crunch@well.UUCP (John Draper) (02/12/89)
Ok people, Apparently there seems to be a big mis-understanding
here about Soviet access to UseNet or UUCP. And I want to interject
whats really going on. First off, for all intents and
purposes, UUCP into the USSR doesn't really officially exist, although
the technical means probably exists. First off, the US State department
of Commerce and probably a ton of OTHER USA agencys must first approve a
UUCP link. Not only must the US Government give approval, but ALSO the
Soviet Government. A LOT of political and economic issues must first be
resolved, like Who will pay for it?? What technology or types of data
transmissions would be authorised?? How is it going to be controlled??
Will it be monitored (Of course)?? and who will do it??
what other types of restrictions would be imposed?? The list goes on.
Then, I suspect that site administrators would ALSO have to be notified,
especially if they deal with sensitive material. I suspect the site
will be in the USA, and be tightly controlled.
I have been collecting all the articles on this subject and want to
make them available for anyone who wants them. I also have been getting
a lot of VERY INTERESTING discussions, and I hope it continues.
The reason why I posted all this stuff initially, was to solicit
discussion on the subject and to obtain a general idea of how the Soviets
presence on Usenet would be accepted by the many thousands of government,
Educational, and Corporate users. The tally looks something like this
so far:
89% are in favor of including the Soviets on Usenet in SOME restricted
way.
9% are NOT in favor of including the Soviets at all.
2% are RADICALLY OPPOSED like Daniel Harter and one other I cannot
remember right away.
For those that RADICALLY OPPOSE including Soviet UseNet access, think
of the possibility of "Know thy enemy". Lets not act like ostridges,
and stick our heads in a hole, I mean if the Russkies are that evil
and nasty, then wouldn't it be useful to know a little more about them??
How many grammar schools offer the Russian language. They know more
about US than we know of them! That puts us at a disadvantage.
Then, for those 89% who approve of SOME information exchange, this
can open ways for a more peaceful coexistance together. The market
potentual for old technology hardware and software are staggering, and
ANY company who exports to the foreign market can make a substantial
financial killing once the financial barriors are lifted. That could
be 2 or 3 years from now. Their main financial barrior is their
worthless Rubles.
And finally, I am NOT in any way involved in establishing a UUCP link,
but a number of authorized agencys are looking into the possibility of
future UUCP connections. I am only participating in a non-commercial
joint information exchange forum between a Soviet organization (The ICC),
and the Programmers Network. This relationship resulted from a meeting
with Alex Yegerov and Valerie Masters (SF/Moscow Teleport), who has
invited us (Programmers Network) to work with the ICC in providing this
forum. And during this time, the Armenian disaster struck which
mobilized a number of relief efforts to help them out. I had just gotten
SF/Moscow teleport service, and used it to pass important messages to USA
relief agencys about the important items needed in Armenia.
The ICC was able to gather together a few 286 machines and IBM-PC's
and wants to connect them into a network using UUCP of FidoNet (Old
technology) to provide a Child relocation network to help those children
find foster parents. At least, thats what I've been told, and a number
of people returning from Moscow has verified their intentions as much as
one can. They desperately needed volunteers to help out, but don't
have the financial resources to cover ALL the air fare. They can ONLY
pay 75% of Aeroflot fees going over, and ALL of the fare BACK to USA.
The volunteers must pay air fare to either Wash DC and NYC. If you
are willing to pay 25% of the $1100 (One way cost), they will pay
the return flight (NY or Wash DC only). They will ALSO pay for ALL
hotel fees and expenses while in USSR. A number of people have
volunteered, and we are coordinating the effort.
So, I want to thank Dave Bernard for the most interesting piece of
information posted here in "comp.misc" about Soviets owning printers.
But want to clear up something he said: "Also, members of the ICC, etc.
who would be using the Usenet" and I say that ICC probably won't be
using UseNet in the immediate future. And of course I want to thank
Mr Harter for the most humorous and scarey posting I've seen in "comp.misc"
in relation to the FLAME PENDING article. I WILL say something about
Xerox machines. People who are allowed to have them, have to keep them
in a locked room, and anything they copy has to be accounted for.
Their records must be made available for inspection at any time.
I started the Programmers Network to enhance the Global Village
concept and bring computer programmers together from all over the world.
When I explained what our goals were to Alex (Of the ICC), he invited
us (The programmers Network) to participate in an information exchange.
UseNet subscribers have a lot to gain from information about the computing
industry of the Soviet Union. I am just willing to spend the time
to do it, and at the same time, learn and study enough about the
USSR to learn the feasability of exploiting a large potentual market
within 3 or 4 years. So people should be thankful that I am willing
to spend the time and money to promote information exchange through
computers. I am NOT being payed to do this.
We Encourage:
a) Offers to help Armenian relief effort.
b) Short research papers, abstracts not falling under restrictions.
c) Special event notices like conferences, trade shows, and such.
d) Ideas for peaceful uses of computers in general.
e) Scientific papers on the environment, and how to protect it.
f) Information on Joint Ventures
And discourage and censor:
a) Unsulting messages that might offend the Soviets.
b) ALL technical information falling under COCOM trade restrictions
such as: 386, 68020, 68030, Crays, Vaxes and Program source code.
c) Any information I believe is misleading or untrue.
d) Ciphered messages (Of course), and information on ciphers.
Mr Lawyer states:
>[The above relates to computers since the International Computer Club
>(mainly in the USSR) is planning to join the net and we are discussing
>how to relate to them.]
Actually, they are NOT planning on joining the net, because they are
fully aware that new tariffs and laws have to be written first which
provides the necessary control over what information can be sent, and
it must mutually be approved by BOTH the USA and the Soviet government.
However, thats not to say that negotiations might be in progress as we
speak. Then, perhaps ICC can join UseNet provided of course that the
sites approve as well. In the meantime, because I visited the ICC
in the Soviet Union, and they were so hospitable, I have agreed to
pass "News Briefs" to anyone here in USA that wants to read them. If
people want to call them propaganda, thats fine with me, just
> them into /dev/null if you think so. Others find
them very interesting, and the organizations mentioned in them can be
contacted (through me) for additional specific information.
And now, speaking of the ICC, I have NetNews #4 I just recieved from
the ICC, and a request to post it on the net. It describes how the
ICC got started, which organizations support it, their goals, and how
they are helping the Armenian relief effort. It contains some pretty
interesting stuff. I have had numerious requests from UseNet subscribers
to post it into "comp.misc". It also explains some upcoming events in
both Moscow and here in the USA which might be of interest for those who
are contemplating doing business in the USSR in the future.
If anyone wishes to make initial contacts with any of the Soviet people
mentioned in the NetNews#4, I will pass them on!! At least for the
first few "exchanges", but I would expect that subsequent exchanges
would have to take place without me. Subscription to the SF/Moscow
Teleport allows Email exchange with Soviet partners in joint ventures.
The Teleport will NOT allow service to casual Western subscribers unless
they get "Validated" by a Soviet user. Validation usually happens
when a Soviet Teleport user notifies the Teleport that they wish to
communicate with them (Potentual Western user).
Also, if any Western institutions wants to publish an article
electronically to the Soviets, can Email their publication to me,
then allow for 2 to 3 days for it to be checked by someone who advises
me if it contains restricted technology. Usually, references to
68000 and 286 is OK (As of this time), and 68010, 68020, and 030's
as well as 32 bit 386 machines and their specifications will prevent
me from sending it. I will usually notify the sender. So, lets
use common sense folks, there is a LOT of other information that is
NOT taboo. Also, if anyone is interested, I will publish dates
and descriptions of Soviet Trade shows if anyone is interested. Just
let me know..
EMail your inquirys to: uunet!acad!well!crunch
John Draper
Programmers Networktag@symbas.UUCP (Arne Gisvold) (02/13/89)
In-reply-to: crunch@well.UUCP's message of 12 Feb 89 09:28:21 GMT Newsgroups: comp.misc Subject: Re: No UUCP to Soviet Union yet... References: <10686@well.UUCP> In article <10686@well.UUCP> crunch@well.UUCP (John Draper) writes: > Ok people, Apparently there seems to be a big mis-understanding > here about Soviet access to UseNet or UUCP. And I want to interject > whats really going on. First off, for all intents and > purposes, UUCP into the USSR doesn't really officially exist, although > the technical means probably exists. First off, the US State department > of Commerce and probably a ton of OTHER USA agencys must first approve a > UUCP link. Not only must the US Government give approval, but ALSO the > Soviet Government. A LOT of political and economic issues must first be > resolved, like Who will pay for it?? What technology or types of data > transmissions would be authorised?? How is it going to be controlled?? > Will it be monitored (Of course)?? and who will do it?? > what other types of restrictions would be imposed?? The list goes on. > Then, I suspect that site administrators would ALSO have to be notified, > especially if they deal with sensitive material. I suspect the site > will be in the USA, and be tightly controlled. > Usually, references to > 68000 and 286 is OK (As of this time), and 68010, 68020, and 030's > as well as 32 bit 386 machines and their specifications will prevent > me from sending it. I will usually notify the sender. So, lets > use common sense folks, there is a LOT of other information that is > NOT taboo. Also, if anyone is interested, I will publish dates > and descriptions of Soviet Trade shows if anyone is interested. Just > let me know.. Who are you kidding about USENET importance and access? Today you can subscribe to a number of Dial-In Usenet sites, all you need is a modem and possibly a VISA card (or other credit/charge card) and read all postings/newsgroups they desire - the USENET site has no way of knowing that the user is calling from USSR, and absolutely no way of censoring information about certain processors on the COCOM list, the billing address on the card could of course be anybody employed in a western country. BTW. a number of USENET sites are situated outside USA, and even in Universities with Eastern block students with access to USENET. USENET links are established to a number of BBS systems (for example FIDONET) over which USENET as such has absolutely no control. Regards -- ! Tor-Arne Gisvold - Symbiotic Computer Systems A/S ! adress : Nedre Bakklandet 75, p.o. box 354, N7001 Trondheim, Norway ! UUCP : ...mcvax!ndosl!symbas.UUCP!tag AppleLink : NOR0038 ! phone: +47-7-515544 FAX : +47-7-532027 BIX : tgisvold
aem@ibiza.Miami.Edu (a.e.mossberg) (02/15/89)
In <10686@well.UUCP>, <crunch@well.UUCP> wrote: > Ok people, Apparently there seems to be a big mis-understanding >here about Soviet access to UseNet or UUCP. And I want to interject >whats really going on. First off, for all intents and >purposes, UUCP into the USSR doesn't really officially exist, although >the technical means probably exists. First off, the US State department >of Commerce and probably a ton of OTHER USA agencys must first approve a >UUCP link. Not only must the US Government give approval, but ALSO the >Soviet Government. Why would the US have *anything* to say about a uucp link to SU? Especially when it would probably not be from the US at all. In any case, the SU is directly dialable, so just do it. Nothing on USENET is secret. > 89% are in favor of including the Soviets on Usenet in SOME restricted > way. > 9% are NOT in favor of including the Soviets at all. > 2% are RADICALLY OPPOSED like Daniel Harter and one other I cannot > remember right away. I support full unrestricted access for the SU of a full USENET feed. And I would encourage them to actively participate and to provide feeds to other Eastern European and Asian countries. aem a.e.mossberg aem@mthvax.miami.edu MIAVAX::AEM (Span) aem@umiami.BITNET (soon) Nixon to Reagan: Just destroy all the tapes.