. Basically, your arguement is fundimentally flawed, and your posting alarmist. )The US of A has laws prohibiting "pornography" involving )"children" under 18. This has been construed [in one case] to )include a father taking the picture of his 18 month old child in )the nude. Hence, if an article on alt.sex talks about two )teenagers boinking that can be construed to be illegal per se. Again, (and I'd like to see a reference to that court case, either you aren't telling us everything or there is something silly going on in some courthouse) there is a fundimental differnce between a photograph and an article, particularly if the article is discussing personel experiance. )Also, some states consider various explicit descriptions )"illegal". Also, Canada has some rather harsh laws regarding )importation of "obscene material". In this sense alt.sex could )be so considered. There are other riders on those 'explicit desciptions' clauses, such as no social value etc., that make them there as an aid in defining 'obscene' material. I think you'll find it is the obscenity, not the explicit descriptions, that are illegal. And Canada's laws on obscenity are as vague as our own. *If* the Canadian laws would consider alt.sex illegal (which I doubt) then it is the SA's job to not accept that news group, in which case no law is broken, eh? )Then of course, there is the S&M digest. {It IS rot13 but that's )a minor point}. Actually that is a major point. The Law (in its infinate wisdom) says that that is encrypted data, and as such in another catagory. Again though, you would have to prove that the material in S&M Digest is obscene for it to be illegal, not easily done. )Some countries have laws that prohibit encyphered communications. )Technically rot13 is a cipher. As someone else pointed out, so is ASCII. And, in any event, American sites are not legal liable for foriegn sites recieving these communications, only the sites inside that jurisdiction are. Straw man. )Of course, none of the above has ever met a recent court )challenge and "Free Speech" considerations are very much )involved. The point is that only one crusading States Attorney )or southren[sic] High Sheriff[sic] is all that is required to )make a stink. )=Dennis L. Mumaugh Agreed. The question is, would he have a federal foot to stand on? I don't think so. -- Later Y'all, Vnend Ignorance is the mother of adventure. SCA event list? Mail? Send to:vnend@phoenix.princeton.edu or vnend@pucc.bitnet Anonymous posting service (NO FLAMES!) at vnend@ms.uky.edu Love is wanting to make N (N>1) people happy.
jeffd@ficc.uu.net (jeff daiell) (02/04/89)
In article <6006@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>, D. W. James writes: > And then say the same thing. Or, if you like, I can send you the > paper that this is the reference list to, it presents evidence that > the material in soc.singles (this predates alt.sex) not only *not* > pornographic, but in fact could be a valuable tool in fighting the > effects of pornography. Speaking of the effects of pornography: let's look at the empirical evidence. When all anti-porn laws in Denmark were stricken many years back, a significant *drop* in sex crimes occurred. So, theories and conjectures aside, it is difficult to claim convincingly that pornography leads to anti-female violence -- indeed, the opposite would be indicated. Personally, my tastes run more toward THE COSBY SHOW or STAR TREK IV, but I don't feel entitled to censor others. > > > )The US of A has laws prohibiting "pornography" involving > )"children" under 18. This has been construed [in one case] to > )include a father taking the picture of his 18 month old child in > )the nude. Hence, if an article on alt.sex talks about two > )teenagers boinking that can be construed to be illegal per se. > > Again, (and I'd like to see a reference to that court case, > either you aren't telling us everything or there is something silly > going on in some courthouse) In all seriousness, when ISN'T there something silly going on in some courthouse? I have no doubt at all that the case above could have happened as stated. With burglars winning judgements against homeowners, I suspect any sort of looniness is possible. Just remember: the same people who made up the jury in that case also gave us Jimmy Carter, Dan Quayle, Jim Wright, Jerry Brown, Spiro Agnew, etc. > > )Of course, none of the above has ever met a recent court > )challenge and "Free Speech" considerations are very much > )involved. The point is that only one crusading States Attorney > )or southren[sic] High Sheriff[sic] is all that is required to > )make a stink. > )=Dennis L. Mumaugh > > Agreed. The question is, would he have a federal foot > to stand on? I don't think so. > I agree - once it got to Federal court, the defendant would be OK. But what about the lost time, legal fees, notoriety, etc.? Not to change the subject too dramatically, but I think we need a law that states that, when Constitutional rights are violated, the officials responsible, not the general treasury, will have to pay compensation. Jeff Daiell (opinions my own, until taxed away) INDEPENDENCE FOR TEXAS! -- HAVE YOU HUGGED A TECH AIDE TODAY?
ked@garnet.berkeley.edu (Earl H. Kinmonth) (02/04/89)
Perhaps the best test of the alleged pornography-violence thesis is
Japan. You can buy any number of items at your neighborhood bookstore or
from vending machines that would be considered violent pornography or
kiddy-porn in the US. Nevertheless, I have yet to meet a woman (Japanese
or foreign) who did not feel safer in Japan. Moreover, you can multiply
every violent crime statistic in Japan by a factor of TEN to allow for
under reporting, and it still will not be up the the level of more
restrictive countries such as the US.
E H. Kinmonth, Hist. Dept., Univ. of Ca., Davis Davis, Ca. 95616
916-752-1636/0776
Disclaimer: This is AmeriKa! Who needs a disclaimer!
Internet: ehkinmonth@ucdavis.edu
cck@deneb.ucdavis.edu
BITNET: ehkinmonth@ucdavis
UUCP: {ucbvax, lll-crg}!ucdavis!ehkinmonth
{ucbvax, lll-crg}!ucdavis!deneb!cckhassell@tramp.Colorado.EDU (Christopher Hassell) (02/05/89)
<19924@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> ked@garnet.berkeley.edu (Earl H. Kinmonth) writes:
# Perhaps the best test of the alleged pornography-violence thesis is
# Japan. You can buy any number of items at your neighborhood bookstore or
# from vending machines that would be considered violent pornography or
# kiddy-porn in the US. Nevertheless, I have yet to meet a woman (Japanese
# or foreign) who did not feel safer in Japan. Moreover, you can multiply
# every violent crime statistic in Japan by a factor of TEN to allow for
# under reporting, and it still will not be up the the level of more
# restrictive countries such as the US.
I've also heard stories about Japan. In a way it is a very non-individual
society. Their "urges" are only channeled off to the acceptible forms of
"excitement". <not by race or anything, I'm speaking about a VERY GENERAL
interpretation/view of their current culture>
I've heard stories about how some subways reek of sake, as businessmen are on
their way home, and how some manage to get bench-space because they've passed
out.
They certainly aren't better off from the urges that create a market for that
type of "literature". They aren't largely worse, though, from it either.
NOW, try to catch AMERICANS giving their privilages AND time AND freedom
AND non-restraint and you won't be looking at a bunch of satisfied porn-readers,
you will see a riot, made up of rapists and non-rapists alike.
[ If not a race-hate-riot, if that was the case. We're good at hate. :-< ]
[ BTW what are the effects of child-porn, if not only on the models, there? :-(]
# E H. Kinmonth, Hist. Dept., Univ. of Ca., Davis Davis, Ca. 95616
# 916-752-1636/0776
#
# Disclaimer: This is AmeriKa! Who needs a disclaimer!
#
# Internet: ehkinmonth@ucdavis.edu
# cck@deneb.ucdavis.edu
# BITNET: ehkinmonth@ucdavis
# UUCP: {ucbvax, lll-crg}!ucdavis!ehkinmonth
# {ucbvax, lll-crg}!ucdavis!deneb!cck
Dis here is uhmehhhhricuh! You can get whatever you want as long as you're
big enough to subdue it for a while, and not get caught! <gad that is gross>
As for alt.sex... One could think of it as a place to also talk about the
general issues relating to sex, unless an alt.prudes comes along :-).
So far... pornography has not found our little discussion hole around here.
### C>H> ###
PS:
I've often wondered what the "real" effects of porn are. I have seen and
heard little else than it being a "natural" type of drug that can lead to
addiction if not replaced with the *right* form of the "real" thing.
Hormones do have their effects...
Prostitution too, is a good question for this. But...
I'm personally tired of seeing some Headbanger-girls be treated like #$^*
and still walk around with everything tightened and showing off as if they
were only a magazine page, thinking that is all there is to sex and love.evan@telly.UUCP (Evan Leibovitch) (02/07/89)
In article <6006@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> vnend@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (D. W. James) writes: >In article <2421@cuuxb.ATT.COM> dlm@cuuxb.UUCP (Dennis L. Mumaugh) writes: > >)Also, some states consider various explicit descriptions >)"illegal". Also, Canada has some rather harsh laws regarding >)importation of "obscene material". In this sense alt.sex could >)be so considered. > > There are other riders on those 'explicit desciptions' >clauses, such as no social value etc., that make them there as an >aid in defining 'obscene' material. I think you'll find it is the >obscenity, not the explicit descriptions, that are illegal. And >Canada's laws on obscenity are as vague as our own. *If* the >Canadian laws would consider alt.sex illegal (which I doubt) then >it is the SA's job to not accept that news group, in which case no >law is broken, eh? As I have seen it, Canada's pornography laws allow border seizures of explicitly sexual material (ie, depicting penetration). They have also kept a few issues of Penthouse and Hustler out of the country. The only time I remember porno laws enforced against the written word was some time ago. A Toronto gay magazine was prosecuted for publishing an article which allegedly advocated soliciting young boys for sex. I don't remember the outcome, nor did I read the original article. I have no qualms carrying alt.sex on this Canadian site, though I will limit its access here to those over 18. (I will assume responsibilitty of enforcing this age limit to the best of my ability.) >)The point is that only one crusading States Attorney >)or southren[sic] High Sheriff[sic] is all that is required to >)make a stink. > Agreed. The question is, would he have a federal foot >to stand on? I don't think so. Who needs an attorney or legal grounds? Look at all the shit kicked up by one student offended by a joke. No courts necessary. -- _____________________________________________________________________ Evan Leibovitch, System Telly, located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario evan@telly.on.ca / {uunet!attcan,utzoo}!telly!evan And, in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."
childers@avsd.UUCP (Richard Childers) (02/08/89)
ked@garnet.berkeley.edu (Earl H. Kinmonth) writes: >Perhaps the best test of the alleged pornography-violence thesis is >Japan. You can buy any number of items at your neighborhood bookstore or >from vending machines that would be considered violent pornography or >kiddy-porn in the US. Nevertheless, I have yet to meet a woman (Japanese >or foreign) who did not feel safer in Japan. While I, too, feel that alt.sex does more to correct the situation between the sexes than its omission, I also know that there are a lot of unreported sex crimes in Japan, and that women are still in a position of helplessness vis-a-vis many sex-related crimes. Molestation on crowded trains is not uncommon, for instances. >Moreover, you can multiply every violent crime statistic in Japan by a factor >of TEN to allow for under reporting, and it still will not be up the the >level of more restrictive countries such as the US. True. >E H. Kinmonth, Hist. Dept., Univ. of Ca., Davis Davis, Ca. 95616 -- richard -- * "Do not look at my outward shape, but take what is in my hand." * * -- Jalaludin Rumi, 1107-1173 * * ..{amdahl|decwrl|octopus|pyramid|ucbvax}!avsd.UUCP!childers@tycho * * AMPEX Corporation - Audio-Visual Systems Division, R & D *